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Vanguard Tactica-thread.


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#101
Fulkes

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Personally I've been looking at the Suppresors with a bit of excitement. For melee focused armies the ability to prevent Overwatch is nice and Autocannons with -2AP have a decent amount of flexibility to support Primaris armies.

Eliminators I see mainly as a way to weaken enemy HQs, or pick off support characters like Apothecaries. They won't drop heavy HQs like Abbadon or Guilliman in a single turn, but taking even a single wound off of him helps drop him that much sooner.

Basically Suppressors are a multi tool to support your army with if you don't use mini-Marines while Eliminators need a plan from the moment you put them on the table. Pick a target, keep shooting it until it dies or you do and then move on.

 My company inform me that their new primaris brother just don't fit in the safety harnesses. And the Chaplain won't let us ride unless we buckle up.


#102
PeteySödes

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Had a game using the Shadowspear stuff last saturday and so far it only confirmed what I've been thinking already. Eliminators are underwhelming if you don't play against an army with squishy characters and Infiltrators are neat for the infiltration but other than that pretty useless so I probably won't include more than one unit of 5-10 once they got a points drop. Suppressors are just generally kinda budget Inceptors so I don't even expect much from them and just take them because I like how they look.

The Vanguard Librarian did good work with the half-movement power though!

 

Re: Infiltrators, you were happy enough performance wise to plan on taking a unit going forward though? Im really interested in taking 5 with the helix adept in the traditional scout role (since I don't have them). 


Edited by PeteySödes, 15 April 2019 - 05:41 PM.


#103
sfPanzer

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Had a game using the Shadowspear stuff last saturday and so far it only confirmed what I've been thinking already. Eliminators are underwhelming if you don't play against an army with squishy characters and Infiltrators are neat for the infiltration but other than that pretty useless so I probably won't include more than one unit of 5-10 once they got a points drop. Suppressors are just generally kinda budget Inceptors so I don't even expect much from them and just take them because I like how they look.

The Vanguard Librarian did good work with the half-movement power though!

 

Re: Infiltrators, you were happy enough performance wise to plan on taking a unit going forward though? Im really interested in taking 5 with the helix adept in the traditional scout role (since I don't have them). 

 

 

I'm not a tournament player so I don't always just take things that are strong. Having an infiltrating unit I can throw at whatever makes games more interesting, that's the only reason why I'd take a unit. If they were actually good I'd take more. ;)

Not sure if you can take the Helix in such a small unit. The wording currently allows the Helix only in addition to the base 5 models or in a unit of 10 models depending on how you read it. I'd love taking one in a small unit though.


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#104
PeteySödes

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I'm not a tournament player so I don't always just take things that are strong. Having an infiltrating unit I can throw at whatever makes games more interesting, that's the only reason why I'd take a unit. If they were actually good I'd take more. msn-wink.gif

Not sure if you can take the Helix in such a small unit. The wording currently allows the Helix only in addition to the base 5 models or in a unit of 10 models depending on how you read it. I'd love taking one in a small unit though.

 

 

You totally can, "may include up to 4 additional and infiltrators and a helix adept", 0 is not above 4. Given the cost atm I wanted to keep the it down a bit but still get the utility. I'm excited to field them asap.


Edited by PeteySödes, 16 April 2019 - 02:25 PM.


#105
sfPanzer

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I'm not a tournament player so I don't always just take things that are strong. Having an infiltrating unit I can throw at whatever makes games more interesting, that's the only reason why I'd take a unit. If they were actually good I'd take more. msn-wink.gif

Not sure if you can take the Helix in such a small unit. The wording currently allows the Helix only in addition to the base 5 models or in a unit of 10 models depending on how you read it. I'd love taking one in a small unit though.

 

 

You totally can, "may include up to 4 additional and infiltrators and a helix adept", 0 is not above 4. Given the cost atm I wanted to keep the it down a bit but still get the utility. I'm excited to field them asap.

 

That would still mean a unit size of at least 6. 5 base + the Helix. Otherwise it would say that you can upgrade one Infiltrator to a Helix.


