The Siege of Terra: Solar War

[Sandlemad]

Honestly it's quite surprising that it's only in recent years that the fandom (and the FW/BL writers, in fairness) have woken up to the fact that legion recruitment simply must have continued during the heresy, even putting aside the stuff about the accelerated methods. Go back to some of the earlier heresy discussons online and it's very much a simplistic 'well, this legion lost X amount at Isstvaan, then another X during the war, so by 40k there is only a few thousand left'.

[Moonreaper666]

Honestly it's quite surprising that it's only in recent years that the fandom (and the FW/BL writers, in fairness) have woken up to the fact that legion recruitment simply must have continued during the heresy, even putting aside the stuff about the accelerated methods. Go back to some of the earlier heresy discussons online and it's very much a simplistic 'well, this legion lost X amount at Isstvaan, then another X during the war, so by 40k there is only a few thousand left'.

Didn'r the Word Bearers steal geneseed from dead loyalists during the Drop Site Massacre?

 

Geneseed naturally doubles itself within a year once implanted in somebody. Barring corruption and casualties, every Legion can double its size every year!

[Grand Master Laertes]

 

Honestly it's quite surprising that it's only in recent years that the fandom (and the FW/BL writers, in fairness) have woken up to the fact that legion recruitment simply must have continued during the heresy, even putting aside the stuff about the accelerated methods. Go back to some of the earlier heresy discussons online and it's very much a simplistic 'well, this legion lost X amount at Isstvaan, then another X during the war, so by 40k there is only a few thousand left'.

Didn'r the Word Bearers steal geneseed from dead loyalists during the Drop Site Massacre?

 

Geneseed naturally doubles itself within a year once implanted in somebody. Barring corruption and casualties, every Legion can double its size every year!

 

 

Not exactly, as it takes years for the progenoid glands to mature to the point of being usable, and even then it is still canonically unclear if they can be both explanted without provoking the death of the Space Marine (some sources say yes, other say no).

[DarkChaplain]

And the Word Bearers didn't implant the stolen gene-seed, but used it to provoke the Ruinstorm and bring Tormageddon into being iirc

[Biscuittzz]

 

A quick look at Tempest shows that after Calth, there were about 102,158 Ultramarines still alive. I note that this is before the outset of the Shadow Crusade, for which I've not heard of any solid casualty figures. Can we assume that while a bunch were lost, a bunch were being churned out/in the process of being churned out, a la Pharos? All things being even (and this IS an assumption on my part) can we say that the XIIIth is still in the ballpark of 100k legionaries? I don't recall, but did Ruinstorm tell us either a figure or a proportion of the XIIIth stayed behind while Bobby G and his boys went to Terra? 

 

All this to say, Horus knows Guilliman is at his back, he may not know just what kind of forces Guilliman has, and while I think I agree with everyone that Ol' Blue Balls couldn't take the combined traitor fleet alone,  he seems to represent enough of a challenge to the traitors, in that he is effectively cornering them with a force of legionaries that may be the largest single cohesive force left on the board. 

 

 

I think they said that fully 1/3 of each legion was left to defend Imperium Secundus, which imo is ghastly and has no benefit at all. Having an additional third of each legion would most likely have had a major effect on the outcome of the war........an extra 1/3 of BA at Terra? Caliban shenanigans doesn't happen if the Lion has an additional 1/3? etc.

 

If Horus had won, then the divided force left at Ultramar would stand no chance against the traitors anyway.

 

As an aside, it's noted in the Raven Guard arc that their new recruits are still made with the old methods, mainly because Corax said no to any sort of accelerated program after the raptors incident. What I found interesting was that the recruits were bred and indoctrinated to be a fighting force against other marines rather than the typical GC era marine. I assume it's the same for recruits of the majority of legions though.

[Kelborn]

Alright guys.

 

We already got a thread covering a potential Scouring series. I invite you all to continue this talk over there as I'm eager to have this era covered, as well.

I moved your post so that we can keep it clean in here.

 

This one's about the Solar War. Back to topic.

Edited June 14, 2019 by Kelborn

[Skalpynock]

The mongrel SoH passage mentions he's been uplifted to Astartes in a mere 6 months, if anyone wanted solid figures.

[Tymell]

The mongrel SoH passage mentions he's been uplifted to Astartes in a mere 6 months, if anyone wanted solid figures.

 

To clarify, it says "He was transhumanly strong, and had all the skills that six months of battle hypnosis could give." So it doesn't necessarily mean the entire process was 6 months. I can't recall the details of the (30k) process off the top of my head, but I'd assume the actual battle hypnosis doesn't begin until some way through the full creation process.

[Carach]

Guys i just bought this (was surprised to see it available on amazon before titandeath)

 

Is titandeath and buried dagger essential reading before this terra business kicks off or can i safely ignore them and start going balls deep into this book?

 

Were there any important side stories that i should read from them beforehand? Buried dagger had knights errant stuff right?

 

So weird though that this is available on amazon immediately whereas titandeath has literally only just become available yesterday and buried dagger isnt about until september..

