Teleport, Shoot, Die - Deathwing in 8th Edition

[lhavoc]

I think that GW really hated DeathRaven when it became such a popular tactic. They have spent the last several editions pushing Greenwing to the point where the Azrael Castle became our default tactic. The new Bolter rule has made Deathwing a good deepstriking chaff killer, but does not let it be as decisive as it could be if Deathwing could follow up with an assault. Deathwing Knights could benefit by being able to teleport and have a better chance to get into assault. Bringing back teleport homers for Ravenwing and possibly Scouts & Vanguard to bring the charge from 9” to 3-6” would make Assaulting DW Knights devastating and do much with our mixed weapon Deathwing. Right now the only really effective tactic we have is teleport, shoot, die.

[ambit]

I think the issues with Deathwing are:

a. it's hard to deepstrike within range of the units you want to kill, due to cheap bodies and good screening.

b. if relying on them to get into melee, Deathwing don't have much to help them with a 9" charge.

 

If been working on a list that uses Seraphim and Deathwing to drop in and use their 'movement phase' shooting strategem to clear a unit each, with the goal of forming a dropzone for further deepstriking units. Rather than assuming I can get that dropzone within 9", I've assumed 12-18" is a reasonable expectation. So the drop is for primarily shooting units.

 

Considered Deathwing Knights, but not being able to guarantee that 9" range + the difficulty in making that charge was the deciding factor.

 

So the deep-striking anti-tank 'hammer' involves 6 Dark Angel Plasma Inceptors (using Weapons from the Dark Age - 1CP), a Dark Angel Phobos Lieutenant w Grav Chute (he's the Warlord with Target Sighted giving +1 to hit on the Inceptors, for Safe Plasma) and buffed by Sammael in Sableclaw, re-roll hits. 12D3 S8 AP-3 D3 shots with +1 to hit (no overcharging) and re-roll 1s to hit and wound. Without Invul saves, that's 54 damage to a T7 and 41 to a T8.

 

Whilst the deep-striking anti-infantry 'hammer' is a Watch Master using the Beason Angelis to transport a stationary Deathwatch Intercessor unit w 5 Aggressors. Pumping out an avg 95 S4 shots, re-roll hits, and with the correctly chosen tactic, re-roll 1s to wound and +1 to wound. That's not including the 10 S4 AP-1 shots from the Intercessors, and the Watch Master himself. Sammael and the Talonmaster will be contributing to the anti-infantry firepower too.

 

List is here - http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355110-competitive-da-deepstrike-hammer/

Edited April 8, 2019 by ambit

[Orkinstein]

I think the issues with Deathwing are:

a. it's hard to deepstrike within range of the units you want to kill, due to cheap bodies and good screening.

b. if relying on them to get into melee, Deathwing don't have much to help them with a 9" charge.

 

If been working on a list that uses Seraphim and Deathwing to drop in and use their 'movement phase' shooting strategem to clear a unit each, with the goal of forming a dropzone for further deepstriking units. Rather than assuming I can get that dropzone within 9", I've assumed 12-18" is a reasonable expectation. So the drop is for primarily shooting units.

 

Considered Deathwing Knights, but not being able to guarantee that 9" range + the difficulty in making that charge was the deciding factor.

 

So the deep-striking anti-tank 'hammer' involves 6 Dark Angel Plasma Inceptors (using Weapons from the Dark Age - 1CP), a Dark Angel Phobos Lieutenant w Grav Chute (he's the Warlord with Target Sighted giving +1 to hit on the Inceptors, for Safe Plasma) and buffed by Sammael in Sableclaw, re-roll hits. 12D3 S8 AP-3 D3 shots with +1 to hit (no overcharging) and re-roll 1s to hit and wound. Without Invul saves, that's 54 damage to a T7 and 41 to a T8.

