Our best bet

[newdigitalGK]

So assuming that the new FAQ doesn't address any of our issues I think the community survey is our next best bet! make sure you participate. We get enough voices something might actually change:

 

From the community site:

"

Last time we ran the Big Community Survey, loads of you asked for plastic Sisters of Battle – so this year, we’re giving you some! A selection of lucky fans who participate in this year’s Big Community Survey will win some fabulous prizes. 10 entrants will receive a squad of Battle Sisters, while one lucky winner will be receiving a whole Adepta Sororitas army – yes, the new ones! So, if having the chance to fundamentally shape the future of Warhammer forever isn’t enough, you might even get some free stuff while you’re at it. "

 

 

[Karack Blackstone]

Would you prefer this thread or a new one to be the GK's BCS dump site for how you as players might address getting this issue brought to the forefront?

 

Basically, the Big Community Survey is the GK's chance to get their issues hashed out. How might this be done?

 

I'd figure this thread would work to ask the questions; if so, please, by all means, have at! I won't make a new thread for something this one might be better served aiding with overall.

[newdigitalGK]

I'm not partial to either? I know everyone has a slightly different opinion on how to do things but I figure if at least enough voices are heard on the survey it might provoke change.

[Karack Blackstone]

Thus my question, and idea.

 

Where do people think the best place for the "Form the Plan" discussion is then?

[Corvus Fortis]

I doubt that even if single Grey Knight player will point out at GK problems in the survey, they will be heard. Playerbase is simply not large enough. I also believe that GW already well aware of GK's dire situation, but it is probably not worth to change anything, since "WH40k is in a pretty good place right now". Pointing to a more common problems, like codex power creep, overall weakness of PA and TDA, etc. could be more effective, but not necessary. This survey is more about overall 40k direction, not about rules.

[Karack Blackstone]

I doubt that even if single Grey Knight player will point out at GK problems in the survey, they will be heard. Playerbase is simply not large enough. I also believe that GW already well aware of GK's dire situation, but it is probably not worth to change anything, since "WH40k is in a pretty good place right now". Pointing to a more common problems, like codex power creep, overall weakness of PA and TDA, etc. could be more effective, but not necessary. This survey is more about overall 40k direction, not about rules.

 

Fair.

 

Should the issue of PA and TDA not being entirely up to par be made the potential focus then? Of course, the issue is voluntary as far as contributions go...

[Chronos Darkhelmet]

My 2 cents on this topic:

 

I'm going to start from the premise that apparently community mails to GW did *not* produce any effect rulewise, just possibly the CA2018 point drop preceded by Rob Cruddace's declarations while commenting the London GT and followed by (official? unofficial? cannot remember) GW's statement about GDs not being happy in changing rules many times in a row and preferring to search game balance through point changes. AFAIK, this is the one and only fact that we do hold (please don't hesitate to correct me if anybody has more updated infos).

 

One other point that I cannot recall - and a search on this forum didn't help - is whether or not GK player base participated in last year's Community Survey bringing arguments about massive GK rule changes. I have vague remembrances about it being performed (at least by me) and surely being followed by at least two community feedback mails before Big FAQ runs in 2018. If GK players participated to 2018 survey asking for GK rules (+ general rules that negatively affect our army) improvement, this would mean *a whole year* of trials by us being basically ignored by GW.

 

Due to this, I have scarce feeling that any other collective initiatives by the GK base could have any impact on GW's decision about rules. Of course, this post *does not* want to discourage any action towards a GK rule improvement, therefore what I suggest rather than embarking on another copy-and-paste common feedback would be leaving the initiative of arranging the feedback text to single players (do you want to send a polite report based on data crunching? Do it! Do you prefer a tabloid-rant style? Do it! Don't have time to write anything well formatted? Just copy and paste our list of known problems!), limiting our efforts to compile a meaningful list of known issues in GK rules and general rules wrt GK to be addressed and leaving everyone to stick to what problems they feel to be the most urgent to be fixed.

