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What's Working, Kin? Why?


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#51
Karack Blackstone

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While not quite the same value, a Resilience value, or R stat, does about the same thing. A Land Raider might be 5 R, or maybe even 6 R. A Spartan would certainly be 6, for example.

 

Lasguns would need to hit and then wound five total times to inflict a single armor save against any vehicle with 5 R, for example. So, that 30 Guardsmen wall would need 30 hits, and 30 wounds to force six (6) armor saves. With AP0, or AP-, at that point, too.

 

So, AV is unlikely to ever come back; the R stat might work in a pinch.

 

R value:

1 - Guard

2 - Astartes

3 - Land Speeder

4 - Rhino, Dreadnought

5 - Land Raider, Venerable(?) Leviathan Dreadnought

6 - Spartan, Fellblade

+ - ?

 

The clear issue would be the full rework of other values, such as 14 point, 2 W, 2 R, 4 T Astartes, 4 point Guard as is, etc.



#52
PeteySödes

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That’s so much more book keeping than will ever happen.

#53
One Two Wolf

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One or the other (R value or return to armour values) would make a big difference though. While wounding remains tough with low S weapons the idea that a bolt pistol can detonate a LR irks me a bit. Just doesn't feel quite right.

With primaris i don't imagine regular astartes will get 2W, but I have a quiet positive vibe I'm sendimg out to see TDA lifted to T5.

#54
The Unseen

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The bolt pistol isn't detonating a Land Raider. You need 37 bolter HITS to take off a single wound on average. If your land raider is on 1 wound and someone riddles it with bolter fire, they either shot the driver because the armor around him had big holes in it, or shot the exposed reactor, or whatever. Fact of the matter is, vehicles and monsters with 10+ wounds don't really care about small arms fire all that much, they can scratch the paint or finish off crippled vehicles, but thats ok. Having a bunch of units running around literally immune to the vast majority of the weapons some armies can bring inevitably leads to lopsided games, because they either rampage around with nothing able to hurt them, or the opponent brought enough anti-tank and therefore they get blown up before accomplishing anything. See Imperial Knight armies in 7th. That and the super weird break points AV caused. AV12 dreads were terrible, because everyone and their mother could lob a krak grenade in their face in combat and kill them; But AV13 dreads were goddamn terrors because almost no infantry unit could hurt them in combat AT ALL. You were either packing a powerfist or the dread got to smack you until you failed morale and got swept.

 

And the Resilience stat from LoTR is never going to be introduced. It's moving in the exact opposite direction GW is taking 40k. And TBH, you can get plenty of variation in durability with just Wounds, Toughness, Armor Save, and unique rules like all is dust just fine.


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#55
NatBrannigan

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More likely to change the dice, D8's or some such, to give a wider spectrum to put units on. Not saying that's likely, just MORE likely than adding another rule to every unit.

 

Be just like GW to change to D9's which only they would sell to start off with. £2 per die!



#56
Marshal van Trapp

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What about a return to Hull Points of vehicles?

Anyway... back on topic, I've been getting a lot of good use out of 6 man grey hunter squads with 1 plasma and a WGPL with combi plasma. I run between 3-6 of them in my list with either 2 10man blood claws of a single maxed squad. The blood claws charge up the board giving my opponent something to shoot while the grey hunters can move up safely and take shots at value targets

#57
PeteySödes

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So this isnt the answer people want im sure, but one option is just taking a badass fun list. Post Adepticon, I'm working on my Logan-wing backed by dreads and sicarans. I wasn't going to win any tournies before anyways but it should be a flippin' great time playing the style i want.


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#58
Leif Bearclaw

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That and the super weird break points AV caused. AV12 dreads were terrible, because everyone and their mother could lob a krak grenade in their face in combat and kill them; But AV13 dreads were goddamn terrors because almost no infantry unit could hurt them in combat AT ALL. You were either packing a powerfist or the dread got to smack you until you failed morale and got swept.