 

Whilst the deep-striking anti-infantry 'hammer' is a Watch Master using the Beason Angelis to transport a stationary Deathwatch Intercessor unit w 5 Aggressors. Pumping out an avg 95 S4 shots, re-roll hits, and with the correctly chosen tactic, re-roll 1s to wound and +1 to wound. That's not including the 10 S4 AP-1 shots from the Intercessors, and the Watch Master himself. Sammael and the Talonmaster will be contributing to the anti-infantry firepower too.

 

List is here - http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355110-competitive-da-deepstrike-hammer/

Aggressors don't count as moved?

[Berzul]

I think that screening is not really a fault of the Codex. Its a basic game mechanic that all deepstrikers must deal with.

 

To me, our real issues with the Deathwing are as follows:

 

1) Almost no way to boost our charges. Unless you go with a nearby character with Master of Maneuver, or a CP for a rerrolled die, your chances of landing a charge are quite bad.

 

I really would have loved to have teleport homers, or a drop-then-move, stratagems, calling back to what the units could do in 7th ed.

 

2) No DW lieutenant. I mean, GW has the lieutenants, and RW has the Talonmaster. ... Why didn't the DW get its own unit to fill that role? Makes sense to have one.

 

And, maybe, as the Talonmaster grants the RW something special like Ignore Cover, the DW Lieutenant could have brought something unique to the table. Maybe something that aids in what the units suffer with.

 

3) Low resillience.

 

Yeah, they are 2+/5++, but for 165 points a squad at best, that 5++ won't do much, and that 2+ can be brought down real easy this edition.

 

Their 2 wounds are good, but not enough. Often times a squad of DW will last as much as a regular squad of tactical marines.

 

And, when you think about it, a 10 man tactical squad with full plasma brings 10 wounds, as much bolter fire, and better heavy/special weapons fire than a standard DW squad... For 168 points.

 

Sure, the DW can drop in, while the marines have to walk, but that doesn't seem entirely like a fair trade off to me.

 

4) Not enough decent stratagems.

 

Seriously. We can take a squad, make it lose one turn of shooting by dropping in on the 2nd turn, then we get to spend 2/3 cp to get that shooting turn back.

 

I get the appeal of shooting twice, but I feel that the catch here makes the payoff not that much worth it.

 

Then we have fortress of shields. Ok, decent. But why make it work only in the fight phase? Why can't we lock shields to withstand a volley of shots? Would make sense to be able to do so!

 

What else do we have?

 

Never forgive, never forget... How often do YOU get to charge in against a unit with your DW? ... And against FALLEN?! C'mon.

 

And Indo believe thats it. No other stratagems that benefit our DW directly.

 

All in all, the state of our codex makes me think someone in GW really hates the DA's 1st Company.

 

 

EDIT: Also, 5) I do think our command squad is waaaay too expensive.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Berzul

[Berzul]

Btw, I have to clarify that I DO understand the tactical utility of dealing two rounds of shooting, one after the other, with a deepstriking squad.

 

Im not say DWA sucks. Im just saying I dont think that alone is enough. And that its good but not as good as it might seem at first.

[ambit]

Aggressors don't count as moved?

 

 

Yeah they are stationary during the movement phase, and using the Beacon doesn't count as moving or they would have the wording like Da Jump and other similar abilities 'This unit counts as having moved for the purposes of any rules (e.g. firing Heavy Weapons).' So having not moved, they can fire twice. Would need to bring it up with your opponent beforehand though, so there isn't any mid game arguments.

 

As to teleporting at the end of movement phase, then using the beacon. It's resolved like all other 'end of movement' abilities, where the controlling player gets to decide the order.

 

Edit: after looking for clarification on this, it was pointed out that the FAQ on the main rulebook says they count as having moved. Can still use the Beacon on that unit though. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355150-beacon-angelis-rules-discussion/?do=findComment&comment=5292845

Edited April 8, 2019 by ambit

[ambit]

Btw, I have to clarify that I DO understand the tactical utility of dealing two rounds of shooting, one after the other, with a deepstriking squad.

