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Any reason not to just use Hellfire rounds always?


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11 replies to this topic

#1
SwashBuccaneer

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Started playing games with my guys finally and having a hard time wrapping my head around SIA.

Seems like there's no reason to use anything but Hellfire and just throw so many wounds at a target.

When is it better to use Kraken or Vengeance?

#2
GrinNfool

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There are some charts around somewhere but generally when in doubt shoot hellfire especially vs T4+ in general.  The main times to use kraken is range or vs 2+ saves that vengeance would be out of range for assuming it isn't a 2+ thats in cover too, and vengeance should be used vs 2+ saves or vehicles or vs t3 if it has better than a 6+ save.  Guns having a natural AP can change some of that but I can't be bothered to do all the math for that atm so the above guidlines should give you most of what you need.  Basically hellfire vs t4+ veangeance vs t3 with better than a 6+, vehicles or 2+ saves,  Kraken vs things you need range, or 2+ saves (not 1+ saves) that vengeance is out of range for or t3 4+ or better that vengeance is out of range for.

 

Also says you are in Denver if you are send me a message I'm in Denver too.


Edited by GrinNfool, 15 April 2019 - 01:01 AM.

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#3
Qui-Gon

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Special Issue Ammunition is a tricky thing that takes understanding of the odds of the dice and situational awareness of what you have at your disposal and what the target is.

 

Against T3 opponents, Hellfire rounds are by and large unnecessary, since you are already wounding on 3s to start.

If you are going against T4 opponents, you need to know range and volume of shots, and if you have stratagem support. If you can throw out an appropriate Doctrine stratagem to augment you to go to wounding on 3s, then the principle follows my above point. However, if your opponent is in cover with a 2+ effective save, and you're still only wounding on 4s and cannot manage to drop the save back to a 3+ then yes, use hellfire as the AP is irrelevant.

For higher toughness things, against monsters it is normally advisable to use hellfire, though occasionally getting vengeance rounds with a doctrine is terrifying. (Especially on Intercessors with a possible AP -3 boltgun fire from a teleportarium strike.



#4
BrotherAetherick

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You always choose the ammo that would give you rapid fire where where you would not get rapid fire otherwise.

 

I think there's a few breakpoints in math where kraken or vengeance (if in rapid fire) would outperform hellfire even if they T4-T7. 

 

If your target is T4 and has a 2+ save (but not 1+ as noted above), then its better to actually kraken round (or vengeance if in rapid fire)

 

If your target it T5-7 and has a 2+ save (but not 1+) then vengeance (if in rapid fire) out performs hellfire as well. Kraken at these toughness levels will under-perform vs hellfire (if the poison works, i.e not a vehicle).


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#5
SwashBuccaneer

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Wow there's definitely a lot going 9n behind the scenes with SIA. I might be in over my head with this as a first army. :D

#6
Mobius0288

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Another way to look at it is what will force their worst save and still give you the best wounding chance... largely thinking about invul saves. No need to use vengeance rounds (-2 AP plus gun stats) on something with a 3+ invul if Hellfire rounds will do the job. Hellfire rounds are custodes worst nightmare, for example.

 

This may help if you haven't looked already: https://1d4chan.org/...ssue_Ammunition

 

Important points to think about, some noted above already:

#1 Most amount of highest AP shots... usually kraken

#2 Force high invuls with the most amount of shots

#3 Intercessors can usually hellfire anything with a glorious -1AP by default

#4 Kraken or Vengeance vehicles if you have too (and a tempest shell for good measure)

#5 Never hellfire on T3 targets, always Kraken or Vengeance

#6 Dragon fire doesn't ever have a required use/situation


Edited by Mobius0288, 15 April 2019 - 01:56 PM.

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Deathwatch | Imperial Fist | Imperial Knights | Skitarii | Inquisition


#7
HighMarshalAmp

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The most basic way to look at it is dice, really.

You roll to hit, you roll to wound, they roll to save.

If you need a 3 to hit, a 4 to wound and they need a 3 to save, that's 4/6*3/6*2*6.
That's about a 1/10 chance to cause a lost wound with that shot.

Anything that makes that final number higher is good. SIA provides multiple modifiers that you can choose from. The charts tell you which is best against what and can save you time, but facing a huge, colorful spreadsheet when you're only just starting out can make you forget that it's just a basic question of probability.

ETL_Medal_01.gifETL_2018_Medal_04_ETL_Magister.gifETL_2018_Medal_01_Custos_Fidei_04.gif


#8
Mr4Minutes

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Just remember: never use Dragonfire rounds. Ever.
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#9
SwashBuccaneer

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Yeah I know just enough to not even think about Dragonfire. All my guys dumped their Drsgonfire magazines down a deep hole when they made planet fall. :D

Good info again guys. I have just been throwing Hellfire rounds as my go to just to put a ahit ton of wounds on stuff but the other rounds seemed useful (not you Dragonfire) so I wasn't sure when they picked up.

The guys I've played (Tyranids) thought Hellfire were the best period but i was noticing certain things just not wanting to go down despite throwing 20 wounds at it due to saves etc.

I did find a new chart for Bolters and Bolt Rifles that I'm going to print off as it has a range indicator on it too.

I'll try following it the next games I play as the guys I've been playing so far are helpful and don't mind being a newb.

One game he wanted to try a competitive Nids Kraken list. Was looking bad first round and theres a metric assload of Stealers in my backfield on a Beach Head mission from CA2018 (one with just 3 objectives on the board with opponent one being worth 3).

I still lost but was able to push out and erase mass quantities of bugs and score some points.

Kinda went off topic there but oh well. Lol

Edited by SwashBuccaneer, 15 April 2019 - 02:07 PM.


#10
Kallas

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Genestealers are a prime example of "Default to Hellfire."

 

T4 with a 5++, so AP is irrelevant and anything other than Hellfire is only wounding on a 4+; so Hellfire gets huge mileage there.


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#11
SwashBuccaneer

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Ah I see it's starting to make more sensd reading what you guys are saying and seeing the charts too.

I deleted so many of his squads between hellfire and Frag Cannons. He wasn't liking when the frags deleted like 18 dudes on a charge in on overwatch. :D

Tweaked my list and dropping my old primaris Kill Team and putting another vet squad in with 2 more cannons. Those guns too good to not use more of.

#12
GrinNfool

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Oh geez vs nids haha ya my wife hates to play my DW with her nids.  Makes any of her big bugs pointless, and melee chargers do not like frags.  Vs nids in general though hellfire is best due to either high toughness or low armor or invuln.  Would definitely make sense if he though hellfire was always the best, since thats what most people would use vs nids on most targets.






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