Teleport, Shoot, Die - Deathwing in 8th Edition

[domsto]

I would suggest all Terminator should become T5(as everybody seems to want) and ignore move and Heavy like they did in previous Editions.

But what I really would love to see is a complete rework of our chapter Tactic. as it is now it does little to nothing for the Deathwing and Ravenwing elements. 

I would do it the Dark Eldar way and give 3 little Chapter Tactics instead of one big.

So maybe:

Green Wing keeps the Chapter Tactic as it is now(to be honest our Chapter Tactic isn't realy good in the First place)

Deathwing gets reroll fails Charge rolls when they came out of DS this Turn.

Ravenwing can still shoot after they fell back or they get no -1 to hit with assault Weapons when they advanced.

 

But that is just a dream of mine and real doubt GW would do this.

[PhilB]

DW & RW already have a sub chapter tactic. DW are fearless & RW get jink.

 

T5, 3W, ignore -1 AP, whatever, just something to increase their resilience is required.

 

After the beta bolter drill, I’m perfectly happy with their output when equipped with storm bolters. I agree they should ignore the -1 to hit on moving heavy weapons, but that’s a whole other issue imo. I personally think -1 to hit on any heavy platform (Pred, Dread, Land Speeder, whatever) is garbage, regular infantry models I understand.

On the subject of damage output and -1 to hit modifiers, they should drop the modifier for heavy melee weapons too (power fists at least) the penalty is too harsh for an already low melee output unit.

 

Regarding the DW Lt. I completely disagree they do nothing for DW and aren’t required. Who wouldn’t want to bring a re-roll ones to would aura with their DW (of any type or load out). This is especially true in melee, when we’re talking throes high str weapons, rolls those ones on power fists really hurts. Plus you get another relatively decent beat stick character in your front line. Yes you can get this with a regular Lt. with a jump pack but come on, it’s not all about min. maxing, it’s nice to play coherent effective rules but also write thematic, fluffy and visually pleasing lists to play.

[Harleqvin]

A teleport homer mechanic utilising Ravenwing would be cool and thematic. Points or CP, I don’t particularly care, it just would be fun to use and fluffy to build a list around.

Couldn’t agree more on the need for a DW Lt. It just feels dirty having a green power armoured Lt. tag along with your DW Knights. I think the extra movement part is pushing it though. Could they just not give Lts the option to take TDA?

I think a larger issue with 8th and deep strike charges is getting the support characters in with the unit they’re supporting. Leaving a ‘tail’ back to your support character “just in case they fail the charge” is frustrating and really detracts from the immersion for me. Bring back Independent Characters joining units and rolling 1 charge for all.

I’m also not sold on 3+ saves on 2d6 either, sounds great in theory, but imagine rolling 2 dice individually for each save when a mob of 30 boyz shoot at you, or 6 Aggressors double tap because you failed that 9” charge.

I was workshopping marine armour in general a few weeks ago with a friend, we were thinking all marine armour should be 2+, with the heavier variants like TDA or Gravis adding toughness or -1 modifier immunities. Instead of a 3+ invulnerable, storm shields could provide -2 immunity or re-roll failed saves or something. If all marines were 2+ base you could also bring back -1 AP on std bolsters too and not have it wreck marines further.

I like what they did with 8th in a lot of ways, but they could have thought further out of the box instead of arching back to a lot of legacy rules.

I’ve often thought about trying out the TDA saves as 2/3+ on 2d6 (or a d12. As then a 1 would be an auto fail as usual,) instead of them having an invulnerable save (as being done on 2d6 would pretty much negate the need of an invuln this edition.)

New thing for GW to sell. Terminator/wounds Dice sets. 5d12s (can be used for TDA saves or for wounds.)

Or even TDA having an ability to negate up to 3AP.

 

Something I’ve been working on in my head is a way for them to get an ability like CSM for the specific legions. WE armies get berserkers as troops, DG get plague marines, TS get Rubric, EC get Noise.

