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Sanguinius Full Rules for 30k


119 replies to this topic

#101
SkimaskMohawk

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Bud, I'm telling you the mathematical average output and results. I know the dice are random, but this informs me of how it should play out more often than not in terms of results.

If we're talking about goalposting, then it's been you. I tell you the math on something "he can't kill everything off the charge", I tell you the math on pretty much the most durable marine unit at max size " they're going to be in a spartan".

I understand youre finding an extreme disconnect from the fluff to tabletop, but the rules are solid and those solid rules need to be played around. You sent 485 against 550 (at least) of points, of which vhalen hampers you explicitly. You're not just going to mow through it. Game Mechanics man.

You're sinking into hyperbole if you think a character was ruined because he got explicitly countered when he charged by himself. Like actually just don't charge stubborn units and you'll, on average, wipe them from combat res. It doesn't matter if they have 20 breachers with fist on sarge, you kill 4, get the 2 bonus and sweep them. Just don't charge stubborn or fearless units solo man.

Again dice are random, so you always want to hedge your bets, or accept poor outcomes as a chance. But the guy is literally a massacre on wings.

If I were you I'd be coming out of that game understanding that yes, sang slightly underperformed (he should have killed 4 with spear instead of 3), but the take away is that stubborn or fearless will hold down any primarch. And that reading all the math I've been supplying you with, you can make more informed choices about what he can do.

But man, again, the stubborn. Out of everything, avoid that and the fearless units that are large.

#102
Blindhamster

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Soooo.

Like seriously guys. Sanguinius melee output shouldn't be in question. He is great. I don't really see why we are arguing about that.

Is he perfect? No, his rules don't quite hit the mark and he definitely feels over costed.

I'll repeat my suggestions for how i think he could be fairly changed, hopefully with some constructive thoughts and less arguing.

- Fix his pistol to be a pistol (with a pistols range too) - its a mild nerf to range and shots, but makes it a usable weapon in the entire game, which seems fitting for a primarch, the bonus attack when using either sword also helps make them more balanced vs the spear in a reasonable way.
- Give him hit and run (probably instead of the invulnerable save reroll) - this is a defensive nerf, but makes him more usable and also fits with how something with wings really should fight.
- Maybe just flat out say he has exactly the same ability as Corbulo and ONCE PER GAME can reroll a single dice. - gives him the foresight type ability that honestly I think most BA players expected, especially as its been talked up in books more recently, whilst not allowing it to be an OP ability

He loses a few bits a little, but is a bit more thematic.

Edited by Blindhamster, 22 March 2019 - 03:30 PM.

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#103
LukeTheButcher

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I can honestly say I am finding the whole "Sagy isn't good enough" argument hilarious.

 

Post 1st rd charge (which is epic and very close to OTT) Sagy is as stated as Russ and geared to mowing down/breaking/chasing down hordes with Rampage, Angelic Presence and jetpack distances.

 

And while Russ is considered by some to be broken, I suspect that Sagy can deliver a lot more hurt (ie, more likely to break the unit and be able to charge again and again, maximising use of his insane Charge buffs).

 

If anything, in my humble opinion, I am surprised that Sagy doesn't do more for his Legion (i.e. like unlocking XYZ as troop choices). That is where I find him lacking, not in raw DPS :-)

 

The pistol is funny though. As is the fact Sagy gets a spear he can throw, while Russ is noted for having thrown his spear away. Tickles me. 


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#104
Omega-soul

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Also, I have to wonder, what would those 4-5 attacks you'd rather have look like?

Something like deathfire (without overspill as per FAQ) maybe improved variant up to 3 wounds. lets call it something like deathinferno

 

Overall - 4 atack base 5 on charge (so no Sire of blood angels) -  profile like S8 ap2 rending shred supercrafted (re-roll all hits) deathinferno

 

Also drop Him and Russ to WS8

 

So ideally I see him making reliably 3 wounds/hullpoints (so 1 successful attack) to any one model a turn.

 

Then there is two different options depending on what you think balanced with that profile

1) Hit'n run (so that would be not about power creeping for attacks and strengh - but pure mobility (as all other jump primarchs have))

or

2) If no hit'n'run - fight mode to deal with hordes - single autohit all base-to base models (despite some opinions Sanguinius have a small base for a 5-6-7 infantry models max) without deathinferno of course.

 

Something like that.

