The Siege of Terra: Solar War

[b1soul]

Hibou Khan's position was swallowed up by a vengeful SoH counter-offensive. So it would be surprise if he somehow made it to Terra. Maybe he commandeered a SoH ship? Low likelihood though

[JH79]

Was that at the end of the Little Horus Short? I can't remember hearing much of anything about him other than in Scars and Grey Talon which both preceded it. I thought he would have been part of the returning Sagyar Mazan Kill Teams, even if only to end up as part of their last stand against Morty, but no sign of him there either.

[Fire Golem]

Was that at the end of the Little Horus Short? I can't remember hearing much of anything about him other than in Scars and Grey Talon which both preceded it. I thought he would have been part of the returning Sagyar Mazan Kill Teams, even if only to end up as part of their last stand against Morty, but no sign of him there either.

I've just read Little Horus, and it doesn't happen at the end of that (it just say's Hibou Khan fled). Side note, I'd not read Little Horus before, that was a really good little short. 

[bluntblade]

Was that at the end of the Little Horus Short? I can't remember hearing much of anything about him other than in Scars and Grey Talon which both preceded it. I thought he would have been part of the returning Sagyar Mazan Kill Teams, even if only to end up as part of their last stand against Morty, but no sign of him there either.

No, he essentially vanishes at that stage and Torghun reflects in PoH that he's not heard from Hibou since then.

[carlisimo]

 

I loved how technical it was in describing the logistics of the attack, and how "lived-in" the Solar System felt. I'm going to miss

Pluto's moons.

 

That said, the scale of the attacking fleets makes it hard to believe that they'd be scared of the Ultramarines and Dark Angels, especially with the Warp still favoring one side in its travels. Slaves to Darkness built up that concern pretty well, but the Traitors' numbers and successes in The Solar War kind of undid it for me.

 

I know it's a series and we'll get more coverage, but I really could've used a look at the falcon fleets after losing Jubal Khan and possibly the Lance of Heaven. Without a look at the consequences of his failure, it fell a little flat.

 

Thoroughly agree with Roomsky's take on the Mersadie arc. Vindicating Malcador's ruthlessness was a nice touch. I lost the ability to take Samus seriously a long time ago, but given his connection to Loken and Mersadie, I get why it had to be him. The astrological references in this arc were a nice touch, too - there's an interesting thread about it in the Age of Darkness subforum here.

 

The shrine on the comet was a nice touch, too. Has anyone calculated based on orbital periods which comet it was?

[Indefragable]

I loved how technical it was in describing the logistics of the attack, and how "lived-in" the Solar System felt. I'm going to miss

Pluto's moons.

 

That said, the scale of the attacking fleets makes it hard to believe that they'd be scared of the Ultramarines and Dark Angels, especially with the Warp still favoring one side in its travels. Slaves to Darkness built up that concern pretty well, but the Traitors' numbers and successes in The Solar War kind of undid it for me.

 

I know it's a series and we'll get more coverage, but I really could've used a look at the falcon fleets after losing Jubal Khan and possibly the Lance of Heaven. Without a look at the consequences of his failure, it fell a little flat.

 

Thoroughly agree with Roomsky's take on the Mersadie arc. Vindicating Malcador's ruthlessness was a nice touch. I lost the ability to take Samus seriously a long time ago, but given his connection to Loken and Mersadie, I get why it had to be him. The astrological references in this arc were a nice touch, too - there's an interesting thread about it in the Age of Darkness subforum here.

 

The shrine on the comet was a nice touch, too. Has anyone calculated based on orbital periods which comet it was?

 

Yea I loved the comet aspect.

...a seemingly throwaway aspect that turned decisive. "Oh those silly chanting Word Bearers how like them to stay in the freakin' Sol System on a shrine of all places. How dumb are they--oh. Oh. OH. :cuss  What sort of foresight did they have? "

 

I, too, am scratching my head about Guilliman/Ultramarines. They have, what, half a Legion at most swooping in to save the day? The numbers involved in just attacking a single planet are greater than that. I don't get what makes Guilliman so scary in this situation other than Mary Sue ness. Please enlighten me.

