The Siege of Terra: Solar War

[Marshal Loss]

Don't think of it as "the Ultramarines are so powerful that they can upend the entire Traitor advance." Instead, see Slaves to Darkness:

 

 

 

Remnants of Imperial Army conquest-echelons, Mechanicum Taghmata, rogue trader households, landless Knights and the shattered remnants of Legions thought broken at Isstvan V – all fought in the armies marshalled by the Ultramarines. They fought with discipline and a unity of purpose, and that purpose was retribution.

 

That's how I see it - Guilliman used the Pharos beacon to gather vast numbers of forces to his banner from across the galaxy. For all those years of the HH where Terra was cut off from the Imperium, the vast forces of the Great Crusade went straight to Ultramar; the presence of the beacon was not something the Traitors could have predicted. His leadership skills allow him to harness these disparate forces into a cohesive body large enough to actually threaten the Traitors. And if this body hits home when Horus dies, their lack of leadership leaves them vulnerable. The marine-centric nature of the series means that Gulliman and his marines get all the attention, but this is the only real explanation that works for me. The Ultramarines being large and powerful thanks to their resources I can understand, sure, but with Armatura destroyed, their primary recruiting world, they are still a diminished Legion. This is something that Imperium Secundus should have addressed, but FW will likely rectify this when they inevitably cover the Shadow Crusade.

 

edit: grammar

Edited June 6, 2019 by Marshal Loss

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yep, Guillimans fleet isn't a threat because he's bringing enough Ultramarines to single-handedly save the day, it's that he's mirrored what Horus did, but with the unified purpose to make it work. Horus gathered an armada of Rogue Traders, pirates, corsairs, secessionists, hereteks and more under his banner, all of which were either used as cannon fodder for the Astartes (not exactly fostering loyalty to Horus), or only siding with Horus in self-interest. When things start going badly, they're going to cut and run. This is in addition to the fractured nature of the Traitor Legions themselves. Compare this to Guilliman, who's managed to round up all the PDF forces that could be spared, Shattered Legion forces, Imperial Army, Mechanicus allies, refitted merchant vessels, basically any ship large enough to carry weaponry, and they're all solely devoted to the goal of saving the Imperium/Terra/Emperor.

 

The Ultramarines are a diminished Legion, yes, but Guillimans strength isn't just in the Ultramarines, its his ability for logistics and organization.

[Indefragable]

Admitted bias against Guilliman/XIII aside, my issue is less that RG is going to show up and save the day and rather that there is not enough context and exposition on the matter in The Solar War.

 

If the Siege of Terra series is supposed to be standalone from the HH novel series so that people can start with TSW rather than Horus Rising, then they’ve done a bad job explaining the RG threat. It literally just says “Guilliman is coming.”

 

What does that mean? Who is this Guilliman and why is his coming a big deal?

 

It’s my usual gripe of a BL work telling instead of showing.

Edited June 6, 2019 by Indefragable

[Marshal Rohr]

Admitted bias against Guilliman/XIII aside, my issue is less that RG is going to show up and save the day and rather that there is not enough context and exposition on the matter in The Solar War.

 

If the Siege of Terra series is supposed to be standalone from the HH novel series so that people can start with TSW rather than Horus Rising, then they’ve done a bad job explaining the RG threat. It literally just says “Guilliman is coming.”

 

What does that mean? Who is this Guilliman and why is his coming a big deal?

 

It’s my usual gripe of a BL work telling instead of showing.

If the Solar War is the first chapter in a stand-alone series, ‘Guilliman is coming’ with no explanation becomes its own Chekov’s fun to develop into a race against the clock narrative by the end of the series. If they slowly build on why Guilliman arriving matters over the course of the next three novels, and he arrives in the fifth/sixth as part of the narrative middle climax, it can become a powerful part of the story.

 

Examples of the trope in other fiction: the white walkers in Game of Thrones, the Emperor in Star Wars, Thanos is early MCU movies.

Edited June 7, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[Wulfburk]

Having sections off the solar war focusing on a Guilliman pov or someone in guilliman's fleet pov would be a waste of pages IMO. Better to leave something like that near the climax, meaning, when guilliman's fleet is about to appear in the solar system and both traitors and loyalists realize it, and then showing the repercussions of that news. And for those that are starting from the solar war, guilliman is massive reinforcements, not too complex to understand its importance.