 

That was more a quirk of hull points (completely garbage system) reducing any vehicle to 3/4 wounds, no save, rather than the AV system as a whole. Back when a glance had you rolling on a table, and you needed a 5 or 6 on that table (iirc) to do any real damage, Av12 wasn't all that worried by krak grenades (especially on walkers). No, it was the pitifully bad damage output of basic Dreads (very few attacks and only 1/2 standard heavy weapons) for their cost that made them garbage, AV13 Dreads also had better damage output than their basic cousins. Having some units immune to certain weapons was not a bad thing (Imperial Knights as a stand alone army was, imo, but that's a different issue).

 

What about a return to Hull Points of vehicles?
 

Please no. Hull points (as implemented, with no saves, glancing hits stripping hp, and shockingly small hp pools) was the worst rule ever introduced to 40k. Besides we pretty much still have them. GW just admitted they were wounds and called them such.

 

 

So this isnt the answer people want im sure, but one option is just taking a badass fun list. Post Adepticon, I'm working on my Logan-wing backed by dreads and sicarans. I wasn't going to win any tournies before anyways but it should be a flippin' great time playing the style i want.

Thing is with that mindset. When does always losing with a cool army concept stop being fun? I ran a Loganwing army for a time in 5th, and even though I didn't lose every game the volume of 'do nothing but remove my models to massed plasma fire' type games put me off it pretty sharpish.



#59
PeteySödes

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So this isnt the answer people want im sure, but one option is just taking a badass fun list. Post Adepticon, I'm working on my Logan-wing backed by dreads and sicarans. I wasn't going to win any tournies before anyways but it should be a flippin' great time playing the style i want.

Thing is with that mindset. When does always losing with a cool army concept stop being fun? I ran a Loganwing army for a time in 5th, and even though I didn't lose every game the volume of 'do nothing but remove my models to massed plasma fire' type games put me off it pretty sharpish.

 

 

Depends I guess, I was merely pointing it out to hopefully inspire or encourage people to go against the grain. I spend so much time on my models that if im proud of what i put down and I'm playing what i want i can have a good time. One of my last games I played against 7 ynarri flyers and got seized on, I was never going to win that regardless of list so the pressure is off. 

 

I'm super competitive and I consider myself a good player but we can either get through this slump somehow or we can get frustrated and quit. I don't quit.


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#60
Loshkins

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So this isnt the answer people want im sure, but one option is just taking a badass fun list. Post Adepticon, I'm working on my Logan-wing backed by dreads and sicarans. I wasn't going to win any tournies before anyways but it should be a flippin' great time playing the style i want.

Thing is with that mindset. When does always losing with a cool army concept stop being fun? I ran a Loganwing army for a time in 5th, and even though I didn't lose every game the volume of 'do nothing but remove my models to massed plasma fire' type games put me off it pretty sharpish.

 

 

Depends I guess, I was merely pointing it out to hopefully inspire or encourage people to go against the grain. I spend so much time on my models that if im proud of what i put down and I'm playing what i want i can have a good time. One of my last games I played against 7 ynarri flyers and got seized on, I was never going to win that regardless of list so the pressure is off. 

 

I'm super competitive and I consider myself a good player but we can either get through this slump somehow or we can get frustrated and quit. I don't quit.

 

Have you tried a triple sicaran list with some WG bikers or something like that to bubble wrap them? Been theory crafting a list like that, might actually be pretty interesting. Especially with the new infils to zone out ds. 


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#61
PeteySödes

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No not yet but that sounds metal as hell haha. I don’t have any bikes atm actually though. Making those old models into something I’d like was always kind of daunting to me. Ive got a sicaran battle tank that I can also run as an assault tank and I’ve got the venator as well though. I plan to run a double list ASAP.

#62
Triszin

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Curious to see if anyone has tried any of the new vangaurd as wolves

banana


#63
TiguriusX

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Curious to see if anyone has tried any of the new vangaurd as wolves


have used the phobos lord and new warlord trait in a game v GSC. I liked it

next match i will have eliminators as well

A digital space wolf returning to the pack and emerging from the warp on the TT to try the hobby side

 

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#64
Loshkins

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Curious to see if anyone has tried any of the new vangaurd as wolves

Eliminators are fantastic just by themselves, and become even better as tax for Leviathans. 