 

 

 

 

 

but the take away is that stubborn or fearless will hold down any primarch.

You getting really close to my point - I don't expect from other primarchs (except maybe Angron) to complete this task. Not because it said so in books - but because of unit specialization and his price.


Edited by Omega-soul, 22 March 2019 - 04:48 PM.


#105
Purge the Daemon

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I can honestly say I am finding the whole "Sagy isn't good enough" argument hilarious.

Post 1st rd charge (which is epic and very close to OTT) Sagy is as stated as Russ and geared to mowing down/breaking/chasing down hordes with Rampage, Angelic Presence and jetpack distances.

And while Russ is considered by some to be broken, I suspect that Sagy can deliver a lot more hurt (ie, more likely to break the unit and be able to charge again and again, maximising use of his insane Charge buffs).

If anything, in my humble opinion, I am surprised that Sagy doesn't do more for his Legion (i.e. like unlocking XYZ as troop choices). That is where I find him lacking, not in raw DPS :-)

The pistol is funny though. As is the fact Sagy gets a spear he can throw, while Russ is noted for having thrown his spear away. Tickles me.


He does unlock dawnbreakers as troops and army wide double jump pack when you have a jump pack row is a pretty good army buff.

#106
Omega-soul

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He does unlock dawnbreakers as troops and army wide double jump pack when you have a jump pack row is a pretty good army buff.

 

 

I can't find in his rules part when he makes dawnbreakers - troops. Can I have a source?

 

And what about non jump pack units? What Sanguinius do to a humble tacticals/veteran/terminators? I guess - being so expensive that you don't have spare points for tacticals.



#107
Blindhamster

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It's in his sire of the legion rule in the book.

Sanguinius doesn't do anything major for non jump troops, but most primarchs don't do stuff for lots of their units. No biggy, if you want to go heavy on non jump infantry you probably want to use raldoron instead.

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#108
Purge the Daemon

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Very few primarchs actually have entire army wide bonuses so it's more than fine as many bas will be running sanguinius with many jump units and you have a right to use it in. He kind of forces a jump retinue regardless since hes not corax.

#109
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You getting really close to my point - I don't expect from other primarchs (except maybe Angron) to complete this task. Not because it said so in books - but because of unit specialization and his price.

 

But angron gets bogged down even worse...he gets 5.8 on the turn he charges and then 3.8 after (4.3 if you killled their champ in a challenge). Sang gets 7.1 on the charge (with encarmine) and then 5.01 every turn after. Angron takes 6 rounds to kill 20 fearless guys, Sang takes 4.

 

Now if you want to say Angron is drastically cheaper, sure. He also has less wounds, less armour, moves slower, charges slower no synergy and no FoC unlocks. He just kills units really well (worse than sang though) and vehicles+characters the best. 

 

So once again. Don't throw him against fearless blobs without an immediate plan for follow up. No primarch can one hit a blob, or even 10 fearless guys.

 

And since you play against Iron Warriors, please don't ever charge Perturabo w/ forgebreaker. Also he gives his army stubborn, so that's going to suck too 



#110
Omega-soul

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You getting really close to my point - I don't expect from other primarchs (except maybe Angron) to complete this task. Not because it said so in books - but because of unit specialization and his price.

 

But angron gets bogged down even worse...he gets 5.8 on the turn he charges and then 3.8 after (4.3 if you killled their champ in a challenge). Sang gets 7.1 on the charge (with encarmine) and then 5.01 every turn after. Angron takes 6 rounds to kill 20 fearless guys, Sang takes 4.

 

Now if you want to say Angron is drastically cheaper, sure. He also has less wounds, less armour, moves slower, charges slower no synergy and no FoC unlocks. He just kills units really well (worse than sang though) and vehicles+characters the best. 

 

So once again. Don't throw him against fearless blobs without an immediate plan for follow up. No primarch can one hit a blob, or even 10 fearless guys.

 

And since you play against Iron Warriors, please don't ever charge Perturabo w/ forgebreaker. Also he gives his army stubborn, so that's going to suck too 

 

Again - convinience - If only I could switch Sanguinius weapon right in the battle - so what about Spear in same circumstances?

Because we already know that Angron can handle leviathan better than Sanguinius with spear.

 

This is also part of the problem i said earlier you have to know before hand what weapon to pick.



#111
Indefragable

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I got my Limited Edition base for Sanguinius today.

