Improving knowledge of CC rules/movement during fight phase

[SanguiniusJr]

Hey All!

I was watching a video on YouTube the other day- D3volution. Its this British gent who posts a great deal of tactics videos. In the videos that I watched he was showing ways that a player could utilize assault rules to gain extra movement. In the video he got 3 inches of "consolidation," and 3 inches of "pile in" effectively getting his berserkers into combat for a second time without charging. I have some questions regarding these rules.

 

So I am aware of consolidation movements at the conclusion of melee-
1)Does this only occur after the unit(s) charged have been destroyed? 

2) How many pile ins does a unit get- does it get 1 per fight phase, or 2? 

3) Would you want to keep a second assault unit effectively "in combat" but then keep a model in congruence far out to make the most of these rules? (especially if you expect your first unit to wipe the charged unit(s) )

 

Sorry if I'm not clear, but I want to learn more about these movements during fight phase to make me a better CC player.

[BluejayJunior]

The order of operations for the fight phase are: 1) pick a unit, 2) pile in, 3) resolve attacks, 4) consolidate.

 

You can always consolidate 3" with a unit, whether or not it destroyed the enemy unit. But remember each model, must end closer to the nearest unit. You also do it right after the unit fights, not at the end of the phase. 

 

A unit gets to pile in each time it is activated to fight in the fight phase. So if a unit fights a second time (Berserkers or using a stratagem) it gets to pile in, attack, consolidate again. 

 

For your last question, it depends on what you trying to accomplish with your fight phase. You can use charging to get some extra movement, which can be useful if you are trying to get into combat with a vehicle (or other unit) to prevent it from shooting. Sometimes you just want to kill the unit you are charging. Sometimes you want to move so you have surrounded a unit so that it can't fall back. 

 

If you want more tips for the fight/charge phases, check out Nights at the Game Table as well. They have some good articles about the nuances of the fight phase. 

[Morticon]

The best advice I can give to BA generals for melee, is to not move models into base to base when you charge.

 

Always leave a gap so that you can shuffle around models for the pile in move. Likewise, always leave a gap when you're piling in so you can shuffle round in the consolidation phase. When you are base to base you essentially cannot move any closer to the closest unit and as a result would be "stuck" in that position.

 

The only time you want to move a model base to base is when you want to prevent an enemy model from moving.

[Panzer]

^this

The fight phase says that for a pile-in move each model has to move closer to the nearest enemy model. If your model is already base-to-base it's physically impossible to get even closer so a pile-in move is not allowed for that one.

[Xenith]

Remember that Berzerkers have a special rule that lets them pile in and fight a second time. That might explain what you're seeing. 

[BluejayJunior]

Also, any unit that charges gets to activate, pile in, and consolidate, even if the unit it charged gets destroyed or models are removed in a way that means they are no longer within one inch of an enemy.

So if units A and B charge enemy unit Z and A kills Z, B can still pile in and consolidate towards the nearest enemy. But would not be able to fight another unit that it piled into unless it had been declared as a target of the charge. 

[Panzer]

That's right. You can activate a unit if they either are within 1" of an enemy or if they successfully(!) charged (even if there's no enemy within 1" anymore by the time you want to activate them). So if they've successfully charged an enemy but don't have any enemy model within 1" anymore for whatever reason you can still activate them and do the pile-in move and if that's enough to get a unit within 1" again you can still fight.

 

 

 

Note that a unit that has declared a charge that turn is only allowed to fight the unit it declared a charge against!

 

Example:

Your Vanguard Veterans declare a charge against unit A. For whatever reason unit A gets destroyed (a second unit that charged or is allowed to fight first or whatever). Your Vanguard Veterans can still get activated because they charged that turn so you do your pile-in move and it's enough to get within 1" of unit B. Your Vanguard Veterans are NOT allowed to attack unit B because you didn't declare a charge against them, only against unit A. However your opponent can now activate unit B because they have an enemy within 1" and are allowed to attack your Vanguard Veterans without having declared a charge against them because they didn't charge that turn.

 

That's why you always want to declare a multi-charge against all units you could potentially reach (if their Overwatch isn't too much to handle). You only need to get within 1" of one of your announced targets, not all of them.

