Possessed Uber-unit

[Cryptix]

After noticing that it's technically possible to get S10 Black Legion possessed through the Chosen of the Pantheon, I decided to tally up all the potential benefits for possessed across our books and found we could get:

- +4 STR from all 4 heralds in a sup com detachment, though you won't get loci bonuses

- +1 STR from a greater possessed

- rerollable D3 attacks from mutated Invigoration

- +2 to wound with 5+ 2 damage from Virulent Blessing and Soultearer Portent

- Rerolling 1s to hit and wound from Incursion

- 3+ invuln from Cursed Earth and Weaver of Fates (Chaos Familiar on Master of Possession from Smite)

 

So you can take 2 supreme command detachments (1 with all 4 heralds, 1 with 2 MoPs and a Dark Apostle, 20 Possessed, and a Greater possessed or two) and have a pretty damn decent deathstar. With the last detachment being maybe a red corsairs heretical 17 detachment with some screen clearing from havocs, it seems like it'd be pretty viable. Thoughts?

[MasterDeath]

I am currently building a Daemonkin Army to support my Nurgle Daemons. There a lot of synergies with Daemons and Black Legion are not neccesarily the best, as you have to burn CP to make them work. Mono-Gods works all the time. All the gods can deliver some good buffs for not only possessed, but also Cult of Destruction and Daemon Engines.

 

Some examples:

- Altar of Skulls: +1 A

- Feculent Gnarlmaw: +2 to save and advance/charge

- Crimson Crown: 6 to hit for extra attack (in addition to DttfE) also works in shooting

- Fight twice via Slaanesh Spell

- are affected by all the Loci 

 

To sum it up: The Chosen Pantheon is even more gimmicky then a regular Possessed/Daemon combination and burns CP. I would go for Mono God possessed.

[Skyrak Slaughterborn]

You forgot my personal favourite Fabius Bile. Possessed are probably the best option for his enhancements as they can tank the mortal wounds when you roll ones.

[Dallas Drake]

Don't forget the effects of the Daemonic Loci. As well as the God specific stratagems! For example, Black Legion Possessed with Chosen of the Pantheon can fight in the Psychic Phase using Slaanesh Hysterical Frenzy, fight normally in the melee phase and then fight again in the fight phase using Fury of Khorne, all while being buffed by all 4 God Loci/Heralds, Greater Possessed, Master of Possession, Dark Apostles, and VoTLW...

 

The Daemonkin Ritualists detachment (which you're going to use) has the stratagem Vessels of the Neverborn - this is a very improtant 1CP stratagem not just for the +1S but more importantly for the +1A. D3+1A is so much better than D3A.

 

Persaonlly, I think it's easy to go OTT and this is a mistake, relying on psychic powers is usually a recipe for disaster but when these things go off it can be fun. Re: Heralds, Tzeetnch, Khorne, and Slaanesh all have ways to keep up but I've found that once on the board the Poxbringer can struggle to keep up with the Possessed as they'll be ether advancing and charging (RC) or using Warptime, so it's best to run a Nurgle DP and use your Master of Possession to summon in one if needed. It's also a cool tactic to summon in a Gnarmawl if Nurgle as then you can fall back and charge or advance and charge if not RC. Honestly, the herald +1S is only really necessary against Knights or other high toughness units or if you're running Red Corsairs (or other Renegades) and don't get VoTLW. Infernal Power (WC6) from the MOP can also ensure you wound almost everything with mortal wounds on 6s too from Shepherd of the True Faith.

 

My recommendation for Possessed is to go mono God as opposed to pantheon and don't get too stary eyed over the strength buffs, they're nice but not as essential as actually ensuring you get into combat! Make sure you know how you're going to get your unit into melee with the right target(s). There's no point charging into bubble wrap all game, also remember in melee you're not as tough as you are to shooting. Miasma is the only -1 that works in melee and T4 W2 3+ 5++ (4++ with Cursed Earth) is not as tanky as you might think against the likes of GSC, Nids, etc.

Edited April 13, 2019 by Dallas Drake

[Lord Asvaldir]

Yeah I've tried using a big unit of 15 possessed in two games now, first time they got absolutely obliterated by necron destroyers first turn. You have to keep in mind that yes you can throw a ton of insane buffs on them, but if they are dead it won't matter. I'd rather stick to just a few buffs, maybe MoP with his spells, vessels of the neverborn stratagem and MoK for fight twice stratagem, then focus on giving them defensive buffs. For me that will probably be a dark apostle, as being khorne marked I can't use the nurgle spell.