 

Such a list doesn't cost much time as a proper letter to be formatted, may be useful at any time in the future, and could even be sticked to the page as a quick reference for future initiatives/comparisons/whatever. Here I start with my examples (just highlighting issues here, not providing any detailed info atm):

 

- rework of the psychic Rule Of One to allow GK at least a 2nd attempt to cast the same power in their turn;

- rework of Baby Smite towards a more effective version (maybe d3 MWs when cast on 10+, upping to d6 low-capped to 3 against Daemons);

- rework of the Tactical Reserves for GK, possibly allowing them to partially overcome the most two stringent limitations (half of the army number- and point-wise in Tac Res + DS only from 2nd turn on);

- rework of units/weapons that are pretty ineffective for the current status of the game (regular Termies, regular DKs), redundant (Purgators) or just too bad to be ever considered (Purifiers);

- obtaining game items (Start Collecting boxes, dedicated dice sets) that are now common to any other army *but* GK for apparently no reason;

- obtaining new units that aren't just copies from other roles and/or armies, though being game-effective in some cases (e.g., the GMiNDK).

 

Sorry for the wall of text, hope anyway to have transmitted my idea

[shanewatts]

Also, if a "core" list of critiques can be written here and now, it can be passed onto other medium's as well to increase the amount of feedback.

 

I haven't played my GK since 7th, but I am more than willing to help raise awareness to help out the community still. 

[TheMostGood]

Grey Knights seem to be in a weird spot where they are bottom of the barrel, but share enough units across other Astartes factions that any change on those other factions would also affect GK, perhaps more than intended. 

For example, let's say that GW buffed GK stormbolters in some fashion. Maybe they made Psybolt ammo purchasable through points, or a psychic test to cast. The Bolter Discipline Beta rule would have come out and then buffed GK more and potentially more than intended. 

 

Does this make sense? 

 

So it seems only logical that GW does the easiest and most direct "knob" to turn first: points. From there it will likely be a slow and steady adjustment here and there for the army until they get a new book. 

 

I don't think enough time has passed for GW to really see if that had any direct impact on how GK play on the table. So I do not expect much of anything to be in this FAQ. GK will likely not see any major changes until the Fall. 

[Trevak Dal]

Strike squads need two attacks base and the same leadership as gkt squads because they are the same guys.

 

Like Deathwatch it's an army of Veterans (or should be) who fight daemons.

 

Purifiers should have 3 like paladins do.

 

Give everything native deep strike. Give everything native psybolt (like special issue ammo) for everything.

 

That's my broken record response.

[Captain_Krash]

Give normal smite to GK characters only...the army could possible break the game if they allowed normal smite/or d3 MW per basic justicar to each squad. At that point pumping out a potential 12-15 mortal wounds each turn using MSU squads/characters some armies have zero defense and would be exploited to the heavens.

 

The stratagems need basically a complete rewrite to drop the CP cost of the army.

 

A few point drops here and there to be able to field more models. Never hurts especially with an elite army.

 

I love GK...but with custodes taking a huge chunk of their spot light they are in a tough place. They need more anti deamon stuff to really represent how they are supposed to be the bane of Daemons.

 

Krash

[Danarc]

 

The stratagems codex need basically a complete rewrite.

Fixed XD

[Corvus Fortis]

the army could possible break the game if they allowed normal smite/or d3 MW per basic justicar to each squad. 

 

 

Thousand Sons still have smite-spam and doesn't break game at all. Even if one can get 12-15 MW potential in their list, with how deepstrike works now, they could never unleash it in a same turn from all squads. Considering how fast GK units go down, there won't be any problems with GK smite-spam, I'm sure. GK doesn't have effective high-power shooting outside of VenDreads. This could be a compensation for this. GK smite should be always D3, but 3 on daemons, or 1 for Justicars and d3 on 11+ and always d3 on characters. This won't fix all our problems, but would be a small but effective boost. 

[Waking Dreamer]

Strike squads need two attacks base and the same leadership as gkt squads because they are the same guys.

 

Like Deathwatch it's an army of Veterans (or should be) who fight daemons.

 

Purifiers should have 3 like paladins do.

 

Give everything native deep strike. Give everything native psybolt (like special issue ammo) for everything.

 

That's my broken record response.

 

Strike Squads do have the same leadership as GKT - Ld 7/8.

 

2A base is fair seeing as how we have a very low model count. Purifiers aren't meant to be as good as Paladins in combat based on the lore though, but if they had 2A base already that's fine imo. More fitting if they had a psychic buff of some kind, I'd say 6" Purifying Flame and 2 DTW seems fluffy/potent enough.