[librisrouge]

I think a large part of the fear of the Ultramarine fleet emerges from the fact that Horus knows that the traitor legions are straight up weaker as military forces in an astartes on astartes conflict. I know a lot of traitor fans will hate me for typing that but I actually believe that. The loyalist legions are more cohesive, better able to work with each other and within the differing elements of their legions, and have a higher degree of military discipline. The traitors only have Horus holding them together, that and the prospect of slaughter and looting of Terra. The Ultramarines don't have to beat the traitors, they have to make them pay a high enough blood price that the varied elements of the traitor fleet can decide they're better off just not finishing the job.

 

Already varied warbands are forming that don't consider themselves to be members of the legions at all. These warbands seem to be used to serve as the vanguard of the traitor attack on Sol, with the intent that the chaos (small 'c') they cause will justify their inclusion on the attack at all. A few excerpts make them seem loony enough to launch suicide attacks even, making their military value questionable. Horus and Perturabo sure don't seem to give them much attention. If anything resembling a significant amount of the attacking traitor force is made up of marines like that, or of cult forces, that a cohesive demi-legion could easily be the balance tipper.

[Legionator]

John French was a wrong choice of author for this book IMHO. I really enjoyed Slaves to Darkness but apart from Zardu Layak's minor role, there wasn't much material from it.

[Wulfburk]

The Ultramarines are important because, as implied in the Solar War, the 3 Legions vs 8+ traitor legions was already going to go to the thick of it. From what i gathered, the Traitors are receiving more casualties than the loyalists (astartes only being taken into consideration), be them in the solar war, or in the siege itself. Which makes sense, after all one is attacking, and they are attacking the most fortified system in the galaxy.

 

Sigismund's counter attack in Pluto must've tipped the balance more to the loyalists, in the explosion of that station

 

Now, without the ultramarines, a possible result would've been traitor victory, but with a strenght of just 1 or 2 (or 3?) legions battered remaining. 

 

WIth the Ultramarines, which have pre solar war, a force that outnumbers most of the traitor legions, and indeed each of the 3 loyalists legions on Terra (although just slightly, for the Imperial Fists, i believe), the tide is turned completely, so that as everyone accepted, it is a matter of time. No longer the traitors expect a 2 legion strenght survival rate, but its all or nothing.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Praetorian of Dorn, Slaves to Darkness, and Templar are all pretty key to the plot, while elements of the ahriman series, tallarn and even crimson fist add further elements. He wrote them all. Praetorian of Dorn is actually the best read ahead of time for Solar War imo.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

I loved how technical it was in describing the logistics of the attack, and how "lived-in" the Solar System felt. I'm going to miss

Pluto's moons.

 

That said, the scale of the attacking fleets makes it hard to believe that they'd be scared of the Ultramarines and Dark Angels, especially with the Warp still favoring one side in its travels. Slaves to Darkness built up that concern pretty well, but the Traitors' numbers and successes in The Solar War kind of undid it for me.

 

I know it's a series and we'll get more coverage, but I really could've used a look at the falcon fleets after losing Jubal Khan and possibly the Lance of Heaven. Without a look at the consequences of his failure, it fell a little flat.

 

Thoroughly agree with Roomsky's take on the Mersadie arc. Vindicating Malcador's ruthlessness was a nice touch. I lost the ability to take Samus seriously a long time ago, but given his connection to Loken and Mersadie, I get why it had to be him. The astrological references in this arc were a nice touch, too - there's an interesting thread about it in the Age of Darkness subforum here.

 

The shrine on the comet was a nice touch, too. Has anyone calculated based on orbital periods which comet it was?

 

Yea I loved the comet aspect.

...a seemingly throwaway aspect that turned decisive. "Oh those silly chanting Word Bearers how like them to stay in the freakin' Sol System on a shrine of all places. How dumb are they--oh. Oh. OH.   What sort of foresight did they have? "

 

I, too, am scratching my head about Guilliman/Ultramarines. They have, what, half a Legion at most swooping in to save the day? The numbers involved in just attacking a single planet are greater than that. I don't get what makes Guilliman so scary in this situation other than Mary Sue ness. Please enlighten me.

 

 

Because the Traitors may have started with a large, powerful fleet, but they've 1) had to fight their way through the Solar system, taking heavy losses, 2) still will have to deal with the orbital defenses of Terra, and 3) are potentially about to have Guilliman's fleet pin them in place between the guns of the Ultramarine/Imperial fleet, and the ship-killing weaponry set up on Terra itself.