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#106
PeteySödes

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I'm not a tournament player so I don't always just take things that are strong. Having an infiltrating unit I can throw at whatever makes games more interesting, that's the only reason why I'd take a unit. If they were actually good I'd take more. msn-wink.gif

Not sure if you can take the Helix in such a small unit. The wording currently allows the Helix only in addition to the base 5 models or in a unit of 10 models depending on how you read it. I'd love taking one in a small unit though.

 

 

You totally can, "may include up to 4 additional and infiltrators and a helix adept", 0 is not above 4. Given the cost atm I wanted to keep the it down a bit but still get the utility. I'm excited to field them asap.

 

That would still mean a unit size of at least 6. 5 base + the Helix. Otherwise it would say that you can upgrade one Infiltrator to a Helix.

 

 

Maybe i need more coffee but i dont see how that would not allow me to do that. 1 infiltrator sgt, 4 infiltrators and the helix adept. Totally legal based on the datasheet.



#107
sfPanzer

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I'm not a tournament player so I don't always just take things that are strong. Having an infiltrating unit I can throw at whatever makes games more interesting, that's the only reason why I'd take a unit. If they were actually good I'd take more. msn-wink.gif

Not sure if you can take the Helix in such a small unit. The wording currently allows the Helix only in addition to the base 5 models or in a unit of 10 models depending on how you read it. I'd love taking one in a small unit though.

 

 

You totally can, "may include up to 4 additional and infiltrators and a helix adept", 0 is not above 4. Given the cost atm I wanted to keep the it down a bit but still get the utility. I'm excited to field them asap.

 

That would still mean a unit size of at least 6. 5 base + the Helix. Otherwise it would say that you can upgrade one Infiltrator to a Helix.

 

 

Maybe i need more coffee but i dont see how that would not allow me to do that. 1 infiltrator sgt, 4 infiltrators and the helix adept. Totally legal based on the datasheet.

 

 

I think you really need more coffee. I didn't say you can't do that. I said you can't take a Helix in a unit of 5. It needs to be at least 6. ^^


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#108
PeteySödes

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Sure, thats what i meant really. Just differentiating the helix from the 5 baseline guys. We're talking about the same thing it seems.



#109
MajorNese

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On a different note about the suppressors:

Most calculations were about how these guys can't do much in a squad of 3. It does get interesting IMO when comparing them to hellblasters instead of inceptors, and ignoring the special rules/squad size for a second:

The suppressors cost 33ppm, just like the cheapest hellblasters. They have same toughness/wounds, considerably more range, always 2D (not just when overcharging), always 2 shots (not just at <15"), but lower strength and AP. Except for T8 and targets with good armour but no invul, suppressors do slightly more damage if I remember my calculations correctly, but have more range than any other primaris infantry.

 

So I'd consider these guys regular heavy weapons primaris first, multitool guys second. Put 'em in cover, pop smoke for the first round they might get shot at (only prevents the sarge from firing, not everyone else) for that nice -2 to hit, and use Fly just in a pinch - evacuate in face of CC (or fall back and shoot), relocate to get LoS, advance to claim objectives. The suppression rule seems situational at best, but still useful to have. In this case I'd prefer to run them in the classic units of 5+ models - the costs are okay, but the drain on FOC slots is lower that way, and they become a less appealing target if your opponent knows he can't kill them all in one salvo. I'll try these guys soon, hopefully they do more than my Eliminators...


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#110
sfPanzer

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On a different note about the suppressors:

Most calculations were about how these guys can't do much in a squad of 3. It does get interesting IMO when comparing them to hellblasters instead of inceptors, and ignoring the special rules/squad size for a second:

The suppressors cost 33ppm, just like the cheapest hellblasters. They have same toughness/wounds, considerably more range, always 2D (not just when overcharging), always 2 shots (not just at <15"), but lower strength and AP. Except for T8 and targets with good armour but no invul, suppressors do slightly more damage if I remember my calculations correctly, but have more range than any other primaris infantry.