Often when my actual target is pretty far away I declare a charge against the target I actually want to charge and a target nearby I can reach as alternative in case I roll terribly for my charge roll (last match my Librarian Dreadnought was standing between some shooty Tyranid warriors on one side and some Genestealer on the other side, so I declared a charge against the Tyranid warriors 10" away and also against the Genestealers only 4" away despite them being on completely opposite directions just so my Librarian Dread wouldn't get caught out in the open in case I don't reach the warriors).

[mihtjel]

You can always consolidate 3" with a unit, whether or not it destroyed the enemy unit. But remember each model, must end closer to the nearest unit. You also do it right after the unit fights, not at the end of the phase. 

 

At the risk of being labeled a pedant, I feel obliged to correct you: Each model must end closer to the nearest enemy model.

 

While you can consolidate or pile in into a unit not previously in combat, you may have to be very careful which model you try to do so with, for the move to be legal.

 

 

It is, by the way, also possible to start in combat with unit A, pile in into combat with a new enemy unit B, fight either, and consolidate out of combat with unit A, if your original pile in move placed you closer to B than to A, while still getting closer to A than where you started.

 

... your opponent may dislike this maneuver. ;-)

[Panzer]

 

You can always consolidate 3" with a unit, whether or not it destroyed the enemy unit. But remember each model, must end closer to the nearest unit. You also do it right after the unit fights, not at the end of the phase. 

 

At the risk of being labeled a pedant, I feel obliged to correct you: Each model must end closer to the nearest enemy model.

 

While you can consolidate or pile in into a unit not previously in combat, you may have to be very careful which model you try to do so with, for the move to be legal.

 

 

It is, by the way, also possible to start in combat with unit A, pile in into combat with a new enemy unit B, fight either, and consolidate out of combat with unit A, if your original pile in move placed you closer to B than to A, while still getting closer to A than where you started.

 

... your opponent may dislike this maneuver. ;-)

 

 

I don't see how that's possible as you have to do the exact same thing for the pile-in move as well. If you pile-in you get closer to the closest enemy model so if you consolidate you can't suddenly move away from it.

[BluejayJunior]

 

You can always consolidate 3" with a unit, whether or not it destroyed the enemy unit. But remember each model, must end closer to the nearest unit. You also do it right after the unit fights, not at the end of the phase. 

 

At the risk of being labeled a pedant, I feel obliged to correct you: Each model must end closer to the nearest enemy model.

 

While you can consolidate or pile in into a unit not previously in combat, you may have to be very careful which model you try to do so with, for the move to be legal.

 

 

It is, by the way, also possible to start in combat with unit A, pile in into combat with a new enemy unit B, fight either, and consolidate out of combat with unit A, if your original pile in move placed you closer to B than to A, while still getting closer to A than where you started.

 

... your opponent may dislike this maneuver. ;-)

 

Thank you for the clarification for piling in. I mispoke, but unit vs model is a very important distinction in the fight phase. 

 

I guess if all your models were within an inch of A, but still closer to B, you could pile in to B and get away from combat with A. If there is enough room to get out of 1 inch of A. But if you're already in combat with A, it would be nearly impossible to position yourself to be able to move all your units away from A and towards B. I suppose it's technically possible, but I can't see that actually coming up ever. 

[Morticon]

This type of thing will happen more often than you think with either very good players, or very poor players.  

In the case of poor players, they remove closest, freeing up your guys to go into units you'd like to. 

in the case of good players, they remove the closest models from unit A, meaning unit B are closer to us now.  This allows unit A to be free from combat and ready to shoot/charge in their turn. 

it's something we as BA players need to keep an eye out for! 

[mihtjel]

 

I don't see how that's possible as you have to do the exact same thing for the pile-in move as well. If you pile-in you get closer to the closest enemy model so if you consolidate you can't suddenly move away from it.

 

Assuming your unit is a single model makes it easier to demonstrate: You start .9 inches away from a model from A, and 1.5 inches away from a model from B. It might be possible to pile in to be within .8 inches from the model from A, and .7 inches from the model from B. When you later consolidate, B's model is now the model you need to end closer to, and you can leave combat with A.