 

Guilliman is a threat because he's not only bringing the Ultramarines fleet, but also bringing every Imperial ship that he's managed to draft into the war, from Rogue Trader ships, to repurposed system defense fleets, all that and more refitted, armed, and organized under one of the greatest logistical minds in the galaxy. The Traitors, on the other hand, are fragmenting. Sure, the Iron Warriors appear largely unified, but the Sons of Horus are shown to have the bulk of their strength as "hothoused" recruits around a core of veteran Legionnaires. The Word Bearers are already untrusted after what Lorgar tried to pull on Ullanor. Angron, Mortarion, and Fulgrim aren't exactly thinking rationally any more, given their Primarchs are now Daemon Princes, with all the costs involved in that, and the World Eaters and Emperors Children have essentially ceased to exist as large-scale military organizations. The Night Lords aren't present in any great numbers, and are similar to the Emperors Children in temperament. The Thousand Sons don't exactly have a great naval strength, either. Lastly, there's the Alpha Legion, who like Lorgar and the Word Bearers aren't exactly trusted much, and also don't appear present in significant numbers, although admittedly that could be just how they want to appear.

 

So really, when the Imperial fleet arrives, from a planning perspective, Horus is going to have all his focus on taking down the Emperor, Perturabo is going to going to be torn between defeating Dorn and focussing on the fleets, Lorgar isn't exactly a naval commander, and the other Traitor Primarchs are more interested in their own whims and those of their God. The World Eaters/Emperors Children/Night Lords/Thousand Sons fleets can be basically discounted in this fight, due to either low numbers or "strategic difficulties", the Death Guard have shown they're not willing to blindly follow orders from Horus, and probably don't give a damn what Perturabo would have to say. 

Suffice to say, the Traitor forces aren't going to have a unified response to Guilliman's fleet arriving.

[carlisimo]

I still have a hard time seeing the threat. The traitor fleet is quite a bit larger than I expected (which is why I’m having this problem), capable of handling multiple defense spheres simultaneously, and the Ultramarines will have to dribble their way through heavily-defended gates or slowly drift in from outsystem. I’d be surprised if Guilliman had any space hulks with him, or Mechanicum warships drawing power directly from the Warp.

 

I assume the traitors attacked Pluto and Uranus specifically to defend the Solar System from the Ultramarines, otherwise those ships could have come through the rift with Horus. Or do we think the loyalist fleets at Pluto and Uranus could have intercepted the ships that came in with Abaddon and split off to the comet?

 

Also, isn’t having the Dark Mechanicum on your side, Mars included, fairly decisive?

 

I guess we’ll find out in the later books. I’m looking forward to another round of massive void battles.

[Marshal Rohr]

My money is an entire book dedicated to the arrival of the three reinforcing Legions and fighting their way to Terra. This keeps with the lore of only three legions on Terra while giving other Legions a roll to play.

[Wulfburk]

When the attack on terra starts i expect Horus to commit to it fully, leaving a strong presence in orbit (so the phalanx and the surviving loyalist ships arent able to conquer the orbit, but zero or minimum presence elsewhere in the solar system, at least in terms of space marines and their vessels.

 

It took 6 weeks to get to terra, focusing on terra for another month seems smart enough.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I still have a hard time seeing the threat. The traitor fleet is quite a bit larger than I expected (which is why I’m having this problem), capable of handling multiple defense spheres simultaneously, and the Ultramarines will have to dribble their way through heavily-defended gates or slowly drift in from outsystem. I’d be surprised if Guilliman had any space hulks with him, or Mechanicum warships drawing power directly from the Warp.

 

I assume the traitors attacked Pluto and Uranus specifically to defend the Solar System from the Ultramarines, otherwise those ships could have come through the rift with Horus. Or do we think the loyalist fleets at Pluto and Uranus could have intercepted the ships that came in with Abaddon and split off to the comet?

 

Also, isn’t having the Dark Mechanicum on your side, Mars included, fairly decisive?

 

I guess we’ll find out in the later books. I’m looking forward to another round of massive void battles.

