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War Zone Vigilus: Abaddon vs Calgar


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#51
sfPanzer

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But wasn't the GSC uprising triggered way too early by the Ork invasion? The nid fleet might still be a long way off, no?


Exactly.

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If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#52
Excessus

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But wasn't the GSC uprising triggered way too early by the Ork invasion? The nid fleet might still be a long way off, no?


Exactly.

 

 

Oh really... teehee.gif


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#53
Triszin

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Pretty sure the article is written from a imperial propaganda view point.
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#54
sfPanzer

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Pretty sure the article is written from a imperial propaganda view point.

 

Nah from an imperial propaganda view point they wouldn't have told us that Abaddon might have a chance and has the superior fleet etc.

That kind of propaganda is also Regimental Standard material. This article is just to artifically hype up a duel that might not even happen. ^^


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#55
librisrouge

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While I'm an ardent loyalist, the only way that Calgar wins this fight is if he is trying to buy 10 seconds of time for a squad of hellblasters to nuke Abaddon.


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#56
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Feeling vindicated when I said Vigilus would become Calgar vs Abbadon. 



#57
Ascanius

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At Vigilius, Abbadon has a numerically superior and more dangerous fleet that is in an advantageous position to strike all the loyalist ships as they arrive; Calgar likely dies before making planet fall.

 

Calgar is already on Vigilus.



#58
chapter master 454

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Well...no-one is going to say it but...do we know where the gauntlets of ultramar actually came from? Because I remember it being a trophy from a chaos champion. In before Calgar's fall to chaos to beat abbadon so the chaos gods can finally claim his soul? Literally his Faustian bargain to fall to chaos so he can uphold vigilus, not fail his primarch and actually hold the line? Suddenly Dark Angels and Ultramarines both taste the sting of corruption from within. 

 

Could be cool too to see the true power of the gauntlets of ultramar actually being some form of daemon weapon. Though GW wouldn't be cool with it but instead make them weaponised saints of silliness. Would be cool to see the gauntlets represent another "first sin", Murder being Wrath but the gauntlets awakening their true power and dark secret being the daemons of the first arrogance (Pride).

 

Pride of his own accomplishments, welling from within as he thinks in his last moments...thinking back to what he did...he had accomplished. Everything he had done. Thrown aside by his primarch. Called a failure by his gene-father. "Those were mine...not yours. I DEFENDED the imperium from the tyranids when they first arrived. I was the one defending the imperium while you slept...while you slept and your plans furthered in the dark...plans you never made to help the imperium but yourself!"

He clearly feels his ego has been trodden over pretty hard yet he has achieved great things, lauded as the most influential chapter master of all chapters. Dante may have age but yet Calgar has shown his acumen and determination, his willingness to sacrifice whatever it takes to make sure the imperium doesn't fall. He took grave wounds during the tyranids wars, once only accepting the bare minimum care before storming back into the command centre (where if I remember lore right they were still trying to patch him up). He stood before an avatar of khaine and bested it. Yes, many have done the same but lets not pass that off as some mere casual front flip gabriel angelos style, to take one of those things down is a fairly big deal. You fought a shard of the god of war for the eldar, and won. Whoever does this is clearly someone of great standing and ability (not even you Cato Sicarius, former 2nd company captain of the ultramarines chapter).

He has even gone toe-to-toe with a swarmlord and while yes, it wasn't exactly pretty it stands to reason that it took taking all of his limbs to stop him fighting. As comical as the scene may seem (thanks monty python), it can easily be viewed as a desperate and dramatic fight. He still didn't die from it.

 

I do seem to think there may be some bashing on Calgar due to his age but...that isn't it. He is an old character but so is abbadon. So being around a long time doesn't hurt the character (and I mean in terms of the game itself, not lore...lol we throw millennia, century and decades around like loose change in 40k!), so the core of it must stem from something else which I likely point to bad writers and his heritage of being an Ultramarine.

Lets not forget, Abbadon may of been around for 10k years...so not exactly very active then huh? 13 crusades to take one planet? Really? Wow...some tactical genius there. I mean, we blow up planets in the Imperium for giggles and dares in return for pats on the head and purity seals for crying out loud and Abbadon couldn't take 1 planet? 10k year...one planet...not looking so hot there boyo. I mean, if blowing it up was the goal then why was there any need for invasion forces other than big ships with bigger cannons? Oh right, Plot Shields...the ultimate method in "we can't write a better reason".