Edited June 16, 2019 by Carach

[Marshal Loss]

You can ignore them as they have very little relevance to Solar War. I'd recommend reading Slaves to Darkness & Praetorian of Dorn prior if you haven't already though.

[Roomsky]

Guys i just bought this (was surprised to see it available on amazon before titandeath)

 

Is titandeath and buried dagger essential reading before this terra business kicks off or can i safely ignore them and start going balls deep into this book?

 

Were there any important side stories that i should read from them beforehand? Buried dagger had knights errant stuff right?

 

So weird though that this is available on amazon immediately whereas titandeath has literally only just become available yesterday and buried dagger isnt about until september..

 

Neither of them have any real baring on this particular book. There's no carry-over from Beta Garmon and the protagonists of Buried Dagger don't appear.

[Carach]

Cheers for quick response guys - its bed time and i needed those answers as the book is just sat there staring at me. Tempting me. Now i can delve into its pages with a clean conscience

[bluntblade]

I keep returning to the moment when Abaddon reaches Luna. Trying to work out what it is about that scene that's so potent for me.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Doth though have a snippet I can readeth?

[Moonreaper666]

I keep returning to the moment when Abaddon reaches Luna. Trying to work out what it is about that scene that's so potent for me.

Laylak's teachings are finally having an effect on Abby. He is using more of his intelligence, wit and charisma instead of just being an angry head-on captain

 

This is the point we see the Abaddon from the Black Legion Novels. It helps that both Luna and Harmony are subjected to a kamikazi strike

[bluntblade]

I don't think it's Layak's teachings - mostly he annoys Abaddon - so much as that once again we're seeing the full spectrum of Abaddon as opposed to when McNeil writes him and he shrinks down to a rage-monster.

[Moonreaper666]

I don't think it's Layak's teachings - mostly he annoys Abaddon - so much as that once again we're seeing the full spectrum of Abaddon as opposed to when McNeil writes him and he shrinks down to a rage-monster.

"Saving a life creates a bond" Laylak to Abaddon after saving the latter from the White Scars (Abaddon repeats the line when he saves Laylak later on)

 

Laylak's mentoring of Abaddon reminds me of Kor Phaeron to Lorgar

 

Xorphas from the current time also took Laylak's teachings to heart, though there are pragmatic benefits to not grinding your troops in trench warfare like the Iron Warriors

[bluntblade]

That's not a teaching, so much as them learning to warily respect one another.

 

Abaddon has already learned that lesson from his oath Companions on Cthonia, let alone his Legion brothers.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Also, mystical preachers spout profound words of wisdom all the time, it's basically their schtick. It's not necessarily meant to be literally true.

[Moonreaper666]

Also, mystical preachers spout profound words of wisdom all the time, it's basically their schtick. It's not necessarily meant to be literally true.

Laylak and Siege of Terra Abaddon's thoughts and words foreshadow everything about the Black Legion Abaddon. The meaning of brotherhood, destined for greatness, chosen by the gods, rejecting Horus etc.

[DarkChaplain]

....and they're all generic "prophecies" about this or that chosen one in fiction.

 

The Power of Friendship? Check.

A Great Destiny? Check.

Chosen by a higher power? Check.

Rejecting one's Father / Mentor? Check.

 

I mean, isn't that basically just Layak telling Abaddon that he's gotta go do the whole Hero's Journey stuff?

[Lord_Caerolion]

They're also things that basically every major character in the Heresy has been discussing between themselves. Hell, Sanguinius has basically spent the entire Heresy moping about exactly those things, the loss of his brother Horus, what his wings mean, etc. 

[MegaVolt87]

....and they're all generic "prophecies" about this or that chosen one in fiction.

 

The Power of Friendship? Check.

A Great Destiny? Check.

Chosen by a higher power? Check.

Rejecting one's Father / Mentor? Check.

 

I mean, isn't that basically just Layak telling Abaddon that he's gotta go do the whole Hero's Journey stuff?

 

Yeah its pretty much the hero's journey, except Abby is missing a tsundere/frenemy I guess. 

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

....and they're all generic "prophecies" about this or that chosen one in fiction.

 

The Power of Friendship? Check.

A Great Destiny? Check.

Chosen by a higher power? Check.

Rejecting one's Father / Mentor? Check.

 

I mean, isn't that basically just Layak telling Abaddon that he's gotta go do the whole Hero's Journey stuff?

Yeah its pretty much the hero's journey, except Abby is missing a tsundere/frenemy I guess.

I think Abaddon is meant to be a Hero/Idol for Chaos Space Marines/Lost and Damned post-Heresy. Some of the mortal followers of Chaos represent the 'freedom' that people in Real Life inherently want in a Capitalist-Anarchist sort of way (Think Rapture from Bioshock and Mad Max)

 

It is inevitable that Horus, Abaddon and many others rebel against the Imperium. Even if they die, somebody will replace them as you can't kill an idea or an emotional need

 

The stratified, homogenous and conservative Imperium will inevitably create rebellious elements that would seek out opposite ideals and better opportunities. The Horus Heresy was not only inevitable but going to repeat (Nove Terra, Badab War, etc.)

 

The Sons of Horus and Black Legion filled that void