 

The Traitors still had to send the initial ships, because it was the attacking Traitor fleet that caused the warp rift, not just the "spheres aligning" or whatever Mersadie believed. It had nothing to do with the coming Ultramarines.

 

The Traitor fleet is quite a bit larger before they had to batter their way through the Solar system. They're also currently unified at reaching Terra. Once they've done that, that unity is gone, and the focus is gone, now split between Terra and the fleet. Those harrier fleets, the pirates and other assorted scum? They're gone once Guilliman arrived. The Emperors Children, and Night Lords? They're gonna run. World Eaters? Either battering themselves against Terras defenses, or their naval forces are gonna Leroy Jenkins themselves in the hopes of getting skulls for Khorne. Mortarion? He's not going to take orders from Perturabo, so his fleet will be doing its own thing. Magnus? He barely brought a fleet, so he can be discounted. Alpha Legion? They're already barely there, so they aren't gonna count either. The Primarchs with an ability to counter Guillimans incoming fleet are Perturabo, who can't command the other Primarchs/Legions as effectively as what is required, and Horus, who's going to be entirely focussed on taking down the Emperor.

 

Sure, Guillimans fleet itself might not have the guns required to match one-for-one the Traitor fleet, but it doesn't need to. It's got the benefit of the guns of Terra, and it just needs to stop the traitor fleet from withdrawing, which it most certainly can do. The Traitors are already fragmenting, compared to the unified Loyalist fleets, who are going to be able to coordinate their efforts. This isn't just a case of "but the Traitors have more and bigger ships". They're not able to bring those to bear effectively. Horus managed to bring them under Perturabo's command only so far as it took to get them to Terra. Once there, they've slipped from his control, and Guilliman arriving isn't going to make them more disciplined. It's going to make half of them cut and run, and the other half look only to their own goals.

[Tymell]

I still have a hard time seeing the threat. The traitor fleet is quite a bit larger than I expected (which is why I’m having this problem), capable of handling multiple defense spheres simultaneously, and the Ultramarines will have to dribble their way through heavily-defended gates or slowly drift in from outsystem. I’d be surprised if Guilliman had any space hulks with him, or Mechanicum warships drawing power directly from the Warp.

 

I assume the traitors attacked Pluto and Uranus specifically to defend the Solar System from the Ultramarines, otherwise those ships could have come through the rift with Horus. Or do we think the loyalist fleets at Pluto and Uranus could have intercepted the ships that came in with Abaddon and split off to the comet?

 

Also, isn’t having the Dark Mechanicum on your side, Mars included, fairly decisive?

 

I guess we’ll find out in the later books. I’m looking forward to another round of massive void battles.

 

I don't think the attacks on Pluto and Uranus were specifically to set up fresh defences, rather they were part of the overall offensive (both in "real" terms and as part of the ritual to open that rift). Setting up defensive lines to cover their rear would take valuable time and manpower for the traitor forces, and a lot of it. Sure, they'll probably have some basic forces at the perimeter to keep watch, but I don't see them taking all the time and effort needed to set up properly there. This is all about going for the throat, the spear thrust that Horus is so known for.

 

Guilliman's forces (which, as others have noted, likely include more than just the XIIIth legion too) aren't a vast, overwhelming force that will sweep away all before them, no, but they -are- a significant force of arms, and they're coming from the rear. If they arrive, they're not just a threat on their own, but they force the traitors to split their armies and navies. At such a critical juncture, that could easily be fatal. And (again, as others have noted) a lot of the traitor forces may not be the most reliable, either fighting for their own self-interests, or simply too hard to marshal and control as much as the loyalists.

[carlisimo]

(Re: Lord Caerolion’s post)

 

I thought it was a small group of ships from Abaddon’s fleet that opened the warp rift, while the rest headed towards Luna. i.e. those ships entered the Solar System through blood sacrifice, not one of the two gates.

 

Your post makes sense if you don’t think the Traitor fleet is overwhelmingly powerful. I get the impression that it is. The coming books will probably show me why I’m wrong, and then I’ll accept it.

Edited June 5, 2019 by carlisimo

[b1soul]

@JH79, fire golem

 

It's in Path of Heaven IIRC

[Lord_Caerolion]

(Re: Lord Caerolion’s post)

 

I thought it was a small group of ships from Abaddon’s fleet that opened the warp rift, while the rest headed towards Luna. i.e. those ships entered the Solar System through blood sacrifice, not one of the two gates.