 

I will mention though the second time I ran them they did a lot better. A Blood Angels player made the mistake of thinking he could wipe out possessed with his death company block, used their pre-game movement stratagem shenanigans to charge me turn one. Lost 5, then had them fight twice and murdered all 15 death company. 

[Kaldoth]

I think you'll best be served with chosen when combined with a delivery method. Even with the 5+ demon save they can't handle a buttload of shooting. I'm personally planning on running a unit of ten with a MoP and greater possessed in a termite drill with the AL trait. Depending on what army and what targets I'd be facing, it'll either be the termite drill popping up at 12 inches for the AL -1 trait/behind cover, or 9 inches if I want to roll for a lucky charge.

[General Strike]

I think it comes down to the same old advice, we can't make a unit of possessed that tough, so over saturate your opponent with scary things. I just did a quick list including three havok squads of autocannons and lascannons, a Daemon prince, two squads of 15 possessed. In between all of that is CSM squads, two MOP, Sorc, and Dark Apostle. I think they will have to choose between being blasted by Slaanesh Havoks or being crushed by the two blobs of powered up Possessed.

[Lord Asvaldir]

That sounds like a good way to split up target priority to me. Can't throw everything into targeting possessed if there's a lot of other significant threats on the board. And wow 30 possessed, I wish I had the models to run that many. 

[Closet Skeleton]

Except you can easily change your opponent's target priority with this helpful thing called warptime. You only need to leave a tail of a few models to benefit from cursed earth.

 

Who are you going to shoot? The 4++ blob that's 7+1d6" out of the deployment zone or the 3++ blob that's 14+2d6" forwards?

[Prot]

I think the possessed make for a fun game, but don't expect too much. A lot of good points above. I would add that I still am finding FnP from Slaanesh to be a larger factor.

 

The problem is the core unit in question is still... bad. It needs SO much support... powers, aura's, characters. If the stars align, then yes, I've hit hard with them. But it's a lot of work and even requires redundancy. It is a lot of fun though when things do come together!

[Dallas Drake]

The problem is the core unit in question is still... bad. It needs SO much support... powers, aura's, characters. If the stars align, then yes, I've hit hard with them. But it's a lot of work and even requires redundancy. It is a lot of fun though when things do come together!

 

I'd say that you're 100% correct with this, instead of buffing the Possessed stats up a little they've given them the option to be buffed to the max by several sources, and that is where the problems start. I was drawn in by the list of buffs they can get and excitedly put a Master of Possession, Dark Apostle, Herald, and Greater Possessed in my list to buff my 20 man Possessed squad. After playing several games what I found is that it's just too many points invested into a melee unit and psychic powers do fail, building around multiple rolls that can, (and will) fail, is a bad idea... but I still did it anyway, and alas, found it wanting.

 

No matter how hard we buff them they're still just an okay/good melee unit, not even the best we have. Some key things to remember about Possessed: 1) Without warptime they're too slow (even with Red Corsairs trait), you simply have to Warptime them (or use Forward Operatives if going Alpha). 2) Even with a 3++ save enemy shooting in most armies is so deadly now that they will go down. FRFSRF guard blobs, Primaris Agressors, Chaincanons & shoot twice strats, all of these (too numerous to list) will shred your Possessed. 3) Without Abaddon you suffer from Morale and this can hurt too.

 

With the fact that big buffed squads are too points intensive I now plan to run Possessed in three ways to see which works best;

 

1) 7 Possessed in a Dreadclaw with 2 GP and a MoP. Just shy of 500 points all in but capable of moving 15" + D6" advance, then next turn dropping 7 Possessed buffed by the MoP and 2 GP in enemy lines, before hitting a unit in melee itself, should work okay but nothing game changing. Dreadclaws are amazing, 15" move means you don't need Warptime or can Warptime up a big unit of 5 Spawn, a Maulerfiend, or whatever you want as a distraction. In addition, with fly, Dreadclaws can often jump over a screen and tag a tank or unit in the enemies rear that could well be shooting your Possessed next turn.

