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Apocalypse - Epic at 40K Scale?


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#1
Lexington

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Not what anyone was expecting for an Epic return, but from what’s being said on the WHC, that seems to be what we are getting with the new Apocalypse game...

Get ready to battle bigger, better. The new Apocalypse is a ground-up reimagining of mass battles in the 41st Millennium – a totally new ruleset designed to capture the spectacular carnage, grand strategy and high drama of Warhammer 40,000’s biggest battles. With this system, you’ll be able to fight in the kinds of conflicts once confined to art and lore, brought to life on your tabletop, all in an evening after work or school.

This is a totally new game, on a new scale, giving you a new way to use your existing collection. At this size of battle, the focus is not on the actions of units, but on entire formations, with the game feeling tight and reactive even with hundreds of models on each side.

And yes, those *are* Warhammer 40,000 movement trays!

We’ll have more details on how you can get involved soon!


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#2
Shinespider

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Sounds like they're going much further than in the previous iteration of Apocalypse. It'll be interesting to see where they land. 


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#3
FlamingDeth

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Honestly with all the points reductions, higher points games, flyers, and superheavies, 8th has basically been apocalypse the entire time.
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#4
Volt

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It seems completely unnecessary and redundant as 7th and 8th were both apocalypse editions rolled into it. Plus Epic functions is a 10mm game. As a 28mm game not only is it going to be so horrendously expensive that only a very small number of people are going to be able to afford it (several hundred dollar titans?!), but it's going to be a pain to cram onto a table and have anything but just a moshpit. Maybe two tables combined?


Edited by Volt, 29 March 2019 - 12:38 AM.

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#5
Cpt_Reaper

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I'm looking forward to seeing how the rules function. I've been a fan of Apocalypse since it first came out (still have, and use, the limited edition backpack).



#6
Master Commander Ajax

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Previous editions of Apocalypse have been accompanied by new, massive, plastic models...

Fingers crossed?
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They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall I clad them and with the mightiest guns will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and machines so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear.


#7
Panzer

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I'm not overly interested but I'll keep my eye on it. I agree that 7th and 8th already are treating on apocalypse territory a lot so I don't really feel the need for a separate apocalypse system.

Now if they'd reduce the LoW and flyers we see in regular 40k in return that would be great (note: I don't want them to be completely removed) but that's extremely unlikely since taking stuff away always results in negative emotions which GW definitely doesn't want and we have things like Imperial Knights as its own faction in 40k already.


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#8
Master Sheol

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Apocalypse is cool... But i don't have time to play apocalypse games so i have to pass...

Really only this for 40k at Adepticon (ok demons of Slaanesh top but basically it's a AoS book that can be used in 40k too) is really sad...
“Battles are won by courage, by standing firm in the face of overwhelming adversity, by advancing into certain death when every instinct is screaming at you to turn.”

#9
Panzer

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Apocalypse is cool... But i don't have time to play apocalypse games so i have to pass...

Really only this for 40k at Adepticon (ok demons of Slaanesh top but basically it's a AoS book that can be used in 40k too) is really sad...

 

They talked about time in the article. It's supposed to be played in the same time as a regular 40k game now.


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#10
RikuEru

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It seems completely unnecessary and redundant as 7th and 8th were both apocalypse editions rolled into it. Plus Epic functions as a 10mm game. As a 28mm game not only is it going to be so horrendously expensive that only a very small number of people are going to be able to afford it (several hundred dollar titans?!), but it's going to be a pain to cram onto a table and have anything but just a moshpit. Maybe two tables combined?

Two words: Team Games.

Really, even a group (4+ people) of beginners can probably muster 5000 vs 5000 points, after their first year in the hobby.
And Apocalypse has always been more fun, playing in small teams. To be perfectly honest I don't know of one occasion where I or people I know played a larger apocalypse game 1vs1 - even if they HAD big enough armies with Titans.

Not everything is a GW Cashgrab and this (just like the old Apocalypse Book) does NOT force people to buy Lords of War.

Xes, you probably need more Tables. But they can be positioned in a way to make interesting "maps" by themselves. For example 3 Tables going:
___
|
___

That way you have something like a massive bridge in the middle.

Also if you mix up deployment zones a little (for example: Each Team gets two Corners, diagonally opposite) you won't get a moshpit situation.
Add to that Drop Pods, Teleportation, Flanking, Scouts, the Genestealer Blips...