 

So I'd consider these guys regular heavy weapons primaris first, multitool guys second. Put 'em in cover, pop smoke for the first round they might get shot at (only prevents the sarge from firing, not everyone else) for that nice -2 to hit, and use Fly just in a pinch - evacuate in face of CC (or fall back and shoot), relocate to get LoS, advance to claim objectives. The suppression rule seems situational at best, but still useful to have. In this case I'd prefer to run them in the classic units of 5+ models - the costs are okay, but the drain on FOC slots is lower that way, and they become a less appealing target if your opponent knows he can't kill them all in one salvo. I'll try these guys soon, hopefully they do more than my Eliminators...

 

It becomes even more interesting when you compare it to Inceptors as well.
 

gDg6r7p.png

 

So we see that Suppressors are pretty much always better than Hellblaster at >15" except for against Marines and regular tanks. However they are also pretty much always worse than either Bolter Inceptor, Plasma Inceptor or Hellblaster in RF range.

 

Now that's just the bare numbers and there are of course other things to think about as well.

For example it's much easier to keep Suppressors in aura range of characters than Inceptors or Hellblasters, their added mobility over Hellblasters which they share with Inceptors, the added durability per points over Inceptors despite their T5 due the Inceptors expensive weapons, the tendency of supercharging Plasma to overheat (and eat ~4 shots in an Inceptor squad), the random number of shots for Plasma Inceptors and so on.

 

However I think it's fair to say that they are neat allrounder that bring some more meat to the table than the more dedicated Inceptors. If we end up with a bigger max unit size for them we should definitely play them in bigger units (or just multiple smaller units) since their damage output per model is comparably low.

Special shoutout for the ability to take away overwatch from (mostly) infantry units in case there are melee units in your list and also the Sergeants ability to throw smoke to protect the unit while the rest of the unit can keep shooting unlike it's the case with Infiltrators.


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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#111
MajorNese

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So we see that Suppressors are pretty much always better than Hellblaster at >15" except for against Marines and regular tanks. However they are also pretty much always worse than either Bolter Inceptor, Plasma Inceptor or Hellblaster in RF range.

That's the point - everything that is usually more effective also has to be within 18" or less of its target. That in itself is a problem in my experience, because any surviving enemies nearby are in CC/rapid fire/grenade/pistol range and ignore RG's -1 to hit due to proximity. Midfield weaponry of neighboring units can open up too, making it a bit comparable to the suicide melta squads of classic marines.

 

Suppressors are in a rather singular position as they maintain peak efficiency up to 48", and reduced efficiency at 60", which comes closer to devastator squads than the mentioned suicide meltas. They can shoot constantly from the first turn on, while inceptors are not yet on the board and hellblasters are not yet in RF range, offsetting their lower output to a degree. The other way around, a large percentage of weapons can't touch them yet, as the suppressors can deploy out of range of most anti-infantry weapons. Last but not least, they can damage enemy backfield units as long as they remain alive, instead of being rather limited in range like the remaining primaris line.

 

So yes, there are more efficient options for taking out a limited number of high value targets, especially those without invuls. In contrast, these guys can constantly add to the weight of fire while being a rather unappealing/inaccessible target with lower priority. With the right threat management, these guys can fire with impunity for most of the game, making them a usable option, even if they are not the destroyer of worlds.


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#112
Nusquam

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If Suppressors go 3-6 and keep that only the sarge loses shooting for smoke their value will go up too. So instead of 2/6 not shooting only 1/6 will.
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#113
mel_danes

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I've used Suppressors in 3 games so far.
Each game they began on the field, I saw no benefit to deepstrike.
They plink away at light vehicles and now and then dent harder targets when nothing more appealing presents itself.
A 6 man squad could do some work, with Scions of Guilliman on them it would be worth it.
I'm anxious to see what the other weapon will be in the full Suppressor kit release.

#114
chapter master 454

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I've used Suppressors in 3 games so far.
Each game they began on the field, I saw no benefit to deepstrike.
They plink away at light vehicles and now and then dent harder targets when nothing more appealing presents itself.
A 6 man squad could do some work, with Scions of Guilliman on them it would be worth it.
I'm anxious to see what the other weapon will be in the full Suppressor kit release.

 

Something plasma based is likely with how proud cawl of his creations. Personally I would love to see their weapon be swappable with a lastalon instead, a weapon that makes their mobility worthwhile. Maybe even give the Lastalon variant an alternate effect to do with deep-striking (like say ignoring heavy penalty).

