143 replies to this topic

[CCE1981]

...that is 2 or three units now unable to fire overwatch, of take advantage of For The Greater Good. I think that is the rule where they fire overwatch for other units.

Pretty sure they can still use for the greater good even if the target cant overwatch. Rule only specifies when a unit declares a charge a unit in 6 can fire overwatch as if charged. So unless you cancel them too they can still greater good.

I think that was what he was describing, firing at 3 different units so those 3 units couldn’t fire using “For Greater Good.”

[sfPanzer]

The only units you realistically stop from using Overwatch that way though are Firewarriors since they are the only infantry units to take models out of. Broadsides, Commanders, Riptides, Drones etc will happily continue doing what they always do.

[Subtleknife]

...that is 2 or three units now unable to fire overwatch, of take advantage of For The Greater Good. I think that is the rule where they fire overwatch for other units.

Pretty sure they can still use for the greater good even if the target cant overwatch. Rule only specifies when a unit declares a charge a unit in 6 can fire overwatch as if charged. So unless you cancel them too they can still greater good.

Doesn't need to be all or nothing. There's value in reducing the overwatch you'll take, even against Tau.

But generally the fire warriors will be what you are charging. It wont work for the 3 riptides standing behind. But might help a bit.

[MajorNese]

I don't think Eliminators have anything close to efficiency in killing characters, but they are a threat with high potential damage output. Meaning the impact is rather psychiological - either not deploy characters within range/LoS because they might possibly kill them, or be less aggressive with the character when it has already lost some wounds.

 

I've had Harlequin characters stay entirely out of LoS as the libby could psy-snipe them (and did, for one char), having another threat bubble around the Eliminators would do the same. Maybe together, they might actually kill something, but at least it will make the opponent think twice about exposing his characters, reducing their overall effectiveness. Not sure if it's worth it, but with a points adjustment it might be.

[SkimaskMohawk]

As others have pointed out, being able to take a unit of 6 will really help them.

[MajorNese]

As others have pointed out, being able to take a unit of 6 will really help them.

I doubt that. Larger unit size helps with FOC slots and the +1 to hit WL trait, at the cost of potential morale issues. The WL trait is better for hellblasters, where it also affects to-wound rolls and damage value without potentially killing your own models by overcharging, unlike Eliminators where it just creates slightly more hits without further effect - a points reduction would do the same by adding a model (and shot) or two. The main problem is still the to-wound (not the to-hit) roll that just makes them unreliable against anything T4 or higher.

[SkimaskMohawk]

So what you're saying, is that even though more guys will literally double their output, not to mention the multiplicative affects of various buffs, that you doubt it will help the unit do better? Points reductions doesn't increase the model cap from 9 in a matched play list.

Those hellblasters have a completely different function.

[MajorNese]

So what you're saying, is that even though more guys will literally double their output, not to mention the multiplicative affects of various buffs, that you doubt it will help the unit do better? Points reductions doesn't increase the model cap from 9 in a matched play list.

What I'm saying is that getting literally double the output for literally double the points doesn't change the stats from "mediocre" to "good". Points reductions would increase the output per point, squad size doesn't.

 

And hellblasters might have a different role, but nonetheless make better use of the vanguard WL buff one might have earmaked for a large eliminators squad. Considering said buff can apply to any <Chapter> unit including superheavies, getting on average one more hit per theoretical eliminator squad of 6 doesn't sound like much.

[Lemondish]

 

So what you're saying, is that even though more guys will literally double their output, not to mention the multiplicative affects of various buffs, that you doubt it will help the unit do better? Points reductions doesn't increase the model cap from 9 in a matched play list.

What I'm saying is that getting literally double the output for literally double the points doesn't change the stats from "mediocre" to "good". Points reductions would increase the output per point, squad size doesn't.

 

And hellblasters might have a different role, but nonetheless make better use of the vanguard WL buff one might have earmaked for a large eliminators squad. Considering said buff can apply to any <Chapter> unit including superheavies, getting on average one more hit per theoretical eliminator squad of 6 doesn't sound like much.

