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Returning Emperor's Children advice?


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#1
Blood Priest

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I haven't played in a few years, and sold my old army, but with all this Chaos goodness would like to start up my Emperor's Children army again. I've never played 8th edition so I'm new to some of the concepts like stratagems, but I do understand the basics of them.

I understand that EC can still take Noise Marines as a troops choice. Is there a common recommended way to run them? My instinct is to take squads with sonic weapons on everything, though I'm not sure what numbers work well in each squad with the new morale mechanic. Would you ever take squads geared for close combat or leave that to a different unit?

Do you consider normal Chaos Marines or cultists useful? Or perhaps an alternative to close combat Noise Marines since they are cheaper and still strike first? Cultists seem useful as cheap cannon fodder, though I understand they can't get the Legion trait with the update coming. Do Slaanesh daemons synergise well with the army?

I've heard there's a Sonic Hellbrute. Are the rules for this in one of the Imperial Armor books?

Finally, while I want to use Emperor's Children rules and take Slaanesh everything, I also want my army to be part of the Black Legion. If I paint them like Black Legion but make it clear it's an Emperor's Children army is that enough, or should I add Slaanesh symbols or something to everything? Also, is it known if the Noise Marine upgrade kits on the GW website are compatible with the new Chaos Marine models coming out?

All advice appreciated, especially for pertinent things I didn't think of :)



#2
Gederas

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I haven't played in a few years, and sold my old army, but with all this Chaos goodness would like to start up my Emperor's Children army again. I've never played 8th edition so I'm new to some of the concepts like stratagems, but I do understand the basics of them.

I understand that EC can still take Noise Marines as a troops choice. Is there a common recommended way to run them? My instinct is to take squads with sonic weapons on everything, though I'm not sure what numbers work well in each squad with the new morale mechanic. Would you ever take squads geared for close combat or leave that to a different unit?

Do you consider normal Chaos Marines or cultists useful? Or perhaps an alternative to close combat Noise Marines since they are cheaper and still strike first? Cultists seem useful as cheap cannon fodder, though I understand they can't get the Legion trait with the update coming. Do Slaanesh daemons synergise well with the army?

I've heard there's a Sonic Hellbrute. Are the rules for this in one of the Imperial Armor books?

Finally, while I want to use Emperor's Children rules and take Slaanesh everything, I also want my army to be part of the Black Legion. If I paint them like Black Legion but make it clear it's an Emperor's Children army is that enough, or should I add Slaanesh symbols or something to everything? Also, is it known if the Noise Marine upgrade kits on the GW website are compatible with the new Chaos Marine models coming out?

All advice appreciated, especially for pertinent things I didn't think of smile.png

 

1: Most people recommend all sonic weapons on the squad. One Blastmaster and a Doom Siren on the Champion.

2: Never used Normal Marines when I was doing EC. Cultists are definitely useful though.

3: They never reprinted it's rules. This was from the Imperial Armour: Forces of Chaos FAQ:
Q: There is no datasheet for an Emperor’s Children Sonic Dreadnought – is there a datasheet I should use for this model?

A: Use the Helbrute datasheet on page 33 of Index: Chaos (use Codex now). It must replace its <Mark of Chaos> keyword with Slaanesh, it must replace its <Legion> keyword with Emperor’s Children, and it has two additional wargear options; it may take a doom siren, and it may replace its multi-melta with two blastmasters.

4: Children of Torment are the Emperor's Children/Noise Marines/Slaaneshi Black Legion dudes:
ChildrenOfTormentWarrior.jpg

 

Re the Noise Marine Upgrade:
From GW themselves on Warhammer Community Article about the Emperor's Children for the new release:
"Additionally, if you’re looking to add some more Noise Marines to your Emperor’s Children army, the original upgrade kit is 100% compatible with the new Chaos Space Marine plastics."


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#3
PipX

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With the new basic CSM models coming out I plan on making Chosen close combat and special weapon squads/combi weapon squads, and hoping for a dedicated Noise Marine kit down the road. Or making some of my own if there is nothing in 3 months or so.

 

My main thing is cultists. Can't get a good amount at an affordable price per point.


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#4
Blood Priest

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Wow, thank you :) Does that mean that all I need to field Sonic Dreadnoughts is that FAQ and the Codex (waiting for the updated one to release)?



#5
Gederas

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Wow, thank you smile.png Does that mean that all I need to field Sonic Dreadnoughts is that FAQ and the Codex (waiting for the updated one to release)?