 

But no, that would be interesting and cool and give primaris actual anti-tank. What Primaris are short of clearly is plasma based weaponry, not like they get any of that at all. Nope, not a single unit of theirs has plasma, I mean Hellblasters are never taken because they totally aren't super busted good and are effectively the only anti-tank primaris have outside an overpriced offspring of forbidden love between a dakka-predator and a phobos land raider. I mean, they totally need more plasma based units because THEY FOIGHT CHAOS so much they clearly need more plasma...

Hey, you think I am getting a little sarcastic and ironic with how I am talking about primaris?

 

However in terms of tactics: not sure how I feel about eliminators still. I want to like them but they feel clunky to include currently and just seem to...feel a little lacklustre. I want to like them but my vindicare just seems to be a better option (though he did get a good shot a chaplain in terminator armour. One hitter quitter baby. Oh yea!).

Faced Infiltrators and even watched their performance. Best description is a joke. Once they become 17 points we can talk about them but until then they aren't a threat. Faced someone using 2 squads of them and while I see the value, the problem is deep strike lists start at turn 2 and by then you can ether clear them out easy enough or if you can't then clearly they weren't far enough forward to affect deep striking anyway while their forward punch is laughable.

Neat Note though: because of how overwatch works, their rifles ain't half bad on that regard. Still a punchline though.

 

The crippling problem I currently have with the stuff though is their points. I would feel more able to give fair review of them if they weren't so over priced. Again, if we see in the future the Primaris line expanded to include variable wargear options (especially for units such as the phobos captain and lieutenant) then maybe we may see such units shine when we can give them wargear that suits their rules. Currently, Knife Fighter is just wasted really when he doesn't have anything to back it up (even if it was an AP1 knife!...ain't that a funny thing huh?)


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I Chapter Master 454, Chapter Master of the Angels of Justice, Warboss of WAAAGH Gubskul, Commander of a Catachan Regiment, Phaeron of a Tomb World, Shas'O to a Cadre and Princeps of a lance of House Taranis hereby pledge that I will not take up any further models til all other prior have been fully built and painted to tabletop standards. There is no time limit for this task, there is no deadline. My oath is to solemnly complete the armies I have now, to see it that they can have their glory. Paint will be stripped from the old in need, thick may it be like ceramite I will see it removed so that plastic and metal alike may see light of new paint. Models yet to be, boxed and in darkness will be assembled with due care and attention. For this task I am permitted to still buy the supplies needed to do my task but not one model more.

http://www.bolterand...one-model-more/ the thread to my oath. My own reminder.

http://www.bolterand...rk-in-progress/ my own chapter
"The objective of playing a game is to win. The point of playing a game is to have fun. Never confuse the two"

 

 

 


#115
Lemondish

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I'd like to see who's clearing out Primaris units in cover in a single turn without throwing everything at them.

Second, the deep strike denial is secondary to the ability to take the board from your opponent from the first turn.

I've been finding amazing success with Infiltrators the past few games - they have legitimately been my MVPs. Where they don't completely ruin armies looking to deep strike, they take objectives early, bog down an advancing opponent, or straight up lock a screen in their own deployment zone. With Princeps of Deceit, the options are endless, effective, and most of all - fun.

And I'd take them even if they didn't fire a shot, they're that much more durable over scouts. I imagine you'll start to see people use them much more aggressively once they get over the sticker shock because they are pretty damn good.

Eliminators have been a great addition as well. Most games usually result in a turn 2 or 3 match up with most characters being threatened from that point on. These guys let me pressure them turn 1 while being a hell of a difficult unit to dislodge. There's something to be said about having a legitimate ranged way to reach out and bother some characters.

Suppressors are great, too. They're super odd since I don't see as much value in deep strike for them when their range and mobility gives me the option to deploy them conservatively in the first place. I imagine it will be a different story once we see the alternative weapons. In any case, they are safer to use than Hellblasters and have been putting in work for me.

As for the characters, the Lt. was okay in a Liberator strike force detachment with field Commander giving him both auras, which I thought was a neat combo, but turns out the only unit he can drop with and buff with that is Reivers. Reivers are still okay at dropping to contest objectives late game, and I'm eager to see if any buffs hit the Reivers later on that make this combo better.