 

 

It's one more hit on a critical target that you otherwise can't touch until they get close enough to threaten you immensely. Sure, it's situational - but 40k is a series of ever changing situations you have to respond to turn by turn. There isn't some series of golden directions you can follow that will win you the game if you just repeat them in the right order over and over. No amount of better hellblaster shooting will matter if the impact of it won't equate to finishing off or wounding a linchpin character. 

 

I think people are forgetting the role snipers play in this game. They soften up targets you otherwise can't touch until they make their move. I beatstick character usually can't be shot until late into the game, and by then they've made a significant impact in many cases. What if the first time that melee beatstick hit my lines he had already lost a wound? Could turn the tide. 

 

And there's far more to it than simply causing damage to a unit. Characters are by far the most important parts of one's army. Whether they're there to solve hard targets (like a smash captain),or there to buff your other units, you rely on them pretty heavily to provide you a powerful benefit across the game. Losing them early isn't great and can drastically shift your gameplan.

 

A sniper unit that fails to kill a hard target in one round of shooting 70% of the time isn't all that scary if the target is just some squad of whatever. If it's a linchpin character, is 30% of losing that guy worth the risk, or do you change up your gameplan to mitigate the threat?

 

Sniper make people think because the targets they're hurting are pretty important. Sure, on average they won't be killing much of what they shoot at in one round. But when they do, it's far more impactful to the game than Hellblasters killing one or two more elite infantry.

[sfPanzer]

 

So what you're saying, is that even though more guys will literally double their output, not to mention the multiplicative affects of various buffs, that you doubt it will help the unit do better? Points reductions doesn't increase the model cap from 9 in a matched play list.

What I'm saying is that getting literally double the output for literally double the points doesn't change the stats from "mediocre" to "good". Points reductions would increase the output per point, squad size doesn't.

 

 

I kinda have to disagree with the conclusion. The problem of Eliminators isn't that they don't do apropriate damage for their points, their problem is that they don't kill their targets fast enough to actually do their job (note: that only counts for tougher targets like Marines and tougher) since sniper are only really of interest during the first 1-3 rounds. Afterwards there are much less units on the board so you can deal with characters well enough without any specialised units ... if the game isn't already decided by then anyway.

Being able to take more would let them kill their targets faster. So double the output for double the points would actually change things for them.

 

That being said I've been always only talking about a single unit of Eliminators. I'm fully aware that 2x3 or even 3x3 Eliminators are a threat to even tough characters like Marine Captains etc (9 Eliminators take about 1.7 rounds on average to kill a PA Captain without Stormshield compared to 3 who take on average 5 rounds to deal with such a target), so increasing the unit size wouldn't really help more than just taking more units which you can already do anyway.

 

 

Anyway, ultimately you have to decide how much you want to comit into dealing with characters.

If you take only 1x3 you are fine against all those squishy support characters but except for lucky shots they won't pull their weight against tougher characters and you'd be probably better off just not taking them at all. If you take 3x3 you can deal with tougher characters but risk having invested way too much into character sniping against armies with less tough characters and would've been better off with more anti-chaff or anti-tank stuff instead.

2x3 would be a compromise I guess (they need ~2.5 rounds to take out a PA Captain without Stormshield) but I honestly think if you take more than one unit you might as well go all in because there are also even tougher characters out there (stuff with better invuls or T5 and/or FnP etc) and Eliminators aren't characters themselves so the opponent can easily take care of them unlike it would be the case with a Vindicares or the GSC snipers.

Edited by sfPanzer, 02 April 2019 - 10:22 PM.

[MajorNese]

Anyway, ultimately you have to decide how much you want to comit into dealing with characters.

That's the point I'm having with points cost and unit size - sure, I can take more snipers, but then I can take less of anything else. Last game, I faced biker captain/libbys with storm shields. Wounds on 5+, saves on 3+, so it would take 12 Eliminators to kill a single captain in 2 rounds, which depends on 5s and 6s to wound, and almost half of the calculated damage is just MWs/6s. Sure, with lucky shots 1x3 eliminators could theoretically kill the guy in a single round, but that's just bringing a knife to a gun fight and hoping for the other guy to be out of ammo.