Pretty much. You don't even need the FAQ because anyone can access it. So all you need is the Codex really.


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#6
Blood Priest

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Wow, thank you smile.png Does that mean that all I need to field Sonic Dreadnoughts is that FAQ and the Codex (waiting for the updated one to release)?

Pretty much. You don't even need the FAQ because anyone can access it. So all you need is the Codex really.

 

Thank you, Gederas. The way it's worded, does it mean I can put a Doom Siren on the Hellbrute in addition to both arm weapons?



#7
Gederas

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Wow, thank you smile.png Does that mean that all I need to field Sonic Dreadnoughts is that FAQ and the Codex (waiting for the updated one to release)?

Pretty much. You don't even need the FAQ because anyone can access it. So all you need is the Codex really.

Thank you, Gederas. The way it's worded, does it mean I can put a Doom Siren on the Hellbrute in addition to both arm weapons?

Yup. That's what I did with mine:
bbAjFDQ.jpg


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#8
Blood Priest

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Nice! Thank you again. Do you just use the point cost of the Doom Siren from a Noise Marine squad?



#9
Gederas

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Nice! Thank you again. Do you just use the point cost of the Doom Siren from a Noise Marine squad?

Yup.

 

It's the price of two Blastmasters (because it's got two) and the Doom Siren from the codex


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#10
Blood Priest

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Thanks again, that's really cool :)



#11
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I just wish there was an option for the Contemptors and larger Dreadnought chassis' to use sonic weapons. Would love to make a boombox Deredeo.


gallery_11038_675_363.png

 


#12
RolandTHTG

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I haven't played in a few years, and sold my old army, but with all this Chaos goodness would like to start up my Emperor's Children army again. I've never played 8th edition so I'm new to some of the concepts like stratagems, but I do understand the basics of them.

I understand that EC can still take Noise Marines as a troops choice. Is there a common recommended way to run them? My instinct is to take squads with sonic weapons on everything, though I'm not sure what numbers work well in each squad with the new morale mechanic. Would you ever take squads geared for close combat or leave that to a different unit?

Do you consider normal Chaos Marines or cultists useful? Or perhaps an alternative to close combat Noise Marines since they are cheaper and still strike first? Cultists seem useful as cheap cannon fodder, though I understand they can't get the Legion trait with the update coming. Do Slaanesh daemons synergise well with the army?

I've heard there's a Sonic Hellbrute. Are the rules for this in one of the Imperial Armor books?

Finally, while I want to use Emperor's Children rules and take Slaanesh everything, I also want my army to be part of the Black Legion. If I paint them like Black Legion but make it clear it's an Emperor's Children army is that enough, or should I add Slaanesh symbols or something to everything? Also, is it known if the Noise Marine upgrade kits on the GW website are compatible with the new Chaos Marine models coming out?

All advice appreciated, especially for pertinent things I didn't think of smile.png

 

For a shooty squad, all sonic blasters is good. Due to the wording, you can actually even take one on the champ. I also always give the champ a chainsword, as it's a free extra attack. I usually run only 5-6 in a squad.

Blastmasters are good, but to keep points down you don't need them in every squad. IF you do run a 10 man squad I definitely recommend them, as you can get 2 in a 10 man squad. 

 

For EC, regular marines are really only useful if you want a single heavy weapon squad, or a twin melta/plasma.

If you are going close combat, not that either is that good in tournament, but noise marines get an extra attack base, plus can use the Music of the Apocalypse rule when it dies for additional attacks. They can be fun to play with in casual games, using a rhino to get forward, as it's the most likely way to get to be able to use a doom siren. 

 

I'd have a printout of the Forgeworld FAQ if you want to run a sonic dread, just to show your opponent. 

 

For running an EC-loyal-to-black-legion, I'd use a variation fo the Children of Torment scheme Gederas posted, or some other way of mixing vibrant colors into the black legion scheme and plenty of slaanesh symbols if you can do them easily. 

 

Finally, I know GW says the kit is compatible. But I'll tell you right now that the current finecast kit looks slightly small and ill-fitting with the old plastics, so I can't imagine it will look good with the new ones. 

If you've got the funds, the FW Horus Heresy Kakophoni (proto-noise marines) look great. https://www.forgewor...egion-Kakophoni I actually got a set, put the arms on regular marines and used the bodies as the base for a chosen squad. 

There are also several third-party sellers that have guns similar in style to the kakophoni guns that fin normal (old) bolter arms, and should fit the new plastics. 