If you then get some scenic moments... you are in for a treat!
A swarm of grots bravely occupying the Emperor's Finest Terminators for 3-4 rounds, while a decimated guardsman Squad hold the Center objective against all odds (and dozens of dice) and a Droppodded Runepriest and his Bodyguards felling an enemy Warhound Titan in merely a second (The Runepriest Brotherhood's Lighting Storm was a vicious power...), only to die immediately afterwards, being shot from all sides.

...it's really not as bad or dull as you might think.
It's the tactical chaos of a true 40k battlefield.
Please consider giving it a try with some of your friends, maybe with some cold drinks, handy snacks and good laughs.

Edited by RikuEru, 28 March 2019 - 06:02 AM.

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#11
MARK0SIAN

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Apocalypse is cool... But i don't have time to play apocalypse games so i have to pass...

Really only this for 40k at Adepticon (ok demons of Slaanesh top but basically it's a AoS book that can be used in 40k too) is really sad...


I’m thinking that they’ll try and reduce the time by using the formations they mentioned to have lots of units acting at the same time.

As for the poor 40k showing, it was like that at Warhammer fest last year too. I think we just have to accept that AoS is now the main priority/favourite for the main GW studio and will monopolise most big events in the future.
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#12
Volt

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It seems completely unnecessary and redundant as 7th and 8th were both apocalypse editions rolled into it. Plus Epic functions as a 10mm game. As a 28mm game not only is it going to be so horrendously expensive that only a very small number of people are going to be able to afford it (several hundred dollar titans?!), but it's going to be a pain to cram onto a table and have anything but just a moshpit. Maybe two tables combined?


If you then get some scenic moments... you are in for a treat!
A swarm of grots bravely occupying the Emperor's Finest Terminators for 3-4 rounds, while a decimated guardsman Squad hold the Center objective against all odds (and dozens of dice) and a Droppodded Runepriest and his Bodyguards felling an enemy Warhound Titan in merely a second (The Runepriest Brotherhood's Lighting Storm was a vicious power...), only to die immediately afterwards, being shot from all sides.

...it's really not as bad or dull as you might think.
It's the tactical chaos of a true 40k battlefield.
Please consider giving it a try with some of your friends, maybe with some cold drinks, handy snacks and good laughs.

 

Scenic moments are nice and all, but a good game they do not make. What makes a good game is being as close to mathematical balance as possible so selection of units does not actually matter as much as how those units are used. Organizing a game with numerous people is not only a bigger pain than just setting up a 1v1, but it's silly to jump through those ropes if you ultimately still get something which can be mostly decided by a spreadsheet and a calculator instead of a tactics and strategy. Apocalypse would only interest me if there's some actual tactical depth to it on par or superior to Warhammer Epic. Scenic moments don't matter at all to me, I care more about tactics in fair and balanced games than anything else.

 

 

 

Apocalypse is cool... But i don't have time to play apocalypse games so i have to pass...

Really only this for 40k at Adepticon (ok demons of Slaanesh top but basically it's a AoS book that can be used in 40k too) is really sad...


I’m thinking that they’ll try and reduce the time by using the formations they mentioned to have lots of units acting at the same time.

As for the poor 40k showing, it was like that at Warhammer fest last year too. I think we just have to accept that AoS is now the main priority/favourite for the main GW studio and will monopolise most big events in the future.

 

Hey, if they put enough work in AOS, it might actually turn into a balanced alternative. sweat.gif


Edited by Volt, 28 March 2019 - 07:02 AM.

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#13
Captain Smashy Pants

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This is cool and all, but its so far away from where my hobby is these days. I'm actually looking at getting into killteam because of the low model count. If I do end up doing anything apoc resulted, I'll probably only field baneblade variants and just team up doing with some mad man who's got a lot of infantry.
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I do find it hilarious that some people were saying the size of newer marine stuff looks great next to regular humans like Cadians, and then GW upsized the humans so they are the same height as marines again :lol: :lol: :lol:


#14
Rik Lightstar

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Apocalypse is cool... But i don't have time to play apocalypse games so i have to pass...

Really only this for 40k at Adepticon (ok demons of Slaanesh top but basically it's a AoS book that can be used in 40k too) is really sad...

I’m thinking that they’ll try and reduce the time by using the formations they mentioned to have lots of units acting at the same time.

As for the poor 40k showing, it was like that at Warhammer fest last year too. I think we just have to accept that AoS is now the main priority/favourite for the main GW studio and will monopolise most big events in the future.

Or, and hear me out here....

They've JUST had a big 40k release and Vigilus 2 isn't even on the shelves yet, so they weren't going to drop anything on the Wednesday/Thursday.