 

Im not say DWA sucks. Im just saying I dont think that alone is enough. And that its good but not as good as it might seem at first.

 

Yeah, totally agree that they have done a decent job with the ravenwing but deathwing have very mediocre strategems that need some love... possibly through a new 'attack squadron' style formation and a deathwing lieutenant. Would be cool if the Lieutenant also gave charge re-rolls?

Edited April 8, 2019 by ambit

[Berzul]

Maybe they could bring back the Deathwing Strike Force, now as a specialist detachment.

[lhavoc]

Unfortunately, they are reimagining Apocalypse, so the Deathwing Strike Force formation from the original Apoc will no longer exist. Edited April 8, 2019 by lhavoc

[Cleanse And Purify]

They should bring back the old terminator armor rules from 2nd edition (when we last had armor save modifiers): 3+ save on a 2d6. But only for Deathwing >.>

 

For strategems:

 

3 CP:

 

"Covenant of Death"

 

A unit of Deathwing Terminators may deepstrike Turn 1.

 

2 CP:

 

"Repent! For tomorrow you die!"

 

When a unit of Deathwing Knights deepstrikes, it may add +D3 inches to its charge move for that turn.

 

But those might just garbage too, who knows, I'm no tourney winner.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Cleanse And Purify

[Berzul]

They should bring back the old terminator armor rules from 2nd edition (when we last had armor save modifiers): 3+ save on a 2d6. But only for Deathwing >.>

Yeah, that would be awesome. You could maybe add it as a Lt.'s buff, even.

 

A guy with a 6" aura tha makes models (or units, if we are generous) within it roll their saves on 2 dice.

 

Maybe explained as the Lt. encouraging the units along, to hold their ground against enemy fire.

[lhavoc]

Unlikely to happen unless Ultras get that or something better. Go with Homers. It's built into the fluff and would scare the daylights out of opponents. Ravenwing, Scouts, Vanguard (especially of Deathwing could avoid the "Must deepstrike by Turn X" nonsense. He/e's something that would be fun:

 

Turn 0: Scout Pre-Deploy

Turn 1: Scout Move /Establish initial positions. Vanguard Strike to deep fortified positions

Turn 2: Alpha Strike with Ravenwing

Turn 3: Establish enemy center of mass

Turn 4: Deathwing Assault - Close approach, consolidated firepower & devastating assault on primary target (location of Fallen)

Turn 5: End phase/Final battle

[Angel of Solitude]

I see there as being two issues with Deathwing:

 

1. The inability to do anything beyond the initial DWA assault after teleportation;

2. The uselessness of the 2+/5++ combination.

 

The 5" move of terminators means that once they're down, they're going nowhere. You drop within 9", clear out the chaff screen, and if you're opponent has done their job correctly, then you're another turn away from being able to charge into combat and make use of those expensive power/chainfists that you have little option other than to pay the points for.

 

To a certain extent, an additional D3" away from 9" as suggested by @Cleanse and Purify may help with that, but if your opponent has set up correctly, then you're still going to suffer.once you've cleared the screen.

 

In fact, DWA can make things worse; if you leave some models in the screen unit alive,  you can charge, kill in combat, and then use the 3" consolidation to move closer to the next line, making the second turn bit more successful...assuming you survive.

 

...which brings me to my second point. 2+/5++ only has value if you're up against AP-4 weaponry...which I don't believe is that often. @Berzul makes the good point regarding Fortress of Shields - allowing this stratagem to be used during the shooting phase would make a massive impact to the survivability of Deathwing, particularly for Knights that fail their first turn charge - with no shooting weapons, they just become sitting ducks.

 

This change would make 5 storm bolters / 2 AC / 3 TH/SS Deathwing a potent, survivable unit. 

 

What would improve Deathwing even more would be the ability to take a SS / storm bolter combination. This is what Deathwatch can do, so why not Deathwing?