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The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!
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#13
Dr_Ruminahui

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Taking sonic blasters in squads is a bit less of an auto-include given the new Beta bolter drill rule.  Basically, under that rule, marines (including heretic astartes) with bolters get 2 shots at full range if they don't move.

 

Given that you only get 1 extra shot from a sonic blaster that has the same Strength and AP as a bolter (though it does ignore cover) for 6 points, it is worth considering not taking sonic blasters if:

   a ) the match is using the beta rule;and

   b )  the table doesn't have a lot of area or other cover that might give the enemy a bonus to their save; and

   c )  you don't plan on running and shooting much (sonic blasters are assault);

   d )  the squad is just going to camp an objective all game and you don't expect to move much; or

   e )  you expect most of the squads shooting being within 24";

then saving those extra points may be worth it.

 

Personally, I think blastmasters are always a good addition to a shooty squad, unless you have a lot of heavy weapons elsewhere in your army.

 

The one loadout that I wouldn't recommend is melee - noise marines, kitted out for melee, can basically be considered 1" range sonic blasters - same number of attacks, same Strength and same AP, just in the fight phase rather than shooting - though you might also get in a pistol shot.  Given that this also downgrades their range and their potency for their last attack when they die (you get to attack with one weapon, which would be 1 pistol shot (or D6 grenade) or 3 sonic blaster shots).  Given that shooty outclasses melee this edition, except for truly exceptional melee troops like berzerkers, I would only ever field a melee noise marine squad if you just really like the models or some other non-game reason, and even then realise that your tabletop potency is taking a hit.

 

Incidentally, I'm also an emperor's children player - check out the last link in my signature if you want to check my army for potential inspiration or ideas.


Edited by Dr_Ruminahui, 26 March 2019 - 03:40 PM.

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#14
Panzer

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I definitely consider Sonic Blaster worth it over regular Bolter considering that it allows you to move and shoot without losing anything and they are your Troops, means they are there to score objectives. I agree though that melee is not worth it. Take Chosen or Possessed for that.

 

Honestly, there are only two reasons to play Emperor's Children (aside of fluff) and that's Noise Marine Troops and the Sonic Helbrute. The Legion Trait is bad, the Legion Stratagem is okay-ish and the Legion Warlord Trait is okay-ish as well though you usually don't want your Warlord to lose wounds since you can easily protect him with the character keyword. Both, Alpha Legion and Black Legion can do Slaanesh better if not for the two units named above and the Flawless Host looks pretty interesting as well with the murder prince but lacks access to VotLW.


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#15
RolandTHTG

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Honestly, I like the rumored flawless host stuff enough that if they could take noise marine troops I'd switch over. 

As it is, it looks like I'm going to have to figure out how to represent that "this battalion is EC, the vanguard is FH".


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#16
Panzer

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Honestly, I like the rumored flawless host stuff enough that if they could take noise marine troops I'd switch over. 

As it is, it looks like I'm going to have to figure out how to represent that "this battalion is EC, the vanguard is FH".

Paint scheme and legion/warband emblems on pauldrons obviously help. ;)

 

Dunno about FH being so much better though. You can build a mean Daemon Prince as Warlord and the legion trait helps melee units a lot more than the EC legion trait, but not having access to VotLW hurts a lot. Would be awesome if vehicle had access to Legion traits as it would make Maulerfiends and the Lord Discordant quite a bit stronger though.


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#17
Tordeck

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Finally, I know GW says the kit is compatible. But I'll tell you right now that the current finecast kit looks slightly small and ill-fitting with the old plastics, so I can't imagine it will look good with the new ones.


55696254_2337701599833511_44326120213551

Here are min from Shadowspear. Don't mind the blutac or my conversion work lol.
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#18
Maschinenpriester

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The kits seems to fit together okish =D
Did not expect that.

#19
RolandTHTG

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I stand by my statement. 

Especially with the new shoulder pads, the old arms look very lopsided. Admittedly, that's not a deal breaker for slaanesh, but still not something I want in my force. 

I do think that the blastmaster looks good, especially with the spirit hosts swirling around it.  


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#20
Blood Priest

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I definitely consider Sonic Blaster worth it over regular Bolter considering that it allows you to move and shoot without losing anything and they are your Troops, means they are there to score objectives. I agree though that melee is not worth it. Take Chosen or Possessed for that.