Edited June 7, 2019 by Wulfburk

[Marshal Rohr]

They’re going to bring the other legions in somehow and describe them fighting. It’s inevitable.

[Moonreaper666]

From what I understand, it was much easier to mass produce and implant gene-seed during the early days of the Imperium due to cutting corners (just like the Thunder Warriors, Emperor never learns). One of the post-Heresy reforms was to decrease quantity in favor of increasing quality/purity of geneseed and recruits. (It is assumed that poor quality geneseed due to cutting corners can lead to Chaos corruption. A Chapter divided is certainly :cussed)

 

This would explain why the present day Chapters have a much harder time replenish their geneseed and recruits. Meanwhile, the Chaos Space Marines can easily replenish their Astarte numbers in a very short amount of time.

 

Heck, if it wasn't for the infighting and brutal non-stop wars with the Imperium (Looking at you World Eaters, Iron Warriors, Night Lords and Emperor's Children) the Traitor Legions could DROWN the Loyalists in countless waves of Chaos Space Marines

 

Is it worth cutting corners (using Archaoteach to mass produce instead of more natural ways of growing it) to get more geneseed if it increases the chance of Mutation and Chaos Corruption?

Edited June 7, 2019 by Moonreaper666

[Lord_Caerolion]

You have it absolutely backwards when it comes to Chaos Marines and their ability to replenish their ranks. There's a reason why Fabius Bile is in such high demand in the Eye, and it's because he's one of the few Apothecaries still able to reliably produce new Marines.

[DarkChaplain]

Nevermind the "Emperor never learns" thing about the Thunder Warriors. They were always meant to be disposable. It had nothing to do with cutting corners, but making an army that's easy to raise with built-in obsolescence because they were going to be supplanted by a better version soon after.

 

And yeah, as L_C said, the Traitors don't have it easy with recruits. They literally have to try stealing gene-seed or use daemonic breeding facilities and cloning to get new dudes onto the field. We've been shown time and again that raids on gene-seed storage facilities are vital for them to sustain themselves, and their implementation is far more ramshackle than what regimes Loyalist Chapters do, with years of induction, usually recruiting children from civilizations that idolize the Adeptus Astartes to begin with, rather than kidnapping and the likes.

 

Bringing up Chaos as using "more natural ways" is laughable, really. And then you name some of the Legions that have historically had the worst supply of pure gene-seed, to the point where the Iron Warriors went and stole Imperial Fists stock to keep their ranks filled? Wow.

[mc warhammer]

at least he wrote “from what i understand”, this time...

[Preliminary Bombardment]

I can't remember which book, but there is one passage regarding the dark angels recruitment, and Luther reporting that he got the development process for a new marine down to two years, so I would imagine if they could do that then the other legions could achieve something similar. Or likely faster given lower levels of quality control and unique traits such as Iron warriors gene seed being exceptionally good at being accepted.

 

As mentioned above, 42nd millennium chapters are far more cautious, also likely certain technology and techniques have been lost over the centuries.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

It quickly became a "quantity is a quality

In itself" affair. More so through losses than trying to gain the numerical advantage. Only way to succeed in that endeavour would be to open up the recruitment pool from A list only to A,B list only. Problem is some chapters went to far down the list they became A-Z. (Hillbilly genepool) level recruiters.

 

Also with quicker marine development rates i also imagine that would lend to higher levels of instability. A factor that would hamper both sides.

[DarkChaplain]

It's pretty much why Horus wants Luna so badly. As shown here, he had to amp up recruitment by letting in the dregs of various conquered planets, with little to no training post-ascension. Luna, meanwhile, opens up the gene-stocks and the original genhancement toolkit from the early Crusade era.

 

On the other hand, we have seen recruits from both the Imperial Fists (The Eagle's Talon) and Ultramarines (Pharos) before, and both Legions lamented that new generation never knowing the Crusade and how they have to rush their training out of necessity.

 

As for Luther, he may well be sitting on the largest single-Legion army at this point, due to having the time and means to recruit unimpeded. He's had decades to train and induct those rookies, even if they've never really seen the real war out in the galaxy. Now imagine Jonson having come to set things right with Luther, or at least to take back control and pick up recruits instead of Belath and co via Corswain... We might be talking about the Dark Angels coming to bite at Horus's butt instead of Guilliman.

[karden00]

It's pretty much why Horus wants Luna so badly. As shown here, he had to amp up recruitment by letting in the dregs of various conquered planets, with little to no training post-ascension. Luna, meanwhile, opens up the gene-stocks and the original genhancement toolkit from the early Crusade era.