 

Something like

For Battleforged DEATHWING keyword Patrol, Battalion, and Brigade detachments only, make it so keyword LANDRAIDER and DREADNOUGHT can be chosen to be put in a Deathwing detachment without preventing the detachment from being Battleforged for DEATHWING faction.

“Landraider”, “Landraider Crusader”, & “Landraider Redeemer” datasheets may be taken as Dedicated Transport battlefield role. “Deathwing Terminator Squad” datasheet units become Troop choices.

“Deathwing Tartaros Terminator Squad” datasheet units become Fast Attack choices.

 

That way we could get some more CPs, and have a fluffy army in Matched Play.

Feel free to send that spot into the GW faq email.

I also have a similar thought about Ravenwing too.

 

But yeah. I also feel that this edition (even with the updated points and the Beta Bolter Discipline, that Dw (all TDA really,) aren’t as good as they should be. They can get killed way to easily with all the plasma that is generally used in this edition.

 

G8keeper’s idea about WitD becoming static but costs more would be awesome. Probably would end up being 15/20 points as a negate on a 5+ is actually pretty darn good.

 

Also I have thought about a Lt model for Dw.

A Deathwing Lieutenant datasheet should have the stats and abilities like a power armor lieutenant, but with being in TDA would increase its wounds characteristic to 5.

It should have as basic Wargear: Stormbolter and Powersword.

With Wargear options being:

• This model may replace its storm bolter with an item from the Terminator Combi-weapons list.

• This model may replace its power sword with a chainfist, a storm shield or an item from the

Terminator Melee Weapons list.

• This model may replace both it’s Stormbolter and Power sword with a pair of Lightning Claws.

• This model may replace its Stormbolter and Power sword with a Thunderhammer and Storm shield.

(Maybe even havin a choice of being one of the other types of TDA.)

Edited April 20, 2019 by Harleqvin

[Helias_Tancred]

1. Deep strike got neutered in 8th edition. IMO the scales went too far in the opposite direction.

 

2. Terminators still sorta suck for the cost. Two wounds was a move in the right direction but for their cost and what they are supposed to be in the lore, they are still sorely lacking.

 

3. I'm 0-2-1 using Deathwing knights. First time they teleported in, and didn't get into melee until the 3rd turn and by then the game was pretty much decided (I won lol). Second time they were in a Stormraven, it landed and they charged out but due to some movement shenanigans they got charged by khorne berzerkers and a chaos lord and got smoked! Third time they were in a Land Raider Crusader that got wrecked turn 1, they got out, and got drowned in volume of shots by Necrons. lol. Overall I still think they're great but they are a finesse unit, very delicate and difficult in getting good use out of them. This shouldn't be for terminators in 40k, see #2.

 

Verdict. Yes Deathwing got hosed in our codex. Not very good, too much finesse to use them.

[G8Keeper]

Deep Striking 1 unit for 1 CP, up to 3 at an additional CP each on turn one could also be a way of reviving the game play aspect of DW.  I think limiting it works better than outlawing altogether, the 9" distance and pretty easily available screening units prevents most shenanigans.

[oldmanlee]

Have to say all this talk of deathwing has got me thinking of running them at two local torney later in the year just not sure Mech or dreads and terminators ?

[Berzul]

Have to say all this talk of deathwing has got me thinking of running them at two local torney later in the year just not sure Mech or dreads and terminators ?

Don't.

[oldmanlee]

 

Have to say all this talk of deathwing has got me thinking of running them at two local torney later in the year just not sure Mech or dreads and terminators ?

Don't.

Haha

Might not if the April FAQ don't change anything that might be it for me with 40k.

[Berzul]

I'm anxiously waiting for the FAQ

[G8Keeper]

Expect nothing and you won't be disappointed brothers.

[domsto]

The moral imunnity of the Deathwing isn't really usefull

Terminators either die in one go or only 1-2 models die.

I am still waiting for the first timr my Marines fail a Moral check...

Moral became a joke this edition. Even more as last edition.

 

To jinks

Yes it is nice to have a 4++

But you sacrifice a whole round of shooting with your bikes.

Or play Black Knights with their assault plasma talon thingis.

But then you can't overcharge them and also lack output.

