Auto include BA units

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I said they are good in melee versus lots of horde units (like guardsmen and cultists) which will have a hard time getting rid of them and if you can trap an enemy model it’s a big deal. Of course they shouldn’t be fighting units like genestealers. Edited April 16, 2019 by Black Orange

[Panzer]

But I don't think they are particularly good even against hordes. They are okay-ish. With a unit of 10 Infiltrators against a T3 Sv6+ horde of 30 models it'll take a whole 3 turns to get through on average (actually slightly more as they don't kill flat 10 models on average). More if they themselves suffer losses which is not unlikely.

You trap said horde unit but said horde unit also traps your Infiltrators. You both trade "chaff" units with eachother. It's not the worst thing, but also not "really good". It's okay.

[Spinsanity]

But I don't think they are particularly good even against hordes. They are okay-ish. With a unit of 10 Infiltrators against a T3 Sv6+ horde of 30 models it'll take a whole 3 turns to get through on average (actually slightly more as they don't kill flat 10 models on average). More if they themselves suffer losses which is not unlikely.

You trap said horde unit but said horde unit also traps your Infiltrators. You both trade "chaff" units with eachother. It's not the worst thing, but also not "really good". It's okay.

How long would said chaff guardsman unit manage to lock in combat a dread (pick whichever you prefer)? If you can intercept that chaff with your interceptors, I say it’s most likely an amazing tradeoff

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

@ sFPanzer you are missing the points I am making.

[The Unseen]

I still don't see how scouts aren't just better black orange.

Roughly same durability (actually favoring scouts, but whatever), double damage output, and similar ability to screen, either with a 12" bubble or covering twice as much area.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The Infiltrators fill the same role as Scouts but have power armor and push back enemy units arriving via reinforcements. They also automatically wound when they roll a 6 to hit with their bolters which is pretty good for Overwatch.

[Panzer]

 

But I don't think they are particularly good even against hordes. They are okay-ish. With a unit of 10 Infiltrators against a T3 Sv6+ horde of 30 models it'll take a whole 3 turns to get through on average (actually slightly more as they don't kill flat 10 models on average). More if they themselves suffer losses which is not unlikely.

You trap said horde unit but said horde unit also traps your Infiltrators. You both trade "chaff" units with eachother. It's not the worst thing, but also not "really good". It's okay.

How long would said chaff guardsman unit manage to lock in combat a dread (pick whichever you prefer)? If you can intercept that chaff with your interceptors, I say it’s most likely an amazing tradeoff

 

Just because there are units that can deal even less with chaff it doesn't make them good. There are also tons of units that can deal way better with chaff. That's like saying Bolter are really good because they are better at dealing with chaff than Melta. Different weapons, different tasks. However Infiltrators aren't good at dealing with anything. The only thing they can do is to infiltrate, but Scouts can do that as well for less points.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I have used scouts a lot and now using infiltrators can say based upon my experience the latter are far better. I see you are zoning in on dealing with chaff but as I have pointed out there is a lot more to it than just that one aspect.

[Panzer]

The Infiltrators fill the same role as Scouts but have power armor and push back enemy units arriving via reinforcements. They also automatically wound when they roll a 6 to hit with their bolters which is pretty good for Overwatch.

 

It's okay for Overwatch. IF they get charged a unit of 10 would deal only 3 AP0 wounds on average. That's about as good as two regular Flamer in a unit but only in overwatch. Two flamer have never stopped anybody from charging and are a pretty poor loadout for a unit of 10 costing 220p (and again they are just comparable for overwatch).

 

The 12" aura entirely depends on the opponent whether it's useful or not. If the opponent has deep striker that don't necessarily need to drop within 12" it's completely useless. If the opponent doesn't have any deep striker it's completely useless. If the opponent has weapons to spare to kill the Infiltrators because you lack more threatening infantry due their high cost it's completely useless.

There are actually only very few lists that rely on being able to drop within 12", against most others it's not better than the default 9".

 

The better armour is nice but we all know that Marines aren't exactly durable anyway. 3+ save or not. And in cover Scouts with camo cloak have the same save anyway.

They fill the same role as Scouts but much much worse for their points.

[t-dog1996]

I would have to agree with Panzer. The deepstrike denial on Infiltrators is nice but they seem very mediocre in all other respects. Troops are a tax in our army anyway because the Elites slot is so overloaded so you don't want to be spending too many points on them,  and Infiltrators are double the points of Scouts. Whether they are double as useful seems highly questionable. Infiltrators have no real melee capability - if you want anti-horde melee just take Jump Pack Death Company, they're cheaper, faster and have more attacks.

 

Their Marksman Bolt Rifles are ok but no AP and no way to get it. Intercessors have -1AP, Scouts can be given heavy bolters and missile launchers (also sniper rifles for mortal wounds) and Tactical Squads can be given all the special weapons. You're paying a premium pretty much solely for the deepstrike rule, and remember that only becomes relevant on turn two, by which time the Infiltrators could easily be dead since they're not especially durable. Seems to me you're paying loads for a decent but hardly gamebreaking rule and sacrificing tonnes of flexibility in the process. I'd just go with Scouts.

[Panzer]

I have used scouts a lot and now using infiltrators can say based upon my experience the latter are far better. I see you are zoning in on dealing with chaff but as I have pointed out there is a lot more to it than just that one aspect.