The captain is really too expensive, but decently valuable as a helpful deny bubble alongside Eliminators. He's strictly a "love the model" type unit - don't play him unless you like looking at the model.

The Librarian is amazing. I played him with the vengeful arbiter and fire and fade warlord trait. Absolute madman of a character assassin. Deploying forward, moving, using tenebrous and mind raid, then firing a s5 ap-1 2 damage pistol before retreating behind a screen. Hell of a lot of fun.

Edited by Lemondish, 21 April 2019 - 04:53 AM.

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#116
Happy-inquisitor

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It becomes even more interesting when you compare it to Inceptors as well.
 

gDg6r7p.png

 

So we see that Suppressors are pretty much always better than Hellblaster at >15" except for against Marines and regular tanks. However they are also pretty much always worse than either Bolter Inceptor, Plasma Inceptor or Hellblaster in RF range.

 

Now that's just the bare numbers and there are of course other things to think about as well.

For example it's much easier to keep Suppressors in aura range of characters than Inceptors or Hellblasters, their added mobility over Hellblasters which they share with Inceptors, the added durability per points over Inceptors despite their T5 due the Inceptors expensive weapons, the tendency of supercharging Plasma to overheat (and eat ~4 shots in an Inceptor squad), the random number of shots for Plasma Inceptors and so on.

 

However I think it's fair to say that they are neat allrounder that bring some more meat to the table than the more dedicated Inceptors. If we end up with a bigger max unit size for them we should definitely play them in bigger units (or just multiple smaller units) since their damage output per model is comparably low.

Special shoutout for the ability to take away overwatch from (mostly) infantry units in case there are melee units in your list and also the Sergeants ability to throw smoke to protect the unit while the rest of the unit can keep shooting unlike it's the case with Infiltrators.

 

 

 

That is a really helpful analysis. I think it really highlights how the Suppressors excel at range and hence at laying down steady firepower over a number of turns - whereas both Hellblasters and Inceptors have to get right up into the danger zone to do work but are harder hitting when they are there.

 

Not only is it easier to keep Suppressors within the buffing range of characters but they are far less dependent on those buffs than most of the Primaris alternatives. The simple sad fact is that any plasma unit is limited to poor damage output if it cannot at least re-roll 1's as the models will be killing themselves at a frightening pace if they overcharge. We need to factor in the cost of that buffing character - and the tactical price we pay for bunching everything up on one small part of the table - when we look at the efficiency of Hellblasters or Plasma Inceptors. The suppressors are a much more independent unit, they lose a little efficiency without those re-rolls but they do not kill themselves!


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#117
chapter master 454

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I'd like to see who's clearing out Primaris units in cover in a single turn without throwing everything at them.

 

-Imperial Fist intensifies-

 

Yea, I did, with Intercessors. Not full squads mind you but of the sum total 12 odd he had between two squads, I cleared out all but one but then again to be fair he was just placing them and having them shoot, likely be more effective if they actually attempted to charge my gun-line (still wouldn't of been pretty, he would of only had vetcessors to deal with for charging and that would of been ugly).

 

HOWEVER I will say yes, Primaris in cover is fairly potent as I do it with an indomitable so I tend to have a fire base where my 20 odd intercessors on the front have a 2+ save no matter where they are and the centurions can still take a 4+ against lascannons.

 

Certainly I see the value but for their cost to just be a bog down unit is fairly underwhelming. However by all accounts getting them a forward position is valuable and without doubt they could be extremely effective at disrupting gun-line plans. Again, being Primaris in stat-line so having 2 attacks just by default makes them decent melee units however I will comment their boltguns just don't do it for me.

 

I guess we have completely different experiences with them so far. On my end, everytime I see them they get wrecked and turned into a heap on the ground (and to point out why: my list is a castle list with 8 centurions, 20 intercessors and various backing aides like phobos lieutenant and rhino primaris. My friend who I observed the game of was using 3 riptides with ATS and Target Lock on a Heavy Burst Cannon...yea, that thing minces primaris by default). However on your end you seem to of found some great success which I am glad for, good to hear people out there are finding the units niche and exploiting it to its fullest!