#65
Triszin

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Curious to see if anyone has tried any of the new vangaurd as wolves

Eliminators are fantastic just by themselves, and become even better as tax for Leviathans.

Are they good anti mortar gaurd units?

banana


#66
NatBrannigan

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Mine have done the square root of F-all in 2 game so far, but maybe that's just bad luck with the dice. they're cheap and hard to kill mind you.

 

The Infiltrators are good. Not killing too much but once (if) they drop down in points a bit they'll be a quality troops choice. Shame they can't take a power weapon or something on the Pack Leader but that might come about when they appear in a codex.



#67
Loshkins

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Curious to see if anyone has tried any of the new vangaurd as wolves

Eliminators are fantastic just by themselves, and become even better as tax for Leviathans.

Are they good anti mortar gaurd units?

 

Yep, if you can get them in range and for taking out those small infantry units, and zoning out. Their key is all about positioning, plop them down and don't move them the rest of the game. They'll then not allow DS on your flanks, and will whittle away those little squads and the sergeants and random crap like that throughout the game. Forces your opponent on the defensive as soon as some of his little buffers starts taking a few wounds. They're a stationary harassment unit. 



#68
zero88

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What's your favorite units/loadouts to put "on the hunt"? Aggressors look to be the top dogs (on paper), but a 10 man Intercessor squad I think could be solid as well.. you can easily get them within double tap range, if they get stuck in combat true grit can be surprising with 20 AP-1 shots, and 20 wounds to chew through is going to be tough.

#69
lonewolf81

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Wulfen next to aggressors comming from the hunt with rerolls charges for both units

Edited by lonewolf81, 15 April 2019 - 12:31 PM.

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#70
Karack Blackstone

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Hm.

 

After continuing to read up on this thread, perhaps rather than asking what's working, why not go with a slightly different approach?

What can we, as players, make work in a way that provides enough synergy to justify the points invested?

 

Wulfen supporting Aggressors.

Intercessors supporting Long Fangs with Light Fire Support.

Wulfen Dreadnought with (?)

 

Basically, what works for you, and how? If able to figure out the why, maybe we can as a subforum hammer out some lists that might shift the meta slightly more in our favor?



#71
CaptainStabby

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So this isnt the answer people want im sure, but one option is just taking a badass fun list. Post Adepticon, I'm working on my Logan-wing backed by dreads and sicarans. I wasn't going to win any tournies before anyways but it should be a flippin' great time playing the style i want.

 

That's kinda my mentality at this point. Im not a competitive player at all really, I mean Im not gonna take goofy stuff for the sake of it but I want to run what I want to run. I dont play 40k for mathammer. Im going to Vegas for the Wasteland Weekend GT and I FULLY expect to get smashed a good portion of the time with the list Im taking, as I refuse to take allied Guard, so Im building dudemens that Im going to enjoy pushing around the table.

So, this thread has been good to see what's working for the people that are actually competitive and what isn't. I'll have to post my list at some point and let you competitive folks poke holes in it. :D



#72
Bulwyf

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Hm.

 

After continuing to read up on this thread, perhaps rather than asking what's working, why not go with a slightly different approach?

What can we, as players, make work in a way that provides enough synergy to justify the points invested?

 

Wulfen supporting Aggressors.

Intercessors supporting Long Fangs with Light Fire Support.

Wulfen Dreadnought with (?)

 

Basically, what works for you, and how? If able to figure out the why, maybe we can as a subforum hammer out some lists that might shift the meta slightly more in our favor?

 

My two stormwolf packed with wulfen and support list is doing work for me. I also have a logan death star with dreds list that is killing it on the table so far. I'll post either list if people want.