 

My favorite detail of the entire model now is the fact that Sangy is gripping the daemon's right* horn with his left hand, thus rotating the daemon's head 900.

 

...he basically broke it's neck with a single twist and the sword/spear stab is just for fun.

 

 

That's Ahnold-with-no-shirt-challenging-the-Predator levels of bad- :cuss.

 

 

*so "port" side, to use nautical terms


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#112
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Ka'Bandha

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#113
SkimaskMohawk

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You getting really close to my point - I don't expect from other primarchs (except maybe Angron) to complete this task. Not because it said so in books - but because of unit specialization and his price.


But angron gets bogged down even worse...he gets 5.8 on the turn he charges and then 3.8 after (4.3 if you killled their champ in a challenge). Sang gets 7.1 on the charge (with encarmine) and then 5.01 every turn after. Angron takes 6 rounds to kill 20 fearless guys, Sang takes 4.

Now if you want to say Angron is drastically cheaper, sure. He also has less wounds, less armour, moves slower, charges slower no synergy and no FoC unlocks. He just kills units really well (worse than sang though) and vehicles+characters the best.

So once again. Don't throw him against fearless blobs without an immediate plan for follow up. No primarch can one hit a blob, or even 10 fearless guys.

And since you play against Iron Warriors, please don't ever charge Perturabo w/ forgebreaker. Also he gives his army stubborn, so that's going to suck too
Again - convinience - If only I could switch Sanguinius weapon right in the battle - so what about Spear in same circumstances?
Because we already know that Angron can handle leviathan better than Sanguinius with spear.

This is also part of the problem i said earlier you have to know before hand what weapon to pick.

sang does 6.7 off the charge, then the exact same 3.8ish. Every other round you'd get a freebie off the spear, boosting it to 4.8. So sang does it better either way

#114
Luna707

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Has anyone mathhammered Sangy vs. Ka'Bandha yet?


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#115
SkimaskMohawk

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Assuming no tides of madness.

Sang on the charge: 1.9 with encarmine or 2.2 with telesto (shouldn't be a spear proc). Molten blood shouldn't do any damage. Kha strikes back, doing 1.3. After that, the average will be kha doing 1.9 and sang doing 1.1 with encarmine or 0.5 with telesto. Khabanda takes him.

Won't do him on the charge as it's even more in his favour. Waiting until late game might swing it back, but without rival rules of his own, sang eats it.
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#116
Blindhamster

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It's interesting, because sang takes a totally unhurt ka'banda later in signus and absolutely destroys him at the eternity gate.

They did say that this version of sang is him normally whereas he will probably get an unshackled version later. So perhaps that version will be able to defeat ka'banda.

It does seem really dumb that sanguinius doesn't get the same hatred and preferred enemy stuff tbh.

It's also dumb because ka'banda is cheaper, and it's a pretty one sided fight even if sanguinius has every situational advantage going on.

How is the maths if sanguinius uses moonsilver?

Edited by Blindhamster, 23 March 2019 - 06:14 PM.

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#117
SkimaskMohawk

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I uh, totally forgot about the anti daemon sword lol. I also have a feeling that Fighting him late game makes a ton of difference.

Against no buff kha, you do 1.45 on the charge and 1.15 after. Note that these are already doubled and you need to get through the invul first. Don't throw away the spear. So kha is still better in a duel vs him until the late game

Against -1 stat you get 2.1 with sword on charge and the spear stays the same, after you do 1.3 with encarmine and the spear when it procs. It drops when it doesn't, significantly.

Against -2 stat you get 2.4 with encarmine and the exact same with the spear on the charge. Subsequent turns gives you 1.4 with encarmine and 1.65 with spear when it procs, 1.1 when it doesn't.

Moonsilver against -2 gives the best result off charge at 2.97 and 2.31 post.

#118
TheRealMcCagh

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This might sound silly, but does Ka'Bandha buff Sang with Miasma of Rage?



#119
Blindhamster

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It doesn't specify daemon models, So yes.

And.. The whole thing of daemons getting worse late game fits well with how the duel goes in fear to tread. Fights him early and loses. Fights him again later and wins thanks to the daemons form being less juiced. Kind of cool.

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#120
Argel Tal

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I don't think it works on Sangui cause in miasma of rage, it says that it affects the rampage "granted by Crimson fury dominion"



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