Again, still needing more data on eliminators before I comment and suppressors yea still feel weird...I want to slap the designers. Personally. "Hey guys, these guys have heavy weapons with extreme range and are meant to be supporting the stealth ops of our new box. What should we give them to compliment their LONG RANGE guns?" Kinda feels like that business meme where the third guy gives a good idea but gets tossed out the window.


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I Chapter Master 454, Chapter Master of the Angels of Justice, Warboss of WAAAGH Gubskul, Commander of a Catachan Regiment, Phaeron of a Tomb World, Shas'O to a Cadre and Princeps of a lance of House Taranis hereby pledge that I will not take up any further models til all other prior have been fully built and painted to tabletop standards. There is no time limit for this task, there is no deadline. My oath is to solemnly complete the armies I have now, to see it that they can have their glory. Paint will be stripped from the old in need, thick may it be like ceramite I will see it removed so that plastic and metal alike may see light of new paint. Models yet to be, boxed and in darkness will be assembled with due care and attention. For this task I am permitted to still buy the supplies needed to do my task but not one model more.

http://www.bolterand...one-model-more/ the thread to my oath. My own reminder.

http://www.bolterand...rk-in-progress/ my own chapter
"The objective of playing a game is to win. The point of playing a game is to have fun. Never confuse the two"

 

 

 


#118
Lemondish

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We'll see what the suppressor alternate weapon option(s) are before the mobility and deep strike

Though I certainly think their special rule should trigger on damage caused rather than models eliminated.

As far as Infiltrators go, I find their use isn't just tied to gunline armies. That one-two punch of scout deployment and deep strike denial is what really makes them versatile. Sometimes it's the deep strike denial that helps the most, like countering a mobbed up unit of Boyz from making use of Da Jump. Other times it's scout deployment, where a screen of Guardsmen gets charged in your first turn and can't move out of their own deployment. These rules aren't always going to benefit you at equal levels in every game, but even when only one is an active component in the match, it's powerful enough to disrupt your opponent's plans heavily. But I definitely see what you mean there about a gunline like yours finding little value in them. I tend to focus on mobile armies that take the middle of the board and hold it, and these guys make it so I don't really have to rely on expensive transports or early target priority on screens in order to get my obsec into the right spots. Less time getting somewhere means taking less risks, and so far it's paid off for me. I was really really harsh on their costs early on, and I'm now eating humble pie for not assessing them after playing them. They work really well for my aggressive, mobile style.

And if folks feel they have to focus their firepower against Infiltrators in cover because I lost first turn, then so be it :)

Now, that isn't to say I would not at all complain about a price reduction ;) I just feel like this is one of a few units within the marine codex at this time that give you a fundamentally unique pair of benefits that can be maximized through clever play without being the same strategy against every opponent.

Edited by Lemondish, 21 April 2019 - 02:53 PM.


#119
Triszin

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So we see that Suppressors are pretty much always better than Hellblaster at >15" except for against Marines and regular tanks. However they are also pretty much always worse than either Bolter Inceptor, Plasma Inceptor or Hellblaster in RF range.

That's the point - everything that is usually more effective also has to be within 18" or less of its target. That in itself is a problem in my experience, because any surviving enemies nearby are in CC/rapid fire/grenade/pistol range and ignore RG's -1 to hit due to proximity. Midfield weaponry of neighboring units can open up too, making it a bit comparable to the suicide melta squads of classic marines.

Suppressors are in a rather singular position as they maintain peak efficiency up to 48", and reduced efficiency at 60", which comes closer to devastator squads than the mentioned suicide meltas. They can shoot constantly from the first turn on, while inceptors are not yet on the board and hellblasters are not yet in RF range, offsetting their lower output to a degree. The other way around, a large percentage of weapons can't touch them yet, as the suppressors can deploy out of range of most anti-infantry weapons. Last but not least, they can damage enemy backfield units as long as they remain alive, instead of being rather limited in range like the remaining primaris line.