 

I'm not zoning into it. It's an example you gave and I replied to someone else talking about it.

You say there is a lot more to it but you don't tell us what exactly. I've looked at every aspect of them and they just aren't "really good". They are okay-ish at best and otherwise bad.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I play mainly ITC missions and board control is very important. I cannot think of many units arriving via reinforcements that don't want to drop in close. Where is the loss of flexibility coming from ?

[Dont-Be-Haten]

As a solid counter argument. For those of us who play more power level based games infiltrators are > scouts in every facet of the game.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Who here has actually used them for more than a couple games ?

[Panzer]

Yeah but that's like giving an argument for Narrative play or Open play. Most people just aren't playing like that so it's hard to use it as basis for discussions in a forum. 

[shanewatts]

Ok so as another person using infiltrators, I can say without a doubt that infiltrator's 12" denial bubble is superior to 2 scout squads vs GSC. The bubble is literally the difference in eating a charge or not.

 

Also vs small arms (such as bolters,) infiltrators are twice as durable as the same points in scouts. The opposite is true vs multi damage weapons, however if your opponent is shooting multi damage weapons at infiltrators/scouts, they aren't shooting at better targets.

[shanewatts]

Sidenote: I have not played against Orks yet while using infiltrators, but they also will have the same benefit over scouts. No turn 1 Da Jump charges, vs scouts which are going to allow it.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Yeah but that's like giving an argument for Narrative play or Open play. Most people just aren't playing like that so it's hard to use it as basis for discussions in a forum.

I mean I get it. But we are out there. I've actually moved away from matched play preferring power level now. And in that case they are superior in every aspect of the game.

[BrotherAetherick]

I'd be hesitant to call infiltrators auto includes. They have their uses and are nice against things like GSC, da jump, etc. But on the flip side against other armies like tau or guard they are are a waste of points when compared to scouts. 22 points a model makes every D2 weapon rejoice.

 

As for my opinion on auto includes.

 

Captain with Thunder hammer, SS and relic wings (the relic is quite possibly the best relic in the imperium)

Librarian dread

 

and to fit it into a detachment for CP as cheaply as possible

 

3x Scouts.

 

Honourable mentions:

 

Lemartes if using death company.
Some sort of ancient with standard of sacrifice.

Edited April 16, 2019 by BrotherAetherick

[t-dog1996]

Where is the loss of flexibility coming from ?

I mean in terms of who they can fight. Ultimately their weapons are S4 AP-0. Auto-wounding on 6s to hit is nice but it’s not the be-all-and-end-all. A Scout squad can be equipped with a Heavy Bolter for extra anti-horde or a missile launcher to threaten tanks. It gives you more options. Infiltrators are tougher than Tacs and Scouts but offensively they are less useful

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I never use Scouts for ranged fire power. If it works for you great. I don't how much of a difference one rocket is going to make though. I used to bring an HB for Hellfire strat but found it wasn't worth it for me .

 

If you are a tourney player you can’t really list tailor for specific opponents - Orks and GSC are very popular now and I don’t see that changing any time soon either.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Black Orange

[t-dog1996]

I never use Scouts for ranged fire power. If it works for you great. I don't how much of a difference one rocket is going to make though. I used to bring an HB for Hellfire strat but found it wasn't worth it for me .

 

If you are a tourney player you can’t really list tailor for specific opponents - Orks and GSC are very popular now and I don’t see that changing any time soon either.

 

Fair enough. Agreed, if Inflltrators work for you then keep using them and good luck :) For me, I don't use troop choices as heavy hitters, I just want something that can take objectives and annoy my opponent into targeting them instead of something more valuable. A missile launcher seems harmless enough until it takes 6 wounds off a Land Raider. Similarly the Hellfire strat with the heavy bolter can be a great distraction - mortal wounds should never be sniffed at. Also there's the Combat Knife and Bolt Pistol option. Paired with red thirst it's a bargain for 59 points, especially if it helps make up a battalion. This is what I was getting at when talking about flexibility. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Infiltrators have 2 base attacks, a bolt pistol and a bolter... so like I said the best of both worlds. I have a Vindicare for MW which is a better option imho.

[Xenith]

As you can see, OP, auto-include units are massively subjective, and outside a few models which are specific to this edition of the rules with this codex with this FAQ, there is no right answer.

 

Most of this depends on your meta. What is an auto include for someone that fights a lot of GSC and Orks is maybe not the same for someone that fights a lot of knights.

 

I'll end with my usual refrain that building an army based purely on the effectiveness of this codex will see you annoyed and upset later on. This is fine if you like to jump each edition to the strongest codex, but if collecting an army is the goal, then pick the models you like the most, the ones that inspire you. Paint them to the best of your ability. Name your characters. Play to win, but not at the expense of having fun.

 

Units will develop their own identity (some of mine seem to be cursed), and their effectiveness will improve as you gain experience.

 

I am firmly in the camp that an army made up of mediocre units played by an experienced person will usually win out against someone playing the latest netlist for the first time.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

To bounce off Xenith. You should only ever use net lists as a guide line for what you want to accomplish. People might find a combo you didnt think about, or offer a fresh change to something you are doing.

 

I find the Sanguinor makes almost every list I write up. I also love corbulo in combination with death company. It really is all subjective.