 

It's a very situational thing, and probably not something that's going to happen very often; but as Morticon points out, unit and model placement in close combat is key for BA players.

 

Edit: I made a few crude drawings of the situation and put them om imgur: https://imgur.com/a/ux6g3hW

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

This is by far the most powerful edition for melee - enjoy.

[The Unseen]

This is by far the most powerful edition for melee - enjoy.

 

You joking right?

Melee is weaker in 8th than it's been probably been in any edition of 40k ever. Except maybe rogue trader, but that's because that thing was crazy and I have no idea what it was like to play it.

 

The fact that we're all using these weird pseudo exploits to try and make melee work just shows how absolute garbage it is this edition. Especially when GW keeps finding ways to nerf assault every FAQ.

 

But on topic, yeah, mastering how to move models during the assault phase is super important, especially for us. I've had games decided over a half inch of movement. DC staying locked in combat vs hanging out in front of the enemies entire army are very very different game states, and it all can come down to how you move the models.

[Panzer]

I disagree. 7th was way worse for melee.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Eighth is the most powerful due to things like being able to fight twice and heroically intervene... plus especially for BA all the crazy good stratagems.

[The Unseen]

I disagree. 7th was way worse for melee.

How do you figure sfPanzer?

Just comparing it to 7th, we lost

+1 attack on the charge

+1 attack for 2 weapons

Sweeping advances went the way of the dodo bird

Enemies can just straight up walk out of combat 90+ % of the time, which used to be a very limited special rule that also had a chance of failure.

 

And we gained

Unreliable charge out of deep strike unless your one of a handful of factions that get to do it semi reliably with 1 unit thanks to a strat

 

That's it, far as I'm aware.

 

And thats not even mentioning all the buffs to shooting, like reroll auras, changes to cover and ap, etc.

Just the melee rules themselves are worse, with shooting buffs on top.

 

And yeah, fighting twice with one unit is so awesome, compared to last edition where any unit could be scary on the charge /s

 

I haven't and don't have the time to run the numbers, but I'm betting a unit of 7th ed DC with a chaplain backing them up would do more damage in 7th than an 8th unit of DC would with a chaplain and the fight twice strat on the charge

 

8th edition DC, 3 attacks each, 4 with a chainsword, rerolling misses, +1 to wound

 

7th edition DC, 5 attacks each, 4 with a specialist weapon, rerolling misses and failed wounds, +1 Strength

 

Edit: ohh, I forgot, any model making it into base contact on the charge with a jump pack would also get hammer of wrath in 7th, remember that rule?

It made assault marines go from absolute trash to just poor.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Sorry it’s not working out for you... hitting on 3+ versus 4+ is huge in my opinion. +1 to wound for BA is really huge too, way better than furious charge. I don’t think DC was competitive the last edition to be honest... not compared to how amazing they once were.

[BluejayJunior]

 

 

I don't see how that's possible as you have to do the exact same thing for the pile-in move as well. If you pile-in you get closer to the closest enemy model so if you consolidate you can't suddenly move away from it.

 

Assuming your unit is a single model makes it easier to demonstrate: You start .9 inches away from a model from A, and 1.5 inches away from a model from B. It might be possible to pile in to be within .8 inches from the model from A, and .7 inches from the model from B. When you later consolidate, B's model is now the model you need to end closer to, and you can leave combat with A.

 

It's a very situational thing, and probably not something that's going to happen very often; but as Morticon points out, unit and model placement in close combat is key for BA players.

 

Edit: I made a few crude drawings of the situation and put them om imgur: https://imgur.com/a/ux6g3hW

 

Okay, I get what you're saying. I was picturing it with an entire squad. It makes much more sense with a single model unit. 

[The Unseen]

Sorry it’s not working out for you... hitting on 3+ versus 4+ is huge in my opinion. +1 to wound for BA is really huge too, way better than furious charge. I don’t think DC was competitive the last edition to be honest... not compared to how amazing they once were.