So on paper both rule are nice, but not really usefull or good.

[Isual]

To jinks

Yes it is nice to have a 4++

But you sacrifice a whole round of shooting with your bikes.

Or play Black Knights with their assault plasma talon thingis.

But then you can't overcharge them and also lack output.

So on paper both rule are nice, but not really usefull or good.

 

You could use "speed of the raven" to mitigate the effect at least for one unit. Especialy the BK should profit highly from this.

[Berzul]

The DW chapter tactic is pretty much useless... Seriously, how often would you need to be fearless with a 5 man squad of Ld8 and ATSNKF?

 

And, the whole rerrolling hits vs the fallen thing is SO useless, I honestly forget we even get that nine times out of ten.

 

So much so, that when I go through my stratagems deck before each game, I always stop at the one that gives a Character the Inner Circle special rule, and I have to stop and go to the codex to actually remember what the hell that does. And, not surprisingly, I haven't used that stratagem, ever.

 

Inner Circle is useless in game, and to me, is the same as not having a rule at all.

[oldmanlee]

The DW chapter tactic is pretty much useless... Seriously, how often would you need to be fearless with a 5 man squad of Ld8 and ATSNKF?

 

And, the whole rerrolling hits vs the fallen thing is SO useless, I honestly forget we even get that nine times out of ten.

 

So much so, that when I go through my stratagems deck before each game, I always stop at the one that gives a Character the Inner Circle special rule, and I have to stop and go to the codex to actually remember what the hell that does. And, not surprisingly, I haven't used that stratagem, ever.

 

Inner Circle is useless in game, and to me, is the same as not having a rule at all.

It's almost like are codex had no thought put in to it during the development stage

[Interrogator Stobz]

But wait, don't we have uber expensive strats for units that don't generate enough of them?

[Berzul]

After all this discussion, and a year and a half of having the codex released, I think that, at this juncture, it is pretty obvious that the codex itself was poorly designed overall.

[sneakybamsen]

After all this discussion, and a year and a half of having the codex released, I think that, at this juncture, it is pretty obvious that the codex itself was poorly designed overall.

 

I won't argue that certain elements of our dear book don't suck, but I will say, that I will be doing what I can, to make the most of what we can get to lay waste to our enemies. Got a practice game tonight with my GT list, which I should be featuring in about a month and a half, subject to getting the rest painted, of course. It's by no means a list that contains deathwing, but what we can get to do work, I think we should.

[domsto]

We can only hope when the Space Marines Codex 2.0 drops, there will also be a Dark Angels 2.0 Codex.

Asmany of you say, most of our Special Rules are useless. Even our Chaptertactic is kinda useless in my opinion. SM don't lack on reroll 1s bubbles.

[domsto]

You could use "speed of the raven" to mitigate the effect at least for one unit. Especialy the BK should profit highly from this.

But to rely on a Stratagem to make a unit work isn't really good design.

Speed of raven should be a special rule for all Ravenwing units and not locked behind a Staratagem.

One of many times where i fill GW stripped og Special Rules from units to but it into stratagems.

[sneakybamsen]

We can only hope when the Space Marines Codex 2.0 drops, there will also be a Dark Angels 2.0 Codex.

Asmany of you say, most of our Special Rules are useless. Even our Chaptertactic is kinda useless in my opinion. SM don't lack on reroll 1s bubbles.

 

GW has not made any promises we will have an SM 2.0 book - we can hope that we will get one that will grant help to DA, BA, SW and maybe even GK (and other stand alone marine books if I have forgotten any), or updated codices for these armies as well.

 

True that our chapter tactic in practice does not work with DW or RW, as noone will ever end up in a situation where they will not be moving. But it does mean, that if you are running heavy weapons, you get an extra boon for standing still with scouts/marines, even more so with beta bolters, without having to pay for a master of some sort. It does mean we can make the phobos lieutenant warlord with the +1 to hit against a single enemy unit, and still have both reroll 1's on to hit and to wound from an 86 point model. Not too bad imho. But, yeah, I'd rather have something more useable too.