 

I get it, Abbadon has been around a long time and has a sweet sword. Not like he's mastered it yet though from what the rules seem to imply (which likely is the reason he isn't able to delete things with it so freely) and the claws of horus have some actual pedigree behind them, though mainly because they did something extremely noteworthy (in fact, kind of the de-facto tool in our current state of affairs in 40k).

 

I am standing with Calgar here purely because it seems no-one will stand with him purely because people just want to see the Ultramarines lose something. That would be cool and good but...it doesn't stand to write off any character based on time. Emperor was around WAY longer than anyone remembers and despite his experience, despite his abilites: Still got slammed by effectively a baby in terms of time. Chaos gods or not, he still lost and he still failed. Abbadon is arrogant. Calgar is Stoic. Abbadon is full of himself. Calgar is sure of himself.

10,000 years is a long time to be alive compared to 300. Calgar however hasn't been resting on his laurels and been active them 300 years. Abbadon was spending most of his 10,000 trying to negotiate with chaos folk. Heck, didn't he lose a TON of momentum once he destroy cadia purely because those that followed him purely did so because "nothing better to do since we are stuck here". It certainly again won't be pretty for Calgar's limbs again (especially since he will need new steel cable grafted in...ow) but it won't be one sided.

 

Sadly, new models mean both won't be going anywhere in terms of their souls position, if they did I would give GW a round of applause for the sheer audacity but the fight clearly won't have a winner and loser. Just survivors. Calgar, once more beaten and broken...feeling the sting of failure. Abbadon, battered, bruised and certainly looking for a blood bag will feel the disgrace of having been matched by a loyalist dog who is beneath him, having been matched by a dog of Gulliman.

Both with taste failure. Both will return again. Both will not forget that day.


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#59
Sete

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Oh don't worry. Calgar won't lose. Heavens forbid. We would hear "our" spiritual liege screaming all the way to Pluto.
Statos Quo will be maintained, and focus will move to other warzone bringing it up to the current timeline. It will be our new 1 minute to midnight setting.

Edited by Sete, 14 March 2019 - 09:15 PM.

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#60
Marshal Loss

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Could be cool too to see the true power of the gauntlets of ultramar actually being some form of daemon weapon.

 

Please no. We already had that pulled with the Axe of Morkai. Not again.

 

 

Lets not forget, Abbadon may of been around for 10k years...so not exactly very active then huh? 13 crusades to take one planet? Really? Wow...some tactical genius there. I mean, we blow up planets in the Imperium for giggles and dares in return for pats on the head and purity seals for crying out loud and Abbadon couldn't take 1 planet? 10k year...one planet...not looking so hot there boyo. I mean, if blowing it up was the goal then why was there any need for invasion forces other than big ships with bigger cannons? Oh right, Plot Shields...the ultimate method in "we can't write a better reason".

 

You fundamentally misunderstand the way time works in this setting. There is so much wrong with your analysis here I don't know where to start, so I won't. Read Talon of Horus and Black Legion.

 

I get it, Abbadon has been around a long time and has a sweet sword. Not like he's mastered it yet though from what the rules seem to imply (which likely is the reason he isn't able to delete things with it so freely)

 

The rules do not imply anything. They are just that: rules. That's like saying the rules imply that a Space Marine can only kill a handful of unmodified humans on the tabletop when we know the opposite to be true from the lore. Drach'nyen is an absolute monster of a weapon in Abaddon's hands. By that same logic, Abaddon wins every time, because Calgar has never been better than him on the tabletop in terms of single combat.

 

Anyway, obviously neither can die, but if it were a no-holds fight to the death: Abaddon would slaughter him. That isn't an indictment on Calgar, it's just that Abaddon is the chosen of the pantheon and wields the kind of weapons you find in a DND party where people are trying to game the system. They are both great commanders and I can imagine a fantastic campaign taking place between them (if GW actually writes it well...) but Chaos has always had a stronger emphasis on personal prowess in combat and Abaddon is one of the greatest warriors ever to don power (terminator) armour.


Edited by Marshal Loss, 14 March 2019 - 09:48 PM.