 

I never said I wasn't making it work. I just know it's harder to do than it was since I've been playing since 4th, and know the rule set is pushing me to play with more shooting units.

And just because BA specifically got a better rule, and I agree, they did, doesn't mean melee isn't worse in general.

 

And I don't know what you were doing in 7th, but the DC formation for 7th was absolutely insane, Free pre-game move for EVERY unit, not just 1 unit for 2 CP, and they all got I think +1 attack a lot of the time, forgot exactly how though, might've been when outnumbered or with a chaplain nearby. And they had a 5+++, rather than the joke of a fnp they have now.

 

And against T3, 4, 5, and 8,  +1 Strength and +1 to wound are functionally identical in 7th. Is it better? Yeah. But only really matters against T7. And most of the things that are now T7 used to have rear armor that you could hurt in melee with Str5.

 

But that's all BA specific stuff, not the rules as a whole.

[Slothysaur]

At least for me, what made this edition harder for melee, was the excessive tuning down of DC, DC Chaplain, and Dante as well as the death of podded Fragiosos and podded heavy flamer tacticals. Between 3 units of DC rushing up the board and 3 templates dropped in their deployment my melee usually saw great results. Now my best results in melee generally come from Intersessors claiming the midfield and Captain Slamguine surgically removing whatever threat I need removes.

I think this edition requires greater supporting fire from the shooty element of the army and that we have to be even more discerning and crafty with our melee units. They're much more fragile and have fewer attacks (however the fewer attacks is somewhat mitigated by hitting on a 3 as opposed to what was usually a 4 last edition). It's hard to compare 7th to 8th because of the massive overhaul the game received but that's my take anyways.

Finally to make sure I end on topic, I am excited to try out the new warlord trait, Princeps of Deceit, on a phobos librarian. We can easily set up 3 units incredibly aggressively (lets say melee scouts) and if we are seized on and lose first turn we can remove them from their garunteed deaths.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I wasn’t into the formations as I think they were a major part of the problem with the last Edition. Being able to move more than one unit is good though. I don’t have any problems getting into combat though... Wings is basically the same thing.

 

"And against T3, 4, 5, and 8, +1 Strength and +1 to wound are functionally identical in 7th. Is it better? Yeah. But only really matters against T7. And most of the things that are now T7 used to have rear armor that you could hurt in melee with Str5."

 

It’s a big deal for weapons that double the model’s strength.

[SanguiniusJr]

Is there a specific rule that reifies the three points of contact to "trap" enemy units in combat? Anyone know where I could find it?

I got into a bit of a squabble with a Tau player over this, but couldn't find it in any rules directly stated.  I had some of his fire warriors trapped, but then lost the "roll off"

 

[Panzer]

Is there a specific rule that reifies the three points of contact to "trap" enemy units in combat? Anyone know where I could find it?

 

I got into a bit of a squabble with a Tau player over this, but couldn't find it in any rules directly stated.  I had some of his fire warriors trapped, but then lost the "roll off"

 

 

 

Just the basic movement rules. If a model without FLY keyword can't physically move between enemy models it can't go that way, so if you put a model in basecontact on three sides he can't move the unit out of combat.

[Slothysaur]

Is there a specific rule that reifies the three points of contact to "trap" enemy units in combat? Anyone know where I could find it?

 

I got into a bit of a squabble with a Tau player over this, but couldn't find it in any rules directly stated.  I had some of his fire warriors trapped, but then lost the "roll off"

 

 

 

Just going a little bit more detailed, probably was mentioned above, but since you mentioned it as "three points of contact" I wanted to clarify a bit. If you only have 2 models surrounding the enemy model, the enemy model could escape because you wouldn't be able to surround it. Whne looking at models with similar sized bases, the minimum models needed to surround an enemy model is three in a triangle shape, hence the term used here frequently, "tri-locking". Now if all three of these models were on one side of said enemy model, (think three tactical marines on one side of dreadnought) it could still potentially escape combat. So three points of contact is sometimes not enough, nor is it a rule, you've got to abuse geometry to trap enemy models in combat. Hopefully that bit of rambling helps, melee is a tough thing this edition and we've got to be smart about it.