 

2) Squads of 10 on foot as Black Legion in a blanced list with lots of other threats and Ahriman. Ahriman Warptimes them up the board and If I get the chance to charge a good target I'll drop Chosen of the Pantheon on them and then get the MoP to use Incursion to summon a Slaanesh Herald. Now I can fight twice with Hysterical Frenzy, and get a 3++ from Ahriman and the MoP. If I don't get that chance then they can tank shots and charge into whatever, all the while Ahriman will not be wasted points and can be Smiting and using Doombolt and I won't summon a Slaanesh Herald, I'll summon a Gnarmawl for my Oblits instead.

 

3) With Cursed Earth and Infernal Power powers than don't target individual units (both effect all <Legion> Daemon units within 6") then going MSU as 5 man squads on foot isn't as mad as it sounds. 5 Possesesd and 1 Greater Possesed is 170 points and with a 4++ and re-roll 1s to hit and wound (6s = MW) they still do decent damage. You lose value on Vessles but now you just use Vessels for the 2-4 attacks at S7 on the unit in the most deadly combat.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Dallas Drake

[Furnace Lord]

This has been my problem. I want these guys to work so badly but anything I can think of to buff them just throws loads more points onto what is a mediocre unit. Especially since this Codex seems best geared towards threat saturation, expecting some dangerous things to die so others will get through, I find myself leaning towads more self-contained units.

 

Also did I mention snipers? Most of my opponents so far are Space Marines, those Primaris snipers and Vindicare assassins are so omnipresent it's hard to hide characters from them. Though I guess that's the new meta, but still adapting.

[Marshlands]

DG possessed will still do it better. Blades + vets + loci for mass damage and no need for strength buffs

[Lord Asvaldir]

I'm not so sure about that, there are a lot of buffs you can throw on say khorne mark possessed, not to mention fighting twice is quite powerful.

[Kaldoth]

So, after a little play testing with the termite drill plan I mentioned above, I can tell you the results were disasterous. The possessed, even when buffed to the max, have enough combat power for one good combat and that's about it. I threw them in a drill and popped them up against an IF tank like. Managed to take our two leman russes before they got shot off the board. I think the best bet for running possessed is ironically not as an offensive unit. The buffs you have to stack on them are all range dependant on a MoP or a GP. Throwing them up the field means you're taking those two units with them to an almost certain death. Where I think they will shine the most is as a counter charge or deep strike denial unit. Taking possessed in the form of a bomb unit is just too many points invested and more than likely lost. However, if you keep them back and take daemon engines, the MoP you took now has utility beyond buffing that single unit. I've been toying around with the idea of an Alpha Legion gun line, and a unit of possessed on turn 2 or 3 when the enemy gets to them will be far more effective than hurling them down the field turn 1 and hoping for a lucky charge.

[Prot]

I agree. I use them to counter charge. I keep them in Rhino's to keep them cheap, keep the buffers hidden behind the Rhino's, and throw something else in first, then wait for their ace unit to counter, then the Possessed can make some money back.

[Marshlands]

I'm not so sure about that, there are a lot of buffs you can throw on say khorne mark possessed, not to mention fighting twice is quite powerful.

Fighting twice / extra attacks/ crimson crown make world eaters tempting and definitely better at killing more models.

 

But most the other buffs are based around adding strength, which isn't necessary for DG, with +3 to wound they wound T9 on 2s with their base Strength and go up to damage 2 on a 3 and damage 3 on a 4 to wound

[Dallas Drake]

 

I'm not so sure about that, there are a lot of buffs you can throw on say khorne mark possessed, not to mention fighting twice is quite powerful.

Fighting twice / extra attacks/ crimson crown make world eaters tempting and definitely better at killing more models.