 

A fully loaded biker captain is a 121p model, the 12 eliminators currently cost 288p. When I'm just fishing for 5s or 6s, that's just too many points. If they get closer to stalker intercessors I'd reconsider, but right now I don't consider them effective at their job. Useful (mostly for their psychological impact, as mentioned in this thread several times), but not worth their points in something beyond fun games or games where you know your opponent will bring T3 characters. For serious character sniping, a vindicare should be both a greater, longer-ranged threat and more effective at his job, at just 13p above 1x3 eliminators.

 

Currently, IMO the best Astartes character deterrent is the phobos libby. Limited range, but can target characters (even in CC) with up to 2 MW per round (exchanging hit/wound/save rolls for a roll with warp charge 6), halves movement and potentially generates CP in the process, while being a protected character in turn and ignoring falling back. Every time I've used that guy, he has had serious impact on how my opponent deployed his characters - if their super fast character runs into a screen and can't get out of range again, it's in deep trouble. Halving the movement means chances are you can repeat the process next round and maybe switch to Smite for more MWs. Sure, sometimes the movement debuff is needed somewhere else, but the possibility of it is what my opponents feared most.

[domsto]

So my Tactic for the Vanguard Marines is to put them high up on my shelf and wait till they are reasonable priced.
I played them a few times now and every unit except the new snipers seem to suck.
Infiltrators seem to be the most overcosted unit from the new Range.

Edited by domsto, 04 April 2019 - 04:54 AM.

[Hantheman]

Based on my play-testing, the librarian is good. The best of the lot and especially for Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Blood Angels, because they all already have 1-2 good psychic powers and now you can play two librarians and come to the table with 4 good powers. My ravenwing have been running one with a phobos librarian who sits mid-field, out of LoS. Along with librarian on a bike, combine Hallucination with Aversion and Mind Wipe (which Hallucination makes easier to go off) you can either give one unit -3 to thier hit rolls, or any combination. Add in a dark shroud and some good rolls, a knight can't shoot at most of your army. 

 

Tenebrous curse vs any foot melee army is potentially devastating.

[mel_danes]

/\ This.
Curse vs foot slogging Ork boys is murder sauce. So good. Combined with Mind Raid the Librarian becomes a low grade character assassin.

[mel_danes]

Infiltrators look cool, like the rules but.
I tend to keep them in the back field, spilt squad to secure my deployment zone from deepstrikers. Thus they don't get any damage output. The price is just killing my love for the unit.
They eat up points and sit. And really for the cost vs ability I could get way more bite out of Interssesors.
I may go to a minimum squad, then infiltrate them for objective securing, or deployment disruption mid field.
Anybody had good use with Infiltrators?

[MajorNese]

One thought crossed my mind recently - if Infiltrators come as multipart, which weapons options could they have?

 

Considering the Dark Imperium lieutenant and multipart captain had variants of the regular boltrifle (auto/stalker boltrifle) that got added with the Intercessor multipart sprue, this could apply to Infiltrators as well. Model wise, the occulus/instigator have curved magazines and different scopes, that could be done the same way as Intercessors. Even the Marksman carbine optics are on the right side for that to work, even if the marine can't possibly look through those. Only the silencer of the Instigator would be an additional (if small) bit.

 

Infiltrator: Marksman bolt carbine - RF 24", auto-wound on 6s

Lieutenant: Occulus bolt carbine - RF 24", ignore cover (2D by master-crafted)

Captain:    Instigator bolt carbine - Heavy 1 30", AP-2, target characters (2D by master-crafted)

 

In the voxcast episode about Shadowspear, it was mentioned though that the captain would have selected gear of choice from the different roles of the vanguard, so the Instigator might rather be partly borrowed from the Eliminators. The Eliminators gun is the only one not called "bolt carbine" on the other hand, so it might just be the "targeting characters" rule the captain borrowed. All in all, this could open up a few more options that would make use of Concealed Positions, without entirely overlapping with Intercessor weapons options.