 

On the other hand, we have seen recruits from both the Imperial Fists (The Eagle's Talon) and Ultramarines (Pharos) before, and both Legions lamented that new generation never knowing the Crusade and how they have to rush their training out of necessity.

 

As for Luther, he may well be sitting on the largest single-Legion army at this point, due to having the time and means to recruit unimpeded. He's had decades to train and induct those rookies, even if they've never really seen the real war out in the galaxy. Now imagine Jonson having come to set things right with Luther, or at least to take back control and pick up recruits instead of Belath and co via Corswain... We might be talking about the Dark Angels coming to bite at Horus's butt instead of Guilliman.

 

The problem for Luther is that he is recruiting from one single world. Now I am not trying to poo-poo the DA recruitment, it is said to be (almost?) uniquely efficient and effective. I've become something of a fan of the 1st legion's prestigious reputation of late. The question is, is the DA recruitment process so effective that it successfully offsets the limitations of recruiting from a single world? Even on a good day, Astartes production involves some ghastly ratios of dead boys to fully realized Space Marines. 

Pretty much any other Legion, I might argue especially, or even none so much as, Guilliman's, would have the largest populations from which to recruit from, which implies they have a fairly significant infrastructure to handle those kinds of numbers of intakes. 

 

A quick look at Tempest shows that after Calth, there were about 102,158 Ultramarines still alive. I note that this is before the outset of the Shadow Crusade, for which I've not heard of any solid casualty figures. Can we assume that while a bunch were lost, a bunch were being churned out/in the process of being churned out, a la Pharos? All things being even (and this IS an assumption on my part) can we say that the XIIIth is still in the ballpark of 100k legionaries? I don't recall, but did Ruinstorm tell us either a figure or a proportion of the XIIIth stayed behind while Bobby G and his boys went to Terra? 

 

All this to say, Horus knows Guilliman is at his back, he may not know just what kind of forces Guilliman has, and while I think I agree with everyone that Ol' Blue Balls couldn't take the combined traitor fleet alone,  he seems to represent enough of a challenge to the traitors, in that he is effectively cornering them with a force of legionaries that may be the largest single cohesive force left on the board. 

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Horus wasn't a fool either. He knew in real space he'd have to get the upper hand in every avenue of combat. But the biggest issue was that his demonic forces, although very threatening, couldn't hold a foothold without mortals to maintain the rituals and ensure tears in reality stayed open.

 

After the loyalists were able to level the playing field it soon became obvious that Horus would have his warp ties severed. (Or at least felt threatened enough to drop his shield to try and best the Emperor and smash loyalist morale) I'm assuming here that he had to expend enough force with the solar systems defences that even a slight % change meant he'd lose his "grip" on earth that any intervening force would force his hand.dark angels, space wolves or indeed ultras.

[bluntblade]

The FW fluff talks about some Legions managing to reduce the implantation process to under a year - there is a mention of that in the SoH passages too, I think.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Wouldn't surprise me. Old plot lines vs new.

[bluntblade]

It is specifically said that the pre-Heresy strength of some Legions wasn't necessarily their all-time peak.

[Knockagh]

Finished this. French has done this fine justice indeed.

I admit to being utterly gutted at Mersadie Olitons tragic end. The artists that supported the crusade fleets were one of a multitude of fabulous ideas that helped cement the heresy in my imagination. Mersadie being a firm favourite. Can’t find fault with the book at all, the warp scenes were excellent.

Next book awaits, don’t fancy being an author with this as the yard stick. No pressure folks!

[Manchu warlord]

Still haven't read it yet, curse it! 

 

Does the book mention, or gives clues/ideas the numbers of legionnaires from each of the legions taking place in the drama? 

I would imagine certain traitor legions like the World Eaters and Night Lords are much reduced from their original, pre-Isstvan size; not to mention the Thousand Sons. 

[Tymell]

Still haven't read it yet, curse it! 

 

Does the book mention, or gives clues/ideas the numbers of legionnaires from each of the legions taking place in the drama? 

I would imagine certain traitor legions like the World Eaters and Night Lords are much reduced from their original, pre-Isstvan size; not to mention the Thousand Sons. 

 

Nothing that I can recall. On the one hand it's been almost a decade of conflict, on the other hand we know that legions have continued recruiting while it's been going on. It's unlikely we'll get much in terms of real numbers until Forge World gets to the Siege.