 

But most the other buffs are based around adding strength, which isn't necessary for DG, with +3 to wound they wound T9 on 2s with their base Strength and go up to damage 2 on a 3 and damage 3 on a 4 to wound

 

 

You're right about Death Guard being good, but some of their major issues are not mitigated and that is exactly what the Daemonkin Ritualist detachment and Master of Possession do pretty well. DG Possessed are good, but they suffer mainly from the the basic D3 attacks and no way to buff saves (why they don't just have DR now is totally beyond me and frankly lazy by GW), also the issue with DG is that at this point why not just take melee Plague Marines? They're cheaper, have 2 guranteed attacks with plague weapons, can throw greneades (blight bombardment), generate CPs in a batalion, etc. So then the Possessed there become kind of a meh choice outside of fluff and theme which doesn't even sit right as they're Nurgle Daemons that don't have DR. I know the PMs can't get Virulent Blessing but thats easily balanced by the other positives. Also, you're probably locked in to taking a Nurgle Daemons winged DP as the Poxbringer can have issues keeping up. I do think that a list with lots of Nurgle Possessed and Plaguebearers then Epidemius could do well, keep some points aside for Nurglings to score backfield and tie up shooting units early. I might even try a list of 20-30 Nurglings and a ton of Possessed for a laugh.

 

I think the issues with Possessed go deeper than just the unit, I think melee is strong but shooting is just the king of 8th. Look at tournament builds, most I see are focussed on psychics and shooting. My experiences of using them are that they're just too slow without warptime (and that can only be used on one unit), but when they hit combat they hit like a truck. I had too many buffs stacked up on them (Dark Apostle, MoP, GP, Sorcerer for Warptime). I think all they need is the Master of Possession in a Daemonkin Ritualists warband, MoP gives them re-roll 1s to hit and wound, +1 inv, and 6s wound = mortal wounds. If you want a Herald of whatever faction gives +1S and their locus. That's it. I will throw in a few Greater Possessed to ensure I make a battle forged detachment. But all they need is the MoP. The MoP is soo good. The +1 attack strat and a good attacks roll with Shepher of the True Faith means they can throw a bucket of mortal wounds on units, against Imperium it can get nasty with DTTFE) and GP are decent too but what I find is I've not played against anything that when I'm charging warrents that kind of attention.

 

In my next game I'm going to put two units in rhinos and deliver them that way, a MoP and two GP in there as well. Either Purge or Flawless Host traits to boost the attacks and Nurgle because they're Nurgle models and I want Virulent Blessing for D3 and mortal wounds (I know but it's my own renegade warband). I can see Flawless Host being good as when I've used Possessed against Imperium I really do notice those extra attacks.

Edited April 18, 2019 by Dallas Drake

[Marshlands]

 

 

 

I'm not so sure about that, there are a lot of buffs you can throw on say khorne mark possessed, not to mention fighting twice is quite powerful.

Fighting twice / extra attacks/ crimson crown make world eaters tempting and definitely better at killing more models.

 

But most the other buffs are based around adding strength, which isn't necessary for DG, with +3 to wound they wound T9 on 2s with their base Strength and go up to damage 2 on a 3 and damage 3 on a 4 to wound

You're right about Death Guard being good, but some of their major issues are not mitigated and that is exactly what the Daemonkin Ritualist detachment and Master of Possession do pretty well. DG Possessed are good, but they suffer mainly from the the basic D3 attacks and no way to buff saves (why they don't just have DR now is totally beyond me and frankly lazy by GW), also the issue with DG is that at this point why not just take melee Plague Marines? They're cheaper, have 2 guranteed attacks with plague weapons, can throw greneades (blight bombardment), generate CPs in a batalion, etc. So then the Possessed there become kind of a meh choice outside of fluff and theme which doesn't even sit right as they're Nurgle Daemons that don't have DR. I know the PMs can't get Virulent Blessing but thats easily balanced by the other positives. Also, you're probably locked in to taking a Nurgle Daemons winged DP as the Poxbringer can have issues keeping up. I do think that a list with lots of Nurgle Possessed and Plaguebearers then Epidemius could do well, keep some points aside for Nurglings to score backfield and tie up shooting units early. I might even try a list of 20-30 Nurglings and a ton of Possessed for a laugh.

 

I think the issues with Possessed go deeper than just the unit, I think melee is strong but shooting is just the king of 8th. Look at tournament builds, most I see are focussed on psychics and shooting. My experiences of using them are that they're just too slow without warptime (and that can only be used on one unit), but when they hit combat they hit like a truck. I had too many buffs stacked up on them (Dark Apostle, MoP, GP, Sorcerer for Warptime). I think all they need is the Master of Possession in a Daemonkin Ritualists warband, MoP gives them re-roll 1s to hit and wound, +1 inv, and 6s wound = mortal wounds. If you want a Herald of whatever faction gives +1S and their locus. That's it. I will throw in a few Greater Possessed to ensure I make a battle forged detachment. But all they need is the MoP. The MoP is soo good. The +1 attack strat and a good attacks roll with Shepher of the True Faith means they can throw a bucket of mortal wounds on units, against Imperium it can get nasty with DTTFE) and GP are decent too but what I find is I've not played against anything that when I'm charging warrents that kind of attention.