[TheMostGood]

Grey Knights are already pretty decent in combat, IMO. I'm not so sure giving them more attacks in melee would make them perform better on the table top as a whole. 

 

Purifiers, for example, get that D6 Smite attack. That's nothing to scoff at. 

 

What I'd like to see is more survivability on the table top, stronger shooting, and more options. 

 

They could make use of an army wide ability that buffs their defense in some way. Like maybe give them 5+ invuln on everything because it's the "emperor's protection" or whatever. Things with an invuln get +1 - to a max of 3++. 

 

Or maybe +1 to saving throws. 
 

They need stronger shooting options, and the best thing I can think of would be just to make Psybolt ammunition a thing outside of stratagems. Points or psychic test. 

 

They need more options, so things that can deal with anti-air, or anti-tank. I think the easiest fix both for modeling and for "fluff" is to make the special weapons of the GK have more than one profile. Right? Because the wielder is channeling their "psychic might" into the bullet to make it magic. 

 

That Psilencer can do 4 shots at S4 AP0 D3, or 2 shots at S8 AP4 2 or whatever. You get the idea. 

 

Or just release more Space Marine models for Grey Knights. Give us more tanks perhaps. Or give us more CPs than normal since it is a small army to begin with. Although I feel if they go this route then they should limit who you can ally with so that you don't go in with Loyal 32 + your higher CPs from GK. 

2c

[Waking Dreamer]

^

We are alright in combat - but that's ONLY if our PAGKs and GKTs are taking Dual Falchions. Every other modelled melee option we might have had, is a bust unfortunately. Majority of the time maybe 2-3 models of our 5-man units get into combat, without dual Falchions that's just 2-3 attacks. Deathwatch, normal SM Veterans and Primaris all come with base 2A, and our cheapest Strikes - still costs more than them. From a recent Batrep (Tabetop Tactics) these images below illustrate a common situation for our PAGKs will find themselves in. At about half the number of their original full strength, going up against numerous cheap fodder and / or dedicated melee.



It's a forgone conclusion already. The Strikes aren't surviving that combat even with the optimal weapon loadout. But at 21 points per model, it would feel much better if they were actually dishing out 3A each, before the enemy lops off all of their heads. With 2A base and dual Falchions your getting 1 attack for every 7 points of your strike model. I'd give a thumbs up to that.

I definitely agree on the boost to staying power is needed (a problem all non-primaris SM share). it's interesting though, the army wide solution you suggested...it's actually the Sanctuary power in your description. I've said it before but one of the most amazing things GW could do (but never will) for us, is allow repeated casts of the Sanctic Discipline (with increasing costs) in the one phase. Now, that's an army wide rule we should have. Aren't GKs the best psykers in all of the Imperium? Aren't we an ARMY of the best psykers in all of the Imperium? It's fluffy, it's good.

That would plug up most of our deficiencies, like you said - potentially a near army wide 5++/4++. Because of our psychic might. Since we are all psykers, and are cheapest model is 21 points - because he is a psyker. It's deserving.

For the anti-armour options, I'm sure some will welcome the possibility of taking Predator tanks as GK units, but like you said...just make the GK special weapons we already have fit those specific roles better. They are already modelled onto most our units already (poor psycannon modelled infantry).

Keeping their base profile as is (mostly), I'd give them special rules that procs bonuses (thus follows the theme of force weapons, can be stronger by psykers channelling into them - but with a certain chance/randomness to them):

Psilencer – Heavy 6 S4 AP0 Damage D3

• Each hit roll of a 6+ with this weapon causes 2 hits instead of 1 (as if the mind bullets hits one model, going through and hitting another!).
• Each wound roll of a 6+ with this weapon increases the AP by 1.

Gatling Psilencer – Heavy 12 S4 AP0 Damage D3

• Each hit roll of a 6+ with this weapon causes 2 hits instead of 1.
• Each wound roll of a 6+ with this weapon increases the AP by 1.

Psycannon – Heavy 4 S7 AP-1 Damage 2

• Each wound roll of a 6+ with this weapon increases the AP by 2 and the damage by 1 (closest thing to 7Ed rending rule).

Heavy Psycannon – Heavy 6 S7 AP-1 Damage 2

• Each wound roll of a 6+ with this weapon increases the AP by 2 and the damage by 1.