So yes, there are more efficient options for taking out a limited number of high value targets, especially those without invuls. In contrast, these guys can constantly add to the weight of fire while being a rather unappealing/inaccessible target with lower priority. With the right threat management, these guys can fire with impunity for most of the game, making them a usable option, even if they are not the destroyer of worlds.
In the vox about them they hinted that down the road they should be able to go up to a 6 a squad

Edited by Triszin, 21 April 2019 - 09:24 PM.

banana

#120
War Angel

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@lemondish, do you think they can work for other lists too, to help with an aggressive element of a force. Or should we be going all in on our lists.
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#121
Lemondish

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@lemondish, do you think they can work for other lists too, to help with an aggressive element of a force. Or should we be going all in on our lists.

I definitely think there's potential there, but marine units always need support to achieve their goals. For my playstyle, they work wonders - I like to take the centre of the board and operate from there. You struggle to achieve certain powerful strategic goals when in order to be efficient your army needs to castle, or get into the opponent's face as soon as possible. Occupying that middle space makes it much easier to contest or secure objectives, gives you more space to maneuver, and lets you deny both movement and objectives. I prefer the middle ground of those two extremes (castle and assault), and in a fun form of poetic symmetry, this translates as literally the middle ground.

But back to my point. They need support to have the biggest impact for me, which usually means by the second or third turns I have something out there pushing forward that takes over or augments their jobs of containing movement, securing objectives, or denying ground for deep strike. If all they do is act as a speed bump that once killed cedes tons of ground to your opponent, it might not be worth the current point investment when scouts do the block and die job a little bit better (on paper).

Having said that, I do think there's a chance here that the Infiltrators greater resilience gives you much more time to blast away from a castle before moving forward to contest objectives, which definitely opens up options there. Likewise, if your plan is to rush forward and strike in combat early, they do give you a couple options for containing movement by deploying aggressively, or starting in cover on objectives in the middle and holding that spot as the rest of your army rushes past to put the pain on something.

Edited by Lemondish, 22 April 2019 - 05:30 PM.


#122
War Angel

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@lemondish, what do you support them with to continue holding that middle ground. For awhile now I’ve been wanting to build my army to have three elements that work together. A castle to provide fire support, an advance team to screen and harass the enemy, charging when suitable, and a flanking element, deep striking turn two to take advantage of any openings my opponent makes, be it objective or otherwise. So far I’ve finished the dark imperium box.
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#123
Lemondish

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@lemondish, what do you support them with to continue holding that middle ground. For awhile now I’ve been wanting to build my army to have three elements that work together. A castle to provide fire support, an advance team to screen and harass the enemy, charging when suitable, and a flanking element, deep striking turn two to take advantage of any openings my opponent makes, be it objective or otherwise. So far I’ve finished the dark imperium box.


Right now my list is all Primaris, because I love those models, and it's in huge flux because I learn better by throwing stuff out there to see if it sticks. In my last game, my firebase was a crimson fist Liberator battalion with a Hellblaster squad and two Intercessor squads holding my deployment with the field Commander Lt that provides both auras and an ancient with the relic banner.

My forward component is the two squads of Infiltrators with the Vanguard Librarian. I've been experimenting with him as my warlord lately, but only for fun. I'm really leaning towards taking more/bigger squads here.

My mobile component is two Repulsors and a Redemptor. One Repulsor is carrying a maxed size 10 man squad of Veteran Intercessors while the other is carrying a power fist captain (with the relic fist), a power sword Lt. and a 5 man Intercessor squad. These are the units I use to move forward to augment the Infiltrators or push forward to secure objectives in my opponent's deployment. I don't have any deep strike, but that's largely because I'm spending like 600 points in Repulsors lol. If it weren't for my absolute adoration of this model, I'd try and tweak the list to be more competitive.
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#124
SydonianDragoon404

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I'm afraid I may have to clip antennae off the packs for my Infiltators. They dont really play nice with foam trays.
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#125
thewarriorhunter

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I'm afraid I may have to clip antennae off the packs for my Infiltators. They dont really play nice with foam trays.

 

I wondered about that and have the same issue with my comms specialist that you've seen. What I try to do is 'spear' the antenna into the foam and then drop the base into the tray. It's worked so far.


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