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#73
Bulwyf

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Here's my dred list. Njal and Logan stay together with the dreds while the other RP and WP travel with the Wulfen in a stormwolf. 3 intercessor squads merrily camp on objectives. Once this list hits high value targets the game can quickly go south for your opponent. It also pretty nifty to get to use Logan in a list as his ability to let you reroll all misses in shooting and fighting means you can actually move your dreds and not suffer as much a penalty for it.

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Wolves) [31 PL, 563pts] ++

+ HQ +

Logan Grimnar [9 PL, 170pts]: Warlord

Njal Stormcaller [7 PL, 138pts]: 2. Tempest's Wrath, 3. Murderous Hurricane, 5. Storm Caller

+ Troops +

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle
. 4x Intercessor
. Intercessor Pack Leader: Chainsword

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle
. 4x Intercessor
. Intercessor Pack Leader: Chainsword

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle
. 4x Intercessor
. Intercessor Pack Leader: Chainsword

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Wolves) [34 PL, 570pts] ++

+ HQ +

Rune Priest [6 PL, 98pts]: 1. Living Lightning, 4. Fury of the Wolf Spirits, Bolt pistol, Runic staff

+ Elites +

Murderfang [9 PL, 170pts]

Redemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 155pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 147pts]
. Fenrisian Great Axe and Blizzard Shield: Blizzard shield, Fenrisian great axe, Storm bolter

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Wolves) [52 PL, 866pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Space Wolves

+ HQ +

Wolf Priest [5 PL, 75pts]: Bolt pistol, The Armour of Russ

+ Elites +

Dreadnought [7 PL, 120pts]: Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

Relic Contemptor Dreadnought [13 PL, 165pts]: Kheres assault cannon, Twin autocannon

Wulfen [11 PL, 227pts]
. 4x Thunder hammer & Stormshield: 4x Storm Shield, 4x Thunder Hammer
. 4x Wulfen
. Wulfen Pack Leader: Frost claws

+ Flyer +

Stormwolf [16 PL, 279pts]: Twin helfrost cannon
. Two Lascannons: 2x Lascannon
. Two Twin Heavy Bolters: 2x Twin heavy bolter

++ Total: [117 PL, 1999pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe


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#74
lonewolf81

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Things that work for me so far:

Wolf Lord with jump pack (th/ss, armour of russ, saga of wokfkin)

Wg battle leader with jump pack (th/ss, wulfenstone)

***They both hit hard they are tough thnx to 3+ inv and buff both hits and wounds for shooting and melee

Storm fang gunship with lascannons and twin heavy bolters

***Its expensive but You basically get the firepower of 2 longfang squads with -1 to hit, T7, and more wounds which degrades instead of loosing weapons with each wound gone. It can keep up with the jump Hq buffs and can still carry 5 troops upfield

Th/ss Wulfen on the hunt
***They are also expensive but they hit hard and with reroll charges they have better chance at getting that 9'' charge

Aggressors on the hunt close to wulfen and within reroll bubble of Hqs if possible

Hellblasters on the hunt within reroll bubble of hqs

Dreadnought with twin las/ missile launcher
*is cheap anti tank with T7 which doesn't degrade

Razorback with twin assault cannon/ storm bolter.

5 man greyhunters with one powerfist on pack leader in razorback or stormfang

5 man intercessors with bolt rifles and grenade launcher for backfield objective camping

Dakka redemptor with dual gatling cannons and storm bolters

PS: Almost everything in the marine arsenal is overcosted including new primaries stuff but it is what it is...

Edited by lonewolf81, 17 April 2019 - 11:57 AM.

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#75
Yoyo ninja

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I'm very much enjoying the new Phobos Rune Priest with the Master of the Vanguard warlord trait and the temporal corridor power (plus the extra one to taste). The master of the vanguard trait gives any friendly chapter units within 6" a +1 to move, advance and charge roles. The temporal corridor power give him a second move in the psykic phase, allowing him to keep up with the Wulfen.
I regularly get off turn 2 charge with Wulfen without having to pay for a transport (unless you want the extra 3" disembark move) or CP to put them on the hunt. It's a nice little combo.
I also put the armour of russ on the rune priest, for the nice little fight last bonus.
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