 

Honestly, there are only two reasons to play Emperor's Children (aside of fluff) and that's Noise Marine Troops and the Sonic Helbrute. The Legion Trait is bad, the Legion Stratagem is okay-ish and the Legion Warlord Trait is okay-ish as well though you usually don't want your Warlord to lose wounds since you can easily protect him with the character keyword. Both, Alpha Legion and Black Legion can do Slaanesh better if not for the two units named above and the Flawless Host looks pretty interesting as well with the murder prince but lacks access to VotLW.

Do you think their Legion Trait is bad because of the strength of shooting over melee in this edition? I initially saw it and thought is sounded incredible. I guess an all melee EC Hellbrute is probably a bad idea, then :P Is a Chosen melee squad a viable option with this trait or do you think the points are better elsewhere? Also I'm guessing Possessed are right out, I've read some threads and no one seems to care for them.

On Sonic Hellbrutes with Blastmasters do you think keeping a melee weapon on the left arm is worth it? The missile launcher seems like a good deal to me, especially if I'm keeping it still for Fire Frenzy.

Do you recommend any particular Warlord traits? I understand the Shadowspear traits can go on any psyker. I don't know how useful the Master of Possession is to EC but I hope to bring a sorcerer and/or demon prince along.

Also thank you everyone for the great input. I'm still adjusting to the edition so it's all been very helpful :)



#21
Panzer

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I definitely consider Sonic Blaster worth it over regular Bolter considering that it allows you to move and shoot without losing anything and they are your Troops, means they are there to score objectives. I agree though that melee is not worth it. Take Chosen or Possessed for that.

 

Honestly, there are only two reasons to play Emperor's Children (aside of fluff) and that's Noise Marine Troops and the Sonic Helbrute. The Legion Trait is bad, the Legion Stratagem is okay-ish and the Legion Warlord Trait is okay-ish as well though you usually don't want your Warlord to lose wounds since you can easily protect him with the character keyword. Both, Alpha Legion and Black Legion can do Slaanesh better if not for the two units named above and the Flawless Host looks pretty interesting as well with the murder prince but lacks access to VotLW.

Do you think their Legion Trait is bad because of the strength of shooting over melee in this edition? I initially saw it and thought is sounded incredible. I guess an all melee EC Hellbrute is probably a bad idea, then tongue.png Is a Chosen melee squad a viable option with this trait or do you think the points are better elsewhere? Also I'm guessing Possessed are right out, I've read some threads and no one seems to care for them.

On Sonic Hellbrutes with Blastmasters do you think keeping a melee weapon on the left arm is worth it? The missile launcher seems like a good deal to me, especially if I'm keeping it still for Fire Frenzy.

Do you recommend any particular Warlord traits? I understand the Shadowspear traits can go on any psyker. I don't know how useful the Master of Possession is to EC but I hope to bring a sorcerer and/or demon prince along.

Also thank you everyone for the great input. I'm still adjusting to the edition so it's all been very helpful smile.png

 

 

No I think it's bad because always fighting first while sounding nice just isn't that great with the current melee rules. ^^

 

If you charge you already strike first anyway.

If your opponent charges you, you both strike first, so nobody has priority but because it's his turn he picks the first unit to fight with.

 

It only comes in effect if your opponent charged with 2+ units or if there are multiple ongoing combats going on on the board which is rarely the case since melee is usually decided in one turn and if not you are probably fighting chaff, something super durable you can't properly deal with your unit (like a Rhino sitting in your Noise Marines etc) or the opponent falls back to shoot at you. ^^

 

----------

 

I'd always go for a Power scourge + Blastmaster + Doom Siren Helbrute if possible. Just an overall great loadout.

 

---------

 

Not really. Most Warlord traits for CSM are kinda meh. I'd actually think about taking a MoP and make him the Warlord to use one of the Shadowspear Warlord traits. Or look into the new specialised detachment Warlord traits and pick something you like (there are quite some good ones actually).


If you really want a Warlord trait from Codex: CSM then I'd go for one that increases your attacks and put it on a winged prince with talons and elixir for a bunch of S8 attacks.


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#22
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Thank you again, sfPanzer. I hadn't really thought of the way the trait plays out that way but I see what you mean now. Why do you like the Scourge/BM/DS combo so much?



#23
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Thank you again, sfPanzer. I hadn't really thought of the way the trait plays out that way but I see what you mean now. Why do you like the Scourge/BM/DS combo so much?

 

Well, no particular reason aside of it simply being good, really.

With the Power Scourge it has 7 S8 AP-2 D2 attacks hitting on 3+ which I vastly prefer over any of the other melee options and the Twin Blastmaster and Doom Siren should explain itself


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