 

Your post makes sense if you don’t think the Traitor fleet is overwhelmingly powerful. I get the impression that it is. The coming books will probably show me why I’m wrong, and then I’ll accept it.

 

No, the scenes with Ahriman waiting on the comet show that Abaddon's fleet was the last piece of the puzzle, that the rest of the actions by the Traitor fleet had started the process, like the references to Pluto being crowned by fire, etc.

 

As for the Traitor fleet being overwhelmingly powerful, again, it may have started off that way, but they had to deal with the Imperial Fist spheres, the numerous system defenses, and have yet to get past the Phalanx and the defenses of Terra itself. They've taken an absolute beating. I mean, the Traitor fleet, sure, it's overwhelmingly powerful, but the Imperial Fists had the strongest fleet out of the Legions, and have also spent the entirety of the Heresy turning the Solar system and Terra in particular into the most defended killing-zone of the entire galaxy. The defenses the overwhelmingly powerful Traitor fleet is facing are also overwhelmingly strong. This wasn't a case of the Traitors just casually steam-rolling over the Imperial defenses without care, it was an absolute meat-grinder, costing the attackers with every inch they took. Hell, before the events of the end of the book, the Imperials had thought they'd won. The end placed it back in the balance, with Terra now being under attack itself, but still without neutralizing the remaining Loyalist fleets, the Phalanx, and any other anti-naval weaponry on Terra itself.

 

EDIT: Also, reading back, the Traitor fleet didn't handle multiple defense spheres simultaneously, they had the Iron Warrior-led push through the spheres one-by-one, while Abaddon led a smaller force which fought against the White Scar falcon fleets.

Edited June 5, 2019 by Lord_Caerolion

[MegaVolt87]

How long between the UM's kicking out the WB's, WE's and NL out of Ultramar while they were cut off from Terra and when they made a move to arrive? I imagine RG boosting up recruitment to make good the losses and have extra's. That would make more sense. Also if you all would listen to papa Perty, we would have won at Terra!*

 

*Old IW dreadnought yells at sky*

[bluntblade]

That was very, very good.

[Tymell]

How long between the UM's kicking out the WB's, WE's and NL out of Ultramar while they were cut off from Terra and when they made a move to arrive? I imagine RG boosting up recruitment to make good the losses and have extra's. That would make more sense. Also if you all would listen to papa Perty, we would have won at Terra!*

 

*Old IW dreadnought yells at sky*

 

The Shadow Crusade was in late 31,007, and Imperium Secundus was founded at the end of 31,009. Guilliman, Lion and Sanguinius set off in Ruinstorm in late 31,011. So there were probably 4/4.5 years between the worst of the traitor attacks and departing for Terra, though they were still likely being harassed by traitors in some fashion (including Pharos) during that time.

[karden00]

Is that time enough to mass produce astartes, given what we know of the recruitment capabilities of a realm as refined and geared for war as Ultramar, the tech available at the time (we're not talking about speedy Raven Guard marines here) and whatnot? I believe Pharos talked about this a bit, but I don't remember how long it takes in extreme circumstances to crank out a functioning, battle-ready Space Marine, when you're starting out with a pre-teen. I guess by the time the Calth atrocity and subsequent shadow crusade, we can assume there was a healthy amount of recruits already underway in some phase of the process, but...figures? 

[Marshal Rohr]

The problem with the recruitment is some authors go by the old pre-teen plus six years or whatever model is in the Codex. Forge world already mentioned there were masses of rapid implantations to boost numbers which is probably more dangerous for the recruits and causes a higher mortality rate but people are easy to replace.

[Wulfburk]

New recruits taken during the heresy itself counts for all parties though. Imperial Fists and White Scars boosted their numbers while in Terra, Horus and co.boosted their numbers with newborn and etc, Guilliman and co. at imperium secundus also most likely tried to rush a bit. So i guess it doesnt changes the ratio of strenght between the sides. Though i'd wager that from all of those PROBABLY the one that had the most success in new recruits is the ones on Terra as it had all the facilities and technology and a workforce already set in there.