However, at the close of the event, a Columbo style "oh, and just one other thing (40k mic drop)" and close the event.

A single announcement slot at a single event does NOT make it AoS dominating.

Rik
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#15
Filkarion

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I really like this! 

I have my issues with current 40k basic dynamics (complete turn of one player, then the other vs something more like alternating activation common move fase, then the same with psi, shooting and so on) so I would be happy to try something new with the same miniatures and lore!

 

Let's see what they will come up with


ETL_2016_Medal_01_Custos_Fidei01.gifETL_2016_Medal_02_Primus_Inter_Pares.gifETL_2016_Badge_08_Badge_of_the_Hero.jpgETL_2018_Medal_01_Custos_Fidei_01.gifETL_VI_Badge_Forum_Champion_Xenos_Tyranigallery_48988_15465_18674.pnggallery_48988_15465_5172.pnggallery_48988_15808_16184.pngMy Sublime Sound Seekers Slaanesh army

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#16
toaae

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Don't ignore the mention of more Warzones coming. I don't know what was said exactly at the preview, but the Warhammer Community article seems to imply that we'll be getting multiple more books in the coming year. I'm now guessing, but I wouldn't be surprised to see books comparable to a single Vigilus book for each of these Warzones.

As for Apocalypse, I'm always excited. Big, dumb games have been some of the highlights of my 40k career, and anything to help facilitate that is greatly appreciated. Now, a big part of the original Apoc's draw was the huge bundle kits they sold, like three vindicators or 10 Leman Russes, on top of getting our first plastic Superheavies. But regardless, I'm already planning an Apoc game for the end of the summer, so if this drops before then, I'll be really happy.


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#17
Jolemai

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Movement trays won't get an Apocalypse sized game down to a single evening. Whilst I'm intrigued about this update, I'm also somewhat concerned that it'll be half-baked and become unsupported in a few months.
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#18
Aramis K

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Lots of D12 in the video, maybe not just wound counters.
Could be a system based on fewer rolls with wider range of outcomes based on weapon and unit classes.
Say 4 marines shoot 10 guardsmen, one D12, 6+ to kill and every point over is extra wound, -1 for casualty, -1 for cover. Roll 10, 3 dead guardsmen.

Edited by Aramis K, 28 March 2019 - 08:47 AM.

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#19
Pearson73

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I'm certainly interested in how they tackle the mechanics of this; we've already seen D12 and other dice in the trailer, plus the description mentions formations over units.

 

One to watch in terms of big models being released alongside, as mentioned above.



#20
Rik Lightstar

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Lots of D12 in the video, maybe not just wound counters.
Could be a system based on fewer rolls with wider range of outcomes based on weapon and unit classes.
Say 4 marines shoot 10 guardsmen, one D12, 6+ to kill and every point over is extra wound, -1 for casualty, -1 for cover. Roll 10, 3 dead guardsmen.

 

The description does indeed call out that it streamlines some of the rules.

 

I'm expecting to see a more closely tiered version of 40k over the next few years, where you'll have Kill-Teams, 40k and Apocalypse (0-500, 500-2000, 2001+ point brackets) all working from the same "Core Rules" and each Codex having the rules for all three types of play. They've already trialled this to an extent with Path to Glory rules in AoS Battletomes.

 

Rik


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#21
Panzer

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I'm expecting to see a more closely tiered version of 40k over the next few years, where you'll have Kill-Teams, 40k and Apocalypse (0-500, 500-2000, 2001+ point brackets) all working from the same "Core Rules" and each Codex having the rules for all three types of play. They've already trialled this to an extent with Path to Glory rules in AoS Battletomes.

 

Rik

 

 

I doubt that. The core rules of Kill Team already are very different to 40k with the different phases and everything.


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#22
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I hope this means we see formation bundles at reduced prices. If you try to build a company sized space marine army you’re looking at a thousand dollars easily over the 500ish it would cost in 2008.

Your opinion is important, and someone posting here probably does care what you think. You should go tell them. Remember that it really hurts to come up with an idea you care about and have no one else care. Go care about something and tell them what you think. Now. Think of what it would have meant to you when you were young.

 

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#23
Subtleknife

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I hope that they go for alternate activation for this.
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#24
Marshal Loss

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Not very excited about this at all, to be honest. Apocalypse has never really interested me much. It was always a one-off novelty at best.


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#25
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Pretty much irrelevant to me in gaming terms, but the movement trays might be nice if they are priced reasonably!


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