 

In my next game I'm going to put two units in rhinos and deliver them that way, a MoP and two GP in there as well. Either Purge or Flawless Host traits to boost the attacks and Nurgle because they're Nurgle models and I want Virulent Blessing for D3 and mortal wounds (I know but it's my own renegade warband). I can see Flawless Host being good as when I've used Possessed against Imperium I really do notice those extra attacks.

Sure - but thats more the question "are possessed good" - probably not and non of the buffs really address that, because they all just add cost so it's a false benefit really.

 

DG possessed have the advantage over plague marines of being slighty faster, daemons and potential for bonus damage. That can add up to a lot with things like epidimius and actually the tree - with warptime two movements of 7+d6 is actually pretty mobile!

 

But yeah I'd still just take plague marines for the reasons you listed, or better yet, an entirely different shooty army!

[Dallas Drake]

Is there an effective MEQ melee unit in 8th? I guess Wulfen are okay but even Death Company are meh. Big blobs of melee like Plaguebearers or Genestealers work as they are expendable and can pull off all the tricks you need to do in melee to survive (like taking hostages and consolidating into tanks/scary units etc).

 

Honestly, if Death Guard Possessed had DR and plague weapons (no reason why they shouldn't) they'd have a solid role and I'd personally use them instead of Plague Marines, but they don't.

 

I'll report back how my experimentation with Possessed goes but I'm probably playing as non-soup Nurgle Daemons for my next tournament.

[General Strike]

Zerkers are great.

[Prot]

Zerkers are great.

This is simply true. What other chaos unit gives you as much bang for the buck? The specialist Detachments have a buy in cost whereas with Zerkers they are very independent and you decide when to spend the CPs on demand. Sure they get better with auras but they aren’t terrible without the support whereas Possessed demand a lot if army dedication and MoPs.

[Lord Asvaldir]

I'm not sure possessed demand tons of support. Yes between herald locis, greater possessed, sorcerers, exalted champions and dark apostles you can throw a ton of extra buffs on possessed for a lot of points, but I feel like the only ones that are really required to make possessed function as a pretty decent melee block is a MoP, potentially in the daemonkin ritualists detachment. Those two buffs help mitigate the worse rule of possessed,  the d3 attack, and given my standard list now is a dual red corsairs battalion I'm hardly lacking in the CPs for that detachment. 

 

Yes, there's no doubt bezerkers may be more efficient for their pts. But I think it's safe to say possessed aren't a terrible unit anymore after a little investment to help keep them more effective. 

[Mekhitar]

The nice thing about possessed is they don’t (necessarily) instantly vanish the moment they leave combat. Zerkers really do.

 

That said, I love my paper tigers, so zerkers it is! ;)

 

I think for possessed, rather than kitting them out to do everything, figure out what spot they fill in the list and give them just the buffs necessary to fill that role. That way they don’t eat up too much of your design space... and points.

[Prot]

I'm not sure possessed demand tons of support. Yes between herald locis, greater possessed, sorcerers, exalted champions and dark apostles you can throw a ton of extra buffs on possessed for a lot of points, but I feel like the only ones that are really required to make possessed function as a pretty decent melee block is a MoP, potentially in the daemonkin ritualists detachment. Those two buffs help mitigate the worse rule of possessed, the d3 attack, and given my standard list now is a dual red corsairs battalion I'm hardly lacking in the CPs for that detachment.

 

Yes, there's no doubt bezerkers may be more efficient for their pts. But I think it's safe to say possessed aren't a terrible unit anymore after a little investment to help keep them more effective.

 

Well here’s where I draw my conclusions.... I’m going to guess about 20 games with old Renegades rules in effect for Zerkers and Possessed. Zerkers win by a country mile.

 

Post Vigilus... about 5 games of either/or Zerkers and Possessed.... Zerkers by a wide margin.

 

All I ask is you play 5 moderately competitive games with both units and let me know which you like better, both from a cost effective , and a micromanagement stand point.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Prot