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tactical terminators in 8th edition

8th tactical terminator

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#1
Mechanicus_Adept

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What is the best support character for a 10 man tactical terminator squad?

Is it apothecary or lieutenant or captain?

i want to run a 10 man squad using raven guard chapter tactic.

#2
PhilB

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Surely a Captain would be the way to go?

In my mind... Reroll 1s to hit for shooting and eventual melee > reroll 1s to would for shooting and eventual melee > bonus wounds/reviving models.

Not to mention the Captain would be the better beatstick of the three for the coming melee (I assume you're going put them right in the enemy's grill?)

 

If you're dead set on tactical terminators, why not look at Deathwatch (special issue ammo) or Deathwing (deathwing assault Strat).

Add a Watch Master or Belial for extra mileage.


Edited by PhilB, 27 March 2019 - 04:11 AM.

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#3
Panzer

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Depends on the available psychic powers but from what you listed it's definitely the Captain. Mostly because the Captain himself is already very strong though. Re-rolling 1s to hit is great but that alone I wouldn't necessarily value over being able to heal/revive Terminators.

So for me: Captain > Apothecary > Lieutenant


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#4
ShinyRhino

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Assuming you're firing just 10 Stormbolters at an MEQ target, both the Captain reroll and the Lieutenant reroll produce about the same 5 unsaved wounds.
Once you start facing different Toughness values, the Lieutenant pulls a little more weight, as you'll theoretically be rerolling more dice for more successes, or rerolling the few dice you failed for marginally more successes.
It then slides around based on save values.

Personally, I prefer the Lieutenant to create more volume in more situations, while the Captain reroll will always produce the same result in every situation.
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#5
Captain Idaho

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Captains are quite handy as they also give decent close combat power alongside them. Not to mention combi weapons.
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#6
Panzer

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Assuming you're firing just 10 Stormbolters at an MEQ target, both the Captain reroll and the Lieutenant reroll produce about the same 5 unsaved wounds.
Once you start facing different Toughness values, the Lieutenant pulls a little more weight, as you'll theoretically be rerolling more dice for more successes, or rerolling the few dice you failed for marginally more successes.
It then slides around based on save values.

Personally, I prefer the Lieutenant to create more volume in more situations, while the Captain reroll will always produce the same result in every situation.

 

That's not true. The Lieutenant only allows 1s to be re-rolled as well so the average amount of wounds produced doesn't change with changing toughness values of the target.

 

Amount of wounds from 10 Bolter rounds vs T2:

Captain = 6.481

Lieutenant = 6.481

 

Amount of wounds from 10 Bolter rounds vs T3:

Captain = 5.185

Lieutenant = 5.185

 

Amount of wounds from 10 Bolter rounds vs T4:

Captain = 3.888

Lieutenant = 3.888

 

Amount of wounds from 10 Bolter rounds vs T5:

Captain = 2.592

Lieutenant = 2.592

 

Amount of wounds from 10 Bolter rounds vs T8+:

Captain = 1.296

Lieutenant = 1.296


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#7
ShinyRhino

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I was basing it on the abstraction that more failures meant more ones to reroll. I probably messed up the math.
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#8
chapter master 454

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If we were talking raw re-rolls then yes, we would likely see difference in the mathhammer however in this regard the values are fixed. Remember that all 40k is played with various Factors put between you and that sweet sweet model kill. Normal procedure is actually a 3 Factor process however if you were to go to extremes some variables can actually reach some silly levels with the highest I believe being a 6 Factor process (Random Shots roll(s), To Hit roll(s), To Wound roll(s), Saving roll(s), Damage roll(s), Feel No Pain roll(s)) and all of these naturally reduce the first value generated (which is number of attacks). This is one of the reasons random shot weapons actually aren't so popular in use as it is actually another factor that doesn't help, it adds to a weapons journey to wounding.

 

So just to throw something out there so everyone knows and for those who might not remember: it doesn't matter in what other you multiple or divide as you will end up with the same result. In this case, think of the Captain and Lieutenant as just another multiplier we do within the sum on our path to getting that sweet sweet model kill. Oh and quick question and small nit-pick Panzer, I got 3.9195 wounds against T4 with 10 bolt shots yet you got 3.888, the fact you have 3 decimals means you ether round to 3 points (I normally go to 2) or we might of done something slightly different (small detail that doesn't matter. I did the same thing and I got 3.9195 wounds regardless of whether I used a captain or lieutenant).

 

So now the only question left since now we know BOTH units are equal at buffing the terminator squad is which is better for them on the table. In general, the captain is superior naturally due to being a better shot, more attacks, more wounds and in general a better unit with the same wargear options as the lieutenant (bar some relics) however the cost is a difference of 14 points extra for the captain so if you are tight on points, bring along the lieutenant but if you can get a captain get him instead.

 

Apothecaries are hilariously weak and should only be considered for gimmick builds with smash captains and even then are just horribly pathetic. Their only real use would MAYBE be with centurions and even then, it is a pale imitation of what necrons do with destroyers (and they do it better) as since they only get up with 1 wound left you better hope the unit revived is a pretty boss dude (hence why I say centurions, waking up a 100 point dude with 2 lascannons and a hurricane boltgun is like the apothecary waking up a light battle tank to fire again!).

In fact, instead of Apothecaries take an ancient instead if going for that angle, now when the opponent attempts to wipe the squad, half the squad fires back before dying which by all accounts is just like if the apothecary revives them but instead of only 1 dude getting back up 5 of them did and got to work straight away. Not to mention the max an apothecary can revive in a game is 5-7 dudes and at a 50% success rate so only about 2-4 dudes will get picked up and if your opponent for some reason doesn't think those terminators aren't worth shooting...well you must be facing a knight player who doesn't care for boltgun fire!


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#9
Panzer

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Oh and quick question and small nit-pick Panzer, I got 3.9195 wounds against T4 with 10 bolt shots yet you got 3.888, the fact you have 3 decimals means you ether round to 3 points (I normally go to 2) or we might of done something slightly different (small detail that doesn't matter. I did the same thing and I got 3.9195 wounds regardless of whether I used a captain or lieutenant).

 

Probably some rounding error in one of your earlier steps (maybe at calculating the percentages). I only round the very last result (to be fair it should've been 3.889 anyway ^^).


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