[Marshal Loss]

HH: Inferno clarifies that the Thousand Sons have c. 10,000 marines at Terra. There isn't any information on what proportion of the Night Lords are present, but I would hesitate to assume that the Traitor Legions are much reduced from the start of the Heresy; HH: Conquest warns against this:

 

 

 

It is a common mistake among the uninitiated to assume that the strengths of the various Legions at the outset of the Horus Heresy represented their greatest force, which simply diminished by attrition until the end, like the dwindling playing pieces of a parlour game as it winds out to its conclusion. This could not be further from the truth.

 

The EC, for example, are noted as being at their strongest in the later stages of the war. Can't find the quote but it will pop up eventually. In any case, as Tymell says, unless one of the SoT novels has a pre-battle disposition available, then we'll have to wait until FW get around to the meat of the matter.

[DarkChaplain]

Just keep in mind that, again, FW's Black Books are written at least in part as in-universe records, and at least one of the authors was working on his official records right up until the Siege, as one of Malcador's confidants.

[Manchu warlord]

 

Still haven't read it yet, curse it! 

 

Does the book mention, or gives clues/ideas the numbers of legionnaires from each of the legions taking place in the drama? 

I would imagine certain traitor legions like the World Eaters and Night Lords are much reduced from their original, pre-Isstvan size; not to mention the Thousand Sons. 

 

Nothing that I can recall. On the one hand it's been almost a decade of conflict, on the other hand we know that legions have continued recruiting while it's been going on. It's unlikely we'll get much in terms of real numbers until Forge World gets to the Siege.

 

 

 

HH: Inferno clarifies that the Thousand Sons have c. 10,000 marines at Terra. There isn't any information on what proportion of the Night Lords are present, but I would hesitate to assume that the Traitor Legions are much reduced from the start of the Heresy; HH: Conquest warns against this:

 

 

 

It is a common mistake among the uninitiated to assume that the strengths of the various Legions at the outset of the Horus Heresy represented their greatest force, which simply diminished by attrition until the end, like the dwindling playing pieces of a parlour game as it winds out to its conclusion. This could not be further from the truth.

 

The EC, for example, are noted as being at their strongest in the later stages of the war. Can't find the quote but it will pop up eventually. In any case, as Tymell says, unless one of the SoT novels has a pre-battle disposition available, then we'll have to wait until FW get around to the meat of the matter.

 

I do not hide my ignorances, I only speak what I "assume", based off the HH novels.  I still remember very clearly, in Galaxy in Flames, after the Isstvan III battle, the World Eaters lost half their numbers.  They lose significant numbers during the Shadow Crusade and many more throughout the HH.  So, I imagine their numbers are then reduced significantly.  

The Night Lords, likewise, lost like a fifth during the Thramas crusade, roughly 20,000 astartes during the battle of Sotha, and many more throughout the Heresy.  So, once again, I imagine their numbers to be reduced a lot.  The other legions... I can't say.

 

If I am wrong, I apologies, and feel free to correct me... if you bother.

 

I tend to forget the in-between years that leads to the Siege of Terra, that the legions were recruiting.

[Marshal Loss]

HH: Conquest goes on to say:

 

 

From the outset, all sides strove to increase their recruitment of new Legiones Astartes, accelerating and expediting the process of gene-seed implantation and mimetic programming to unheard-of-speeds, often with disastrous consequences. Even before the calamity, it had been widely reported that it had become possible for the most callous Legions, such as the World Eaters, to cut down the creation time of a Space Marine to as little as two years, perhaps less, although the rate of failure was frighteningly high.

 

HH: Retribution, specific to the World Eaters:

 

Using the raw material of the gun-clanners, the apothecaries created a new generation of recruits. Where the process of creating a warrior of the Legiones Astartes should ordinarily be painstakingly undertaken over a period of years, this new generation was brought into being in months.

 

Even with the loss of Bodt this process was being performed by the World Eaters & their allies on other worlds. Nobody is disputing that some Legions, including the World Eaters, lost a staggering number of warriors throughout the war. But it's important to remember that they were simultaneously producing a vast number of recruits. As Solar War shows, these new soldiers aren't exactly the same quality as GC veterans, but they are still Astartes. You're not necessarily wrong on some of these individual points, I'm just saying that - as per FW's black books - we can't make blanket assumptions regarding troop dispositions at this stage.