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#61
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id like to see Dante come to save the day and get killed covering Calgars retreat leaving Vigilius in the hands of Chaos with Calgar cut of from his chapter and holding the glactic north now cut off from terra



#62
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At the climax of their duel, both get turned into that-which-shall-not-be-named and a faint voice from the off cackles in a hand-rubbing manner "just as planned".


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#63
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At the climax of their duel, both get turned into that-which-shall-not-be-named and a faint voice from the off cackles in a hand-rubbing manner "just as planned".

Both of them get turned into Cato Sicarius?


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#64
Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla

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I think that Abbadon should get the upper hand in the fiight with Calgar. But when he is to lay the final blow, Trazyn the Infinite shows up and releases the Fulgrim clone from  tessaract vault. Fulgrim II defeats already worn out Abby who teleports back to VS and escapes. Everybody is like "Say whaaat" as Fulgrim II explains to be loyal to the Emperor. Smurfs distrust him and bring him to RG, who is unsure what to do. After long deliberations, due to Fulgrims' II acts on Vigilus and Cawl's advice RG orders creation of Primaris Emperor's Children. Next campaign will be Imperium Nihilus: Clone War, with loyalist EmpCh facing traitor EmpCh on a world called Doppelganger with a duel of two Fulgrims. Faced with the previous himself, traitor Fulgrim understands how much Chaos scrcensored.gifd him and goes "I used to be so pretty. Damn you Chaos". And so there are two loyalist Fulgrims and two loyalist EmpCh forces. Best fluff ever, Cato Sicarius dies.

More seriously, when was the last time somebody important got killed? Most recently: Yvraine - and she got resurrected; Vect - and he got resurrected; Calgar - and he got revived. Heroes never die!


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#65
sarabando

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More seriously, when was the last time somebody important got killed? Most recently: Yvraine - and she got resurrected; Vect - and he got resurrected; Calgar - and he got revived. Heroes never die!

 captain tycho?



#66
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I would say they didn't "primatize" Calgar to kill him, but that's like saying the Giants didn't sign OBJ to trade him ;)

 

No way Calgar dies, so he's either exfiltrated or actually uses himself as bait like someone suggested to step back and have the Hellblasters bring down the pain. Would be a nice example of solo grandstanding of Chaos versus the teamwork of the Ultramarines. Chaos likely getting the edge, both have to back off and lick their wounds for Round 3.


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#67
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I think that Abbadon should get the upper hand in the fiight with Calgar. But when he is to lay the final blow, Trazyn the Infinite shows up and releases the Fulgrim clone from tessaract vault. Fulgrim II defeats already worn out Abby who teleports back to VS and escapes. Everybody is like "Say whaaat" as Fulgrim II explains to be loyal to the Emperor. Smurfs distrust him and bring him to RG, who is unsure what to do. After long deliberations, due to Fulgrims' II acts on Vigilus and Cawl's advice RG orders creation of Primaris Emperor's Children. Next campaign will be Imperium Nihilus: Clone War, with loyalist EmpCh facing traitor EmpCh on a world called Doppelganger with a duel of two Fulgrims. Faced with the previous himself, traitor Fulgrim understands how much Chaos scrcensored.gifd him and goes "I used to be so pretty. Damn you Chaos". And so there are two loyalist Fulgrims and two loyalist EmpCh forces. Best fluff ever, Cato Sicarius dies.
More seriously, when was the last time somebody important got killed? Most recently: Yvraine - and she got resurrected; Vect - and he got resurrected; Calgar - and he got revived. Heroes never die!


Then the clone of fulgrim pulls off his mall to reveal he is alpharius
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#68
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Abaddon should absolutely cream Calgar. Not from just and in-universe fluffstication based on the power of his wargear and his power as the chosen of chaos; but to make 40k a better fictional universe that sticks to its own values - that is, this is brutal universe, where things never are easy or how the 'good' guys wanted them to turn out.

 

Abaddon is the symbol of everything that Chaos promises. His entire worth as a character and 'the' big bad guy in 40k is that he has overcome Chaos, and continues to do so everyday, in not giving into letting the gods take control of him, but using the power of the warp and its accouterments and baubles on his terms. He is the promise of Chaos made manifest, the potential power of humanity and the warp unlocked, the one tantalizing exception to the rule that Chaos universally corrupts. He is perversely everything the Emperor wanted mankind to become - strong enough to resist the gods on their own. The only problem is that his goal is to burn the Imperium for spiting him and his brothers. Abaddon's partially Astartes-supremacist ideology is also vindicated in his eyes with his current power; the angels which made this empire deserve to rule it on their own strength, no gods or Emperors.

