Horus Heresy Marine recruit progression?

[SITZKRIEG!]

I was wondering if there is a source that gives us insight as to how marines progressed through the ranks prior to and during the Horus Heresy. Obviously scouts as we knew them in 40k prior to the primaris don't exist in the HH and I couldn't find a reference to the progression a recruit goes through once they entered the legion. I'd assume they'd start in a tactical squad or tactical support squad but that's conjecture on my part based in part by the (now defunct) progression that 40k marines used to have. I'd assume there is some variation between the legions as the centuries progressed during the Great Crusade but I couldn't in my admittedly limited resources find a baseline. I hoped that maybe it was covered either in one of the HH FW tomes or a BL novel.

[Vykes]

That's a really good question.  I had to kinda ponder it for a while and I don't recall if anything was particularly clear.  I'd hazard a guess that 'it depends' on legions and time periods.  It may also depend based on when the book was written.  

 

Anyway, this is all from memory and partially conjecture because it has been a while, feel free to correct me ya lovely lot.  

 

I seem to recall from the short story about the Salamander survivors on Istvaan V (I wanna say the story was Unforged?) that the salamanders do use the neophyte scout method of training legionnaires as of the survivors squad the scout was the pre-full implantation very similar to 40K astartes.  Likewise, the Pharos seems to have the Ultramarines also following this doctrine with the youngest non-legionnaires being scouts just prior to being allowed the final rites.  So those seem like a point in favour of ye newfangled 40K astartes practices in 30K.

 

But I also seem to recall in one of the Dark Angels books (maybe Angels of Caliban) that Luther had been able to properly alter, train, and forge full battle legionnaires in something like 18 months down from 30-some, and ready to be dispatched as replacements.  Likewise, I seem to recall Scars having a section with the prospective legionnaire finished his training and becoming a battle brother only to be shipped off to a different legion as a line trooper.  It was after a few years, but I don't think it was full scout training.  Duty Waits has an Imperial Fist line legionnaire recount the sensation of hypnotherapy and still fading his memories of his past (something the Ultramarine in Pharos said is happening to them if I'm not mistaken) which might speak to a similar time period.  

 

Beyond that, wasn't the World Eaters on Bodt in the Black Books using both quick grown and gun clan recruits to forge initiates that move to legionnaires? Dunno, I always worry about following World Eaters as I find I might fall into their thrall. 

 

Overall, I don't know.  I'd suspect that while it differs, the shortened process might be scout neophyte to tactical squads on the units that use that progression, but others seem to forge ahead to straight line squad recruitment which might advance to veteran tactical squads later on.  

[Pearson73]

I know that in the opening trilogy of the Heresy novels, several references are made to scout companies and neophytes, who undergo the final stages of surgery/genhancment to replace fallen warriors, as and when required within the Sons of Horus.

[SITZKRIEG!]

@Vykes:  Thanks.  Yeah, I think I remember some of those stories.   I was big into the HH novels during the first five years but my relative waning of interest in the 40k rules during 7th also affected my interest in the fluff (along with BL drawing out the HH in the real world to seemingly longer than it was in the fluff!).  I was hoping that maybe one of the excellent FW HH rulebooks had a discrete unit or side bar that explained it in no uncertain terms.

 

@Pearson:  Hmmm.  I might have to take a look through those then as I think I still have them in my collection.  I don't recall it myself but admittedly it wouldn't have stuck out for me at the time.

[Monkeychunks]

Deliverance Lost provides a bit of information on this.

Neophytes are trained up as Scouts upon being accepted into the Legion. The next step is apparently a Tactical Squad.

 

It's after the Massacre and the quote is something like "I want all of our experienced Neophytes out of the Scouts and into the Tactical companies. From now on, all of our recruits skip Scout and go straight to Tactical".

[Marshal Rohr]

It seems like they do their training while being implanted and are then attached to line units as soon as the implantation is finished. 

[Brother Pheidias]

Likewise, I seem to recall Scars having a section with the prospective legionnaire finished his training and becoming a battle brother only to be shipped off to a different legion as a line trooper.  It was after a few years, but I don't think it was full scout training.

Just going to nit-pick, this reassignment was before implantation began. The recruit in question was just outside the requirements for one of the, shall we say favoured, legions.

[Arkangilos]

That makes me wonder if Guilliman got the scouts prior to marine from the Raven Guard Legion. He did use practices from each Legion in the Codex

[Vykes]

 

Likewise, I seem to recall Scars having a section with the prospective legionnaire finished his training and becoming a battle brother only to be shipped off to a different legion as a line trooper.  It was after a few years, but I don't think it was full scout training.

Just going to nit-pick, this reassignment was before implantation began. The recruit in question was just outside the requirements for one of the, shall we say favoured, legions.

 

 

Good catch, mate.  I was going off memory, and frankly the overwhelming part of that memory was "wait :cuss, legions do that?  They transfer recruits to other legions if needed?"

[Noserenda]

Its tricky because you never quite know whether anything the same as 40k is deliberate or an author not thinking to check. Certainly some Legions use the 40k progression via scouts but some legions also specifically dont (Much like the Space wolves in 40k!) from the way things have shaken out id certainly suspect the Bellicosa instructs the latter given the "Older" legions and the Primarchs less interested in tweaking procedures (Like Angron) seem to use it, you could certainly follow some logic from Guiliman coming up with the Idea and influencing Corax and Horus for example.

[SITZKRIEG!]

Another user elsewhere posted this in response to the question.   There are alot of caveats in that it's the uncaring and extremely pragmatic Iron Warriors and that his induction appears rushed but at least it gives a hint that at least some marines go right into tactical squads.  I don't have the HH6 book so I don't know the plotline beyond just a one or two line synopsis from a FW advert years ago.  Also, I hadn't thought of looking at the art pages for this kind of info rather sticking instead to the fluff and rules chapters.

 

[Nova_Dew]

Then there's issues with the BA's, how did they handle it before Sang was found, what about after sang was found but before the invention and building of the sarcophagi? after there invention and use it was a case of recruit in, fully formed and hypnodoctrinated marine out.

[bluntblade]

The Black Books do emphasise that implantation tended to take years, and the accelerated procedures of the Heresy had a frightful toll of dead aspirants.

[Ghorgul]

FW HH II book describes Night Lords this way: "... rapid psycho-conditioning and accelerated gene-seed implantation was also known to be widely practiced by the Night Lords.." but no mention is made how quick this process was.