[oldmanlee]

The sad fact is are codex has been left in the dust due to the horrendous power creep that the game has seen after are Dex dropped. That the main reason I'm waiting to see what the April FAQ fixes (not much I'm going to guess) before I commit to buying anymore as I don't want to keep buying models for a army that so underpowered it's a shame as I started playing dark Angels in 2nd

[G8Keeper]

The DW chapter tactic is pretty much useless... Seriously, how often would you need to be fearless with a 5 man squad of Ld8 and ATSNKF?

 

And, the whole rerrolling hits vs the fallen thing is SO useless, I honestly forget we even get that nine times out of ten.

 

So much so, that when I go through my stratagems deck before each game, I always stop at the one that gives a Character the Inner Circle special rule, and I have to stop and go to the codex to actually remember what the hell that does. And, not surprisingly, I haven't used that stratagem, ever.

 

Inner Circle is useless in game, and to me, is the same as not having a rule at all.

 

I play against Fallen pretty regulary and still forget we get re-rolls.  ::sigh::

[SinnerBeta]

Since we're swapping ideas:
 
1) make them S5 and T5
OR
2) change crux terminatus to 5+ FNP
OR
3) +1 save against attacks with damage 1 and relentless
AND
a. return the Deathwing special rule to Masters by default and add a special rule that one vanguard detachment in your army that consist solely of units with the Deathwing keyword gain the ability to deep strike on turn 1
OR

b. Deathwing Lt: a Venerable Dreadnought with the DW Lt aura and an aura that allows you to reroll your DW units to reroll 1s on their inv save or ignore cover
OR
c. special teleport homers on Ravenwing, allow you to deep strike within 9" of the Ravenwing unit and count as not having moved (so you can move as if they were on the table from the start of the turn, or stand and shoot heavy weapons without -1 to hit, etc)
 
I'll probably come up with more.

Edited April 24, 2019 by SinnerBeta

[Berzul]

Since we're swapping ideas:

 

1) make them S5 and T5

OR

2) change crux terminatus to 5+ FNP

OR

3) +1 save against attacks with damage 1 and relentless

AND

a. return the Deathwing special rule to Masters by default and add a special rule that one vanguard detachment in your army that consist solely of units with the Deathwing keyword gain the ability to deep strike on turn 1

OR

b. Deathwing Lt: a Venerable Dreadnought with the DW Lt aura and an aura that allows you to reroll your DW units to reroll 1s on their inv save or ignore cover

OR

c. special teleport homers on Ravenwing, allow you to deep strike within 9" of the Ravenwing unit and count as not having moved (so you can move as if they were on the table from the start of the turn, or stand and shoot heavy weapons without -1 to hit, etc)

 

I'll probably come up with more.

 

Strength 5 might be much.

 

The +5FnP instead of the 5++ sounds interesting, to be honest. A lot better, too, but not very thematic of the unit.

 

The +1 to save rolls against D1 attacks sounds like a good idea, actually. But then, that would make them straight up immune to D1 AP0 attacks. You'd be saving at 2+ with a +1 to the roll... impossible to fail.

 

Masters being DW again, I think is a good way to go.

 

As for the DW detachment, I'd save that for a specialist detachment.

 

Now, the Lieutenant being a Venerable Dreadnought I had never considered. Makes a thematic sense, and pairs well with the fact that you have the RW lieutenant being, not a biker, but a vehicle. The DW lieutenant could well be an equivalent to that. But, consider that this would make the lieutenant able to use Wisdom of the Ancients. Might be a bit overpowered?

 

As for the auras, I would definetly like a rerroll 1s on ALL saves aura, to be honest. But I think that, the Terminators suffer more on mobility than resistance, so I'd much prefer the aura improve advance and charge rolls. But, if not that, then yeah, 1s on saves rerroll sounds great. Id make it for all saves though.

 

As for homers, I'd try to keep them similar to other homers in the game. That is, deep strike entirely within 6" of a bike, entirely beyond 6" of enemy models

[Interrogator Stobz]

FNP is mathematically a very good fix and gives the feel if the old invulnerable save from previous editions, I like it.