Help - Legion Trait - The Scourge

[Bloodchild]

I was looking through the Legion Traits tonight, looking at the Scourge trait which reads...

 

You can re-roll one hit roll for an attack made by a model with this trait each time it shoots or fights.

 

Thats per model right? So a Havok Squad of 4 Lascannons are essentially re-rolling all failed hits? (seeing as they are 1 shot each)

and if 4 of them were armed with Autocannons (2 shots each) i can roll 4 misses? Unless i am supposed to roll them individually, re-rolling

1 miss per model?

 

 

 

 

 

[Panzer]

Already got discussed here:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355130-list-of-rules-issues-and-potental-issues-with-new-csm-rules/?p=5294348

 

and if 4 of them were armed with Autocannons (2 shots each) i can roll 4 misses? Unless i am supposed to roll them individually, re-rolling

1 miss per model?

 

 

If we go with that interpretation, then yes you'd have to roll any multi-shot weapon separately for each model.

Edited April 13, 2019 by sfPanzer

[Bloodchild]

Ok thanks for that... will wait for the FAQ before i get too excited as it seems way too powerful. I initially thought it was a cut and paste of the Salamanders trait until i re-read it, plus Overwatching on 5+... yep way too powerful.

[Chardun]

Do you own the book?   The wording is "You can re-roll one hit roll for an attack made by a model in a unit with this trait ...".  The emphasis is mine.

It's the Salamander trait in regards to hitting.  Instead of the wounding piece, you get Overwatch on a 5+ regardless of BS or any modifiers.

They're like a mix of Salamanders and Dark Angels.  Dark Angelic Salamanders...

 

Edited April 13, 2019 by Chardun

[Strazhakov]

Seems like a good trait for Lascannon Helbrutes.

[Xenith]

Seems like a good trait for Lascannon Helbrutes.

Indeed. Makes the multi melta almost not a terrible choice.

[Dumah]

Seems pretty clear cut to me - A model in a unit (singular, one) as opposed to each model. Easy.

[Bloodchild]

@Dumah, yes you are correct Edited April 14, 2019 by Bloodchild

[Bloodchild]

All in all im thinking this trait as is is strong but by no means game breaking.

 

Salamanders get to re-roll 1 hit and 1 wound roll (per unit)

 

Deathskulls get to re-roll 1 hit, 1 wound AND 1 damage roll (per unit) and a 6+ invulnerable

 

So no big deal for Chaos to get something half decent for a change.

[Bloodchild]

Do you own the book? The wording is "You can re-roll one hit roll for an attack made by a model in a unit with this trait ...". The emphasis is mine.

 

It's the Salamander trait in regards to hitting. Instead of the wounding piece, you get Overwatch on a 5+ regardless of BS or any modifiers.

 

They're like a mix of Salamanders and Dark Angels. Dark Angelic Salamanders...

 

 

Apologise, i quoted the wording from Battlescribe where i do my lists, so they need to amend that, i really only refer to the book for Stratagems

[Panzer]

Seems pretty clear cut to me - A model in a unit (singular, one) as opposed to each model. Easy.

 

"A model" doesn't necessarily mean "one model". A model just declares that the rule works model-wise, not unit-wise. There is no quantity in the meaning of "a".

So going with your argumentation one could say "A model in a unit, as opposed to one model".

[Dumah]

• used with units of measurement to mean one such unit.

  "a hundred"
• one single; any.

  "I simply haven't a thing to wear"

 

Straight from the dictionary for defining "a". One such unit of model, or one single model. 

Edited April 14, 2019 by Dumah

[Brother Aiwass]

So it can "any" model in a unit, right?

[Panzer]

 

• used with units of measurement to mean one such unit.

  "a hundred"
• one single; any.

  "I simply haven't a thing to wear"

 

Straight from the dictionary. One such unit of model, or one single model. 

 

 

How convenient to quote only the two things that support your point. Just for completeness sake though, let us quote the other meanings as well.

• not any particular or certain one of a class or group:

  "a man; a chemical; a house."

• a certain; a particular:

  "one at a time; two of a kind; A Miss Johnson called."

• another; one typically resembling:

  "a Cicero in eloquence; a Jonah."

• one (used before plural nouns that are preceded by a quantifier singular in form):

  "a hundred men"

  (compare hundreds of men );

  "a dozen times"

  (compare dozens of times ).

• indefinitely or nonspecifically (used with adjectives expressing number):

  "a great many years; a few stars."

[Dumah]

My argument stands that "a" is indeed a unit of measure. The rest is irrelevant. Your argument that there is no quantity in the meaning of "a" was successfully refuted. Edited April 14, 2019 by Dumah

[Brother Aiwass]

My argument stands that "a" is indeed a unit of measure. The rest is irrelevant. Your argument that there is no quantity in the meaning of "a" was successfully refuted.

 

 

 

• one single; any.

  "I simply haven't a thing to wear"

 

So it can or cannot be "any" model?

[Dumah]

Any single model from a unit, yes. But only that one.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

"A man can vote for whom he pleases."  Only one man can vote?

 

Now, I think your interpretation is likely the RAI, but there are 2 grammatically correct ways of interpreting the phrase.  It could be either.  Part of the confusion is the "its" before "shoots or fights" - "it" could be the model or the unit.  Saying that there is only one correct way to read it is wrong. 

Edited April 14, 2019 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Dumah]

If we understand the spirit of what's intended, we should go with the perfectly valid interpretation that supports it. Don't be that guy.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I'm not being that guy.  I just don't like people saying that the rule is clear when it isn't clear at all.  And I do find it funny that I've been involved in this discussion in at least 3 other threads, where:

 

- in one (this one) I was arguing against the rule "clearly saying" "a model" means "1 model";

- in two where I was arguing against the rule "clearly saying" "a model" means "each model".

 

To me, if two mutually contradictory meanings can be reasonably argued, it certainly isn't clear. :)

[Dumah]

Fair enough. Eye of the beholder.

[Minsc]

Gonna play it as a single re-roll to hit per unit, until it is FAQ:ed otherwise. (Which I doubt it will be.)

One re-roll per model is just super-strong, way way stronger than similar traits, such as Salamanders

 

[Trevak Dal]

They're like a mix of Salamanders and Dark Angels. Dark Angelic Salamanders...

 

 

...Dark Frogs? Angel Toads?

[Panzer]

 

They're like a mix of Salamanders and Dark Angels. Dark Angelic Salamanders...

 

...Dark Frogs? Angel Toads?

 

Abyss Lizards? :P