The above profiles won't make the Psychic Onslaught (1 CP) strat redundant, but properly used can potentially make our Psycannon S8 AP-4 3 damage a shot!

[Corvus Fortis]

I agree, giving strikes +1 attack will instantly fix both their combat capability and falchion spam. Well, falchions probably would stay the best choice, but at least not auto-choice or you won't be shooting yourself in leg by taking halberds. But terminators should go for +1 attack too, or made significantly cheaper. 

 

I looked through some of our older rules and simply returning some of them will make us way better.

 

Psybolt ammunition should be a GK-detachment rule just like Dakka transformed from a stratagem to a rule. 

-1 to-hit for GK if they are more than 12 from enemy. Or at least considered in cover.

GK units should move d6 after deepstrike. At least as a stratagem.

 

Psilencer - wounds everything but Vehicles and Titanic on 4+. Not affected by Psychic onslaught. It will make it way scarier vs moster creatures without breaking it.

 

Psycannon - just give it 2 damage. Psilencer still will be superior against high T creatures and infantry because number of shots. Psycannon would be effective against light vehicles and heavy infantry, just like in previous edition. With psychic onslaught on purgators it will make 16 s8 ap-2 d2 shots. Not that bad, IMO.

 

Incinerators suffer the same problems other flamers do. But it is one of the best in this edition. A stratagem, that makes it range 12" after DS/gate will mostly fix it.

 

Nemesis force weapons should go 5th edition way of giving special rules to compensate lack of stormshields. 

Swords - 5+ invuln in close combat or +1 to invuln to a max of 3+.

Falchions - ok as it is.

Staff - 3+ invuln in combat, but no better than 3+. Should cost points.

Hammer - ok as it is. 

Halberd is hardest here, because there is no more initiative. Could be a mortal wound on 4+ after a successfull charge. 

 

H.psycannon goes to damage 3, h.incinerator is fine with new points, but could lose some more probably. Gat.psilencer wounds everything but vehicles and titanic on 4+.

 

Characters get always D3 smite but never D6. Always 3 against daemons. Justicars - 1 mw smite and D3 on 11 or 12+. Always d3 vs daemons.

 

Librarians get powers from librarius. Than they would be worth taking at least for fun.

 

Grand Masters on foot return spent CP on 5+ if one or more on the battlefield. GMNDK won't have this.

 

Chaplains should have litanies just like apostles have prayers, with diffrent effects. True for vanilla SM too.

 

Purifiers gets +2 attacks and 6" smite instead of 3".

 

Purgators squads either get relentless, or Astral Aim gets additional ability to ignore penalties for shooting on target.

 

NDK should have same stats and GMNDK but without giving rerolls. Make them comparable in cost.

 

And more importantly - GK have to have more antidaemon abilities. It is ridiculous, that mighty knights of titan can only reduce their invulns by 1 through warlord trait and leadership by 1 by a relic that no one will ever take unless GMNDK is their only HQ.

 

I'd like to see some antidaemon stratagems like Deathwatch ones:

 

- Against Khorne: when Khorne Deamon unit charges GK unit, substract number of slain models from charge range (like Deathwatch agains Orks);

- Against Tzeentch: when attacking with Nemesis Force Weapon, reduce invulnerable saves of Tzeentch Daemons by 1;

- Against Nurgle: when attacking with Bolter weapons, increase damage by 1, if target is a Nurgle daemon unit;

- Against Slaanesh: immidiately make a shooting attack against Slaaneshi Daemon unit, that finished movement in 12" from Grey Knights.

 

This rules won't make GK top tier competitive army. Probably not even tier 2. But this could make them more fun to play and compete at least in friendly games.

[Slasher956]

Halberds, better AP plus dealing extra hit on a natural 6 to wound unless you needed a 6 to wound(you've pushed the blade straight through one chaff into another one)

[newdigitalGK]

Halberds get to swing first if you were charged... I think that would add a flavor and make people want to take them.

[Corvus Fortis]

Halberds get to swing first if you were charged... I think that would add a flavor and make people want to take them.

 

 

It is not possible with how current Fight phase works. Unless, the rule is "if whole squad armed with halberds..." And if it is tied to a single model, which allows the whole squad strike first, this would make it auto-include in any squad, but only on one model.