[Berzul]

If I had the chance to change up the deathwing, I'd do the following:

 

1) Add homers, if only as a 1CP stratagem, on all RW and scout units.

 

2) Give them a rule that allows them to ignore AP of AP-1 weapons. Makes sense for a plasma or melta shot to take out a Terminator; less so for a heavy bolter or assault cannon.

 

3) Increase their toughness to 5.

 

4) Make fortress of shields usable in the movement phase, and work against shooting and melee attacks for the turn.

 

5) Lower some of the costs of the Command Squad models.

 

6) Add a DW Lieutenant that can give us to-wound rerrolls and +2" to charge and advance moves in a 6" bubble.

 

7) The idea to allow Storm Shields and Storm Bolters sounds good too. I like it.

[Berzul]

Is there a way for the community to present Games Workshop with ideas on how to improve upon the Deathwing?

[oldmanlee]

Is there a way for the community to present Games Workshop with ideas on how to improve upon the Deathwing?

Email them? I would think

Tbh I don't think gw care deathwing and terminators have been bad for so long they have had ample time to make them better. Same with tactical marines and assault marines primaris marines seem to be there focus but it never hurts to try

Edited April 8, 2019 by oldmanlee

[Berzul]

 

Is there a way for the community to present Games Workshop with ideas on how to improve upon the Deathwing?

 

Email them? I would think

 

 

No, yeah, but I mean, as a community.

I remember quite a while back a whole conversationt took place in which everyone was throwing ideas on how to improve the DW. Maybe we could pick up that, and here, post and discuss and agree on a list of suggestion we could send -as a community- to the company, on how they could tweak the DW and make em better.

[UtariOnzo]

Homebrew rules subforum. Brainstorm and actually playtest them, giving feedback on the results. Tweek as needed depending on the datat.

 

As a community, certainly one could brainstorm stuff up collectively, but it’s getting the nuts and bolts to work that is the key to GW taking it seriously. If we can get enough folks giving useful data and feedback to us using suggested changes, it’s easier to make a case.

[Berzul]

Homebrew rules subforum. Brainstorm and actually playtest them, giving feedback on the results. Tweek as needed depending on the datat.

 

As a community, certainly one could brainstorm stuff up collectively, but it’s getting the nuts and bolts to work that is the key to GW taking it seriously. If we can get enough folks giving useful data and feedback to us using suggested changes, it’s easier to make a case.

 

Done, and done!

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355163-improving-the-deathwing-in-the-dark-angels-codex/

[Angel of Solitude]

I'm not sure if this is common knowledge, but GW do have an e-mail address for FAQ feedback:

 

40kFAQ@gwplc.com

 

As @oldmanlee said,  you may not get much response through this channel, but some advice I received recently is that if you first present to them a specific problem, rather than a final solution with no context, then it may get a bit more traction.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Sorry to be the pessimist, but they won't fix TDA rules until they want to sell more. Which will be never.

 

With GW doubling down on their Primaris cousins and new units due to a sales strategy I am not holding my breath for any improvement other than the ubiquitous points drop as they become steadily worse in comparison with the new stuff. Just like Dreadnoughts compared with Vendreads, and Irondreads, and Contemptors and Leviathans. The old top dogs become chaff.

 

At least they will always look the coolest as they die to the small arms fire that they are meant to weather without issue.

 

That all they are good for is chaff killers is so wrong, but GW will continue to invent new bolter varieties with improved range, AP and damage for Primaris related units whilst making SBs marginally better at chaff removal, TDA is becoming a Chaff unit.

 

The reintroduction of the movement stat has basically destroyed 75% of their damage potential, without better shooting than a bunch of AP0 guns they're relegated to the shelves of players all around the world.

 

Or 9th may prove me wrong and transports might be able to deliver them properly again.

 

Do it GW, Just.Do.It.

 

 

 

Also; I encourage you all to submit your thoughts to GW, collectively players can make a difference.