 

I want Guilliman to stumble backwards in horror at the power Abaddon has. A mere Astartes has done all this, gained such power, through nothing but their own sheer force of their will. And a part of the Emperor is more proud of this lowly creation, who has achieved so much and proven what mankind could be, than the failures and weakness seen in his engineered sons.

 

40k thrives on and is at its best when you can hear the universe laughing at the irony of it all; and when who is is right, who has the might and who will win the fight are truly, truly up in the air.

 

Tell me, will Drach'nyen, strip the soul of Guilliman in a single strike, let alone Calgar? I believe it has every right, both from an in-universe power-level justification as a weapon created from the affront of The First Murder, and a meta-thematic standpoint in view to make 40k a better fictional universe.


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#69
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Abbadon got beat by a girl and Calgar isn't geriatric like Sigismund or buck naked like clone Horus so I gotta say advantage Calgar. Jokes aside though it's way past due that these two scrapped in a cannon scenario.



#70
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Abbadon got beat by a girl and Calgar isn't geriatric like Sigismund or buck naked like clone Horus so I gotta say advantage Calgar. Jokes aside though it's way past due that these two scrapped in a cannon scenario.

that girl is a living saint, who is basically a greater deamon of the emperor.

 

get it right.


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#71
Excessus

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Abbadon got beat by a girl and Calgar isn't geriatric like Sigismund or buck naked like clone Horus so I gotta say advantage Calgar. Jokes aside though it's way past due that these two scrapped in a cannon scenario.

 

Buck naked? He was fully armoured and had freaking Worldbreaker!


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#72
Tamiel

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*People saying Guilliman vs Abbadon would be a close fight*

200.gif
 


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#73
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*People saying Guilliman vs Abbadon would be a close fight*

 

Well why not? Are the Primarchs somehow unimpeachable in their power? It makes the most sense from a narrative and thematic standpoint (not to mentions his wargear alone being crazy-powerful). Anything else seems like a weakness with following through with the narrative and progression of Abaddon's character just to keep the Primarchs special snowflakes for fans.


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Alis aquilae, judicium - On eagle's wings, judgement.
Ex astra, mortis - From the stars, death.

Fiat justitia, etiam mundi mori - Let there be justice, even though worlds die.

 

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W40k - a gothic military fantasy, in that order.

 

Analysis of the 41st Millennium - boltguns, chainswords, Space Marine capabilities

 


#74
Blindhamster

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*People saying Guilliman vs Abbadon would be a close fight*

 

Well why not? Are the Primarchs somehow unimpeachable in their power? It makes the most sense from a narrative and thematic standpoint (not to mentions his wargear alone being crazy-powerful). Anything else seems like a weakness with following through with the narrative and progression of Abaddon's character just to keep the Primarchs special snowflakes for fans.

 

 

honestly? yeah it matters, in talon of horus, when they have their rumble with clone horus, it takes a decent sized group of the most badass of badass chaos marines to take him down, people say abaddon killed him - abaddon landed the finishing blow, but it took them all. It's naive to think otherwise. Likewise, Abaddon only beats sigismund because sigi is old and slow, and even then sigi almost wins, and all the chaos marines in the vicinity are "dealt with" to hide that fact in the aftermath.

HH rules get it right, no marine, even sigismund at the height of his ability can defeat a primarch in one on one fighting. To have that change will actually not be good for the setting, regardless of what some might desperately want.

Should Abaddon be able to beat Calgar? Yeah, I would say he should be able to defeat any loyalist, except for Guilliman, whom I think he should be able to badly bloody, but not defeat.

 

 


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#75
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*People saying Guilliman vs Abbadon would be a close fight*

200.gif

 
 
I know right Abaddon would Surely win how many fights has Guliman even won!!
 
I jest, Guliman should have the upper hand but there more at play than Guliman's Superior Stature, Abaddon has brought the demon primartchs to heel Abaddon is Not only A masterful Fighter hes a strategist and has been fighting this war longer than any primartch. he has no limits he threw a priceless relic of incredible power into a planet to ensure Victory. there isn't much he wouldn't do to get the upper hand
 
Look at the books.
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Edited by Guzzlrr, 15 March 2019 - 01:01 AM.

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