[FallenSoldiers]

 

Halberds get to swing first if you were charged... I think that would add a flavor and make people want to take them.

 

It is not possible with how current Fight phase works. Unless, the rule is "if whole squad armed with halberds..." And if it is tied to a single model, which allows the whole squad strike first, this would make it auto-include in any squad, but only on one model.

It’s not that far off how how the Deathwatch mechanic works. Take 1 of something and the whole unit gets its special mechanic.

[Captain Coolpants]

I agree with most points on here.

 

Every character does need to have full smite!

 

Also think our basic grandmaster should allow us to get CP back.

 

I also really love the idea of us being allowed to multi-cast.

I mean we were able to do it before in previous editions with no penalties at all! And we weren't top tier then either! And that was with way more powerful powers like cleansing flame with its 'nova' area of affect, and vortex of doom being a D weapon, just removing whole models and having some board perminance too!

 

Psybolts definitely need to be a psychic test that can be multi cast.

 

Psycannons should just be base damage 2. Heavy psycannon with higher strength.

 

Gatling psilencers are an odd one. I mean yeah they are only strength 4 ap 0. But they are D3 wounds a piece. So i don't think they're bad. But mayyyybe have a minus AP on a wound roll of 6?

 

Think we need a stratagem that allows us to either move after deepstriking, or deepstrike closer.

 

I've always wanted our tanks to have options for the heavy psycannon and heavy incinerators too.

I think a razorback with a heavy incinerator would be kickass!

 

I do agree we need some defensive abilities. I don't think simply being able to multi-cast sanctuary would be enough. But I also don't think we should get anything "for free". So maybe another stratagem for 2 or 3 CP that allows for a shrouding type ability? It should of course effect the whole army. Maybe only turn 1? Depends on how good it works during play testing.

 

 

And this is going to be a very unpopular request from me.

But I don't believe our nemesis force weapons should be power weapons +1.

 

I liked how they worked a few editions ago, where the effectiveness was governed by the psychic might of the wielder and the enemy they were fighting.

If I remember correctly (my memory is bad though), things like grandmasters could use their nemesis weapons as force weapons, lower ranking and justiciars used them as power weapons, and regular chaff used them as regular melee, but had extra strength. And daemons couldn't take invun saves?

Then after this they were all balanced to basic power weapons with force (which could insta kill on a psychic test)

And now its just a flat D3 damage, which is actually pretty alright.

 

But I'd like some kind of combination of all this.

Maybe wound rolls of 5+ or 6+ have a minus against all saves (regular or invuln) and fighting against a daemon, you get +1 to the roll? And characters get a further bonus to this?

 

I dunno, it needs someone to sort that part out, to make it more thematic than just power swords with d3 wounds.

 

And then because we'd need to rely on a specific roll or cast to activate the nemesis weapons, maybe that will then allow GW to justify giving us more attacks base, or a points decrease?

 

I dunno, the last part is just a spitball type idea. But the rest i believe should be implemented in some way.

[Panzer]

 

Halberds get to swing first if you were charged... I think that would add a flavor and make people want to take them.

 

 

It is not possible with how current Fight phase works. Unless, the rule is "if whole squad armed with halberds..." And if it is tied to a single model, which allows the whole squad strike first, this would make it auto-include in any squad, but only on one model.

 

 

Strike first isn't exactly a good rule anyway the way the fight phase works. It's only relevant the if the opponent charged with 2 or more units (and only if all your charged units have the halberds) or if the bonus works in turn 2+ of the combat as well (which wouldn't make much sense) since when he charged he also strikes first and since it's his turn he goes first selecting a unit to fight with if they have the same initiative.

Ask the Emperor's Children how useful their "always strikes first" Legion trait is. 

Some other bonus when getting charged would be interesting though. How about an additional attack or more strength or more AP?

[Waking Dreamer]

I'm really liking the idea of psybolts being granted by a psychic test, but what would be the consensus of the value required, 5, 6 or 7? Would it increase in casting cost per attempt? Would it also take up a unit's casting slot during the psychic phase, i.e. strikes and terminators wouldn't be able to smite instead (since they can only cast once per phase).

[Danarc]

Lol we could send again the mail already sent last years. There are the same proposals. :)