[sfPanzer]

I highly doubt they'll get a sniper rifle that's almost as effective as the one the dedicated sniper unit is carrying. ^^

[MajorNese]

I highly doubt they'll get a sniper rifle that's almost as effective as the one the dedicated sniper unit is carrying. ^^

Yep, that's why I believe that's a nod to the captain having served with the Eliminators. Without the character targeting, it's effectively a stalker boltrifle with 6" less range but on a Concealed Positions unit. That would fill the niche of midfield objective campers nicely, which is why the gun itself doesn't sound too far off.

[Claws and Effect]

I highly doubt they'll get a sniper rifle that's almost as effective as the one the dedicated sniper unit is carrying. ^^

Yep, that's why I believe that's a nod to the captain having served with the Eliminators. Without the character targeting, it's effectively a stalker boltrifle with 6" less range but on a Concealed Positions unit. That would fill the niche of midfield objective campers nicely, which is why the gun itself doesn't sound too far off.

Maybe a Sgt only option?

[Nusquam]

I wouldn't be surprised if Infiltrators got Instigators. Intercessors can get Stalker Rifles. Not much of a leap.

[Lemondish]

I wouldn't be surprised if Infiltrators got Instigators. Intercessors can get Stalker Rifles. Not much of a leap.

It costs 3 CP to get Intercessors to do the same thing, which is a pretty hardcore commitment, right? Not so for a squad that can deploy anywhere.

[Nusquam]

It would be easy to just remove the character targeting ability. The Vanguard codex is just a draft; it has to change with the multipart kits anyway. 

[MajorNese]

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Infiltrators got Instigators. Intercessors can get Stalker Rifles. Not much of a leap.

It costs 3 CP to get Intercessors to do the same thing, which is a pretty hardcore commitment, right? Not so for a squad that can deploy anywhere.

Again, character targeting might be a Captain Only thing, but the gun itself fits. One thing to consider - cheap scouts (which the Infiltrators are based on) can have guns that target characters, and inflict MW. They're not spammed because said guns are rather expensive, which could translate to the Instigator - at that possible price point, one might take the massively better Eliminators instead. Which would be a similar choice like auto boltrifle Intercessors vs. bolt carbine Reivers - different FOC slot, different wargear, different rules. Infiltrators to have ObSec/compulsory troops which can also shave off a wound from a character (like scouts), while Eliminators have one job only - kill characters, not just wound them.

[DietOfLiquor]

So kind of reviving this thread.

 

I've had a ton of success so far with the infiltrators. Granted they are pretty expensive and I would love to see their points decrease whenever the new codex drops, but that denial bubble is just too good. And with 6's on overwatch auto-wounding, it's kind of hard to pass them up.

 

The Helix is a hit or miss. One game he revived another guy that helped out in the end. Another game, he wiff'd and I lost another model that could have shot. It's 50/50. Very situational but still not a bad upgrade to take.

 

Suppressors - Still haven't had the heart to take them yet.

 

Librarian - Boss. Absolute boss. I haven't targeted a character with Mind Raid yet, but if he comes out with a second model, I'm definitely getting another.

 

Lt. - He did well with the ability to deep strike in to give his re-roll 1's to wound bubble. Just the ability to put him where you need him turn 2 on is great.

 

Capt - Not really in the spot to want to try.

 

Eliminators - I haven't really had much success with this unit. They're definitely a fear tactic, especially for smaller characters like engineseers or the likes. Does make your opponent sweat, but I with they had a rule for like... 5's or 6's auto mortal wound or something of that flavor. I feel it'd make them a tad more deadly and actually cause your opponent to have to deal with them.

[sfPanzer]

Had a game using the Shadowspear stuff last saturday and so far it only confirmed what I've been thinking already. Eliminators are underwhelming if you don't play against an army with squishy characters and Infiltrators are neat for the infiltration but other than that pretty useless so I probably won't include more than one unit of 5-10 once they got a points drop. Suppressors are just generally kinda budget Inceptors so I don't even expect much from them and just take them because I like how they look.

The Vanguard Librarian did good work with the half-movement power though!