Edited April 9, 2019 by Interrogator Stobz

[Berzul]

Well, yeah. In a way, this goes for all marine players. In a couple more years, all there will be, will be Primaris.

 

Primaris Tactical Marines

Primaris Assault Marines

Primaris Devastator Marines

Primaris Scouts

 

And, of course,

 

Primaris Terminators

Primaris Bikers

Primaris Darkshrouds

Primaris Azrael

Primaris Ezekiel

Primaris Belial

Primaris Sammael

Primaris Talonmaster

Etc.

 

To the point that, already, in their community posts, Primaris Marines are no longer 'Primaris' Marines. They are just 'Marines'.

 

Still, if my army is going to be made obsolete by GW, I might as well point out what I feel sucks about the standing army anyway.

 

No harm in suggesting changes. Ive made an updated list in my post at the homebrew rules, if you guys want to check that out.

Edited April 9, 2019 by Berzul

[G8Keeper]

We had a long discussion on Terminator survival at Salute on Saturday.  Here is what was being suggested, individual solutions, not all at once:

 

• T5
• 3 wounds
• 3+ on 2D6 save
• Reduce all weapons hitting them AP by 1
• Bring back Relentless (and Universal Rules in general to actually make the game faster)

I personally like the reducing the AP, they instantly become better against every weapon bar anything that does mortal wounds and AP 0.

Edited April 9, 2019 by G8Keeper

[Berzul]

Well, my ideas as I posted them in the subforum for ruiles, are these:

Rules for all terminators across all chapters:

1) Ignore AP on AP-1 weapons.

2) Have a Toughness of 5.

3) Allow a Storm Shield and Storm Bolter weapon loadout option.

 

***

Rules exclusively for the Deathwing

4) Change Fortress of Shields to the following: 1CP - Use this when a Deathwing Unit that has three or more Storm Shields is the target of a shooting or melee attack. For the rest of the phase all rolls to wound the unit with shooting or melee attacks are at a -1.

5) Change the name of the stratagem Deathwing Assault for Vengeful Strike. Allow it to be used for 1 CP on Deathwing Characters.

6) Add a new stratagem called Deathwing Assault that does the following: 1 CP if used on a Deathwing character, 2 CP if used on a Deathwing 1-5 man squad, and 3 CP if used on a Deathwing 6-10 man squad - Use this at the end of the movement phase of your first turn. The unit can Deep Strike at the end of this movement phase, as long as it ends up more than 9 inches away from enemy models, and outside the enemy deployment zone.

7) Add a new stratagem called Summon the Deathwing that does the following:  1 CP if used on a Deathwing character, 2 CP if used on a Deathwing 1-5 man squad, and 3 CP if used on a Deathwing 6-10 man squad -Use this when you declare a Deathwing unit to enter by deep strike. The unit can now be deployed more than 6" away from enemy models instead of more than 9" away, as long as it is entirely deployed within 6" of a Ravenwing Bike or Ravenwing Landspeeder (that would include Ravenwing Bikers, Ravenwing Attack Bikes, Ravenwing Black Knights, Ravenwing Landspeeders, Ravenwing Darkshroud, Landspeeder Vengeance, Ravenwing Champions, Ravenwing Apothecaries, and Ravenwing Ancients). Also, if used in conjunction with Deathwing Assault, the squad still must deploy entirely outside the enemy deployment zone.

8) Adjust the cost of the Deathwing Champion, Deathwing Apothecary, and Deathwing Ancient.

9) Add a Deathwing Lieutenant as a Terminator Character with the Deathwing Keyword, armed with Power Sword and Storm Bolter, but with access to other weapon options such as Thudner Hammer and Storm Shield and Lightning Claws. This character would give all Deathwing Units within 6 inches rerrolls of 1s to wound, as well as +2" of movement on advance and charge rolls.

10) Make all our TDA characters Deathwing again.

[HandsWithLegs]

The main thing I want with them is a teleport homer so we can actually get close. That alone would make them so much better