Khorne Berserkers in non-World Eaters army

[Furnace Lord]

I'm interested in running Berserkers in my Black Legion army. My plan is to put a squad in a transport, add a sorcerer because Black Legion, and drive towards things for ultra-violence. I had three questions:

 

1. I can take a Rhino, or a Termite and just not deep strike it. How vulnerable is the Rhino these days?

 

2. Sorcerer: It seems like the go to powers are Warptime and Prescience. Would you go with these, and would Warptime make a deep striking Termite more desirable?

 

3. Weapons: I understand one build is Chainaxe and chainsword. Bit of a newb, does this just give them a single bonus attack with the sword while all others are axe attacks? What do you like for the champ? I was thinking powerfist plus chainsword?

[Panzer]

I'm interested in running Berserkers in my Black Legion army. My plan is to put a squad in a transport, add a sorcerer because Black Legion, and drive towards things for ultra-violence. I had three questions:

 

1. I can take a Rhino, or a Termite and just not deep strike it. How vulnerable is the Rhino these days?

 

2. Sorcerer: It seems like the go to powers are Warptime and Prescience. Would you go with these, and would Warptime make a deep striking Termite more desirable?

 

3. Weapons: I understand one build is Chainaxe and chainsword. Bit of a newb, does this just give them a single bonus attack with the sword while all others are axe attacks? What do you like for the champ? I was thinking powerfist plus chainsword?

 

1. Depends on your local meta, but T7 Sv3+ is pretty much the standard for tanks so expect it to die in 1-2 rounds if the opponent wants to kill it. Target saturation is key as always.

 

2. Iirc you can't use Warptime on a unit that arrived from reserves that turn. It's still a great power to use though.

 

3. You're right. The chainsword gives one additional attack with the chainsword profile. All the other attacks you can do with any melee weapon the model is equiped with (which would of course be the Chain axe in this case).

[Strazhakov]

I'm interested in running Berserkers [...]. My plan is to put a squad in a transport, add a sorcerer...

 

 

That's one brave Sorcerer..

[Furnace Lord]

 

 

I'm interested in running Berserkers [...]. My plan is to put a squad in a transport, add a sorcerer...

 

That's one brave Sorcerer..

Black Legion. The Long War is all that matters :)

[Squike]

I have found that my Rhino normally dies turn 1, it is however my only vehicle currently so there isn't the target saturation that will keep it alive yet, i plan for another rhino and a predator or two to keep it company to make it less of a target first turn target. I normally have an exalted champ with them to get the re-roll wounds I also try to have a lord on a bike follow with the rhino too, as he gives re-roll 1's to hit, and make him your warlord give him first among traitors and the bezerkers are generating extra attacks on a 5+

[Closet Skeleton]

You can put your berserkers in a nurgle rhino as out of line of sight as possible, next to a Dark Apostle with Benediction of Darkness, follow it with a nurgle jump pack sorcerer with warp time and miasma of pestilence. That's a 24+d6"-3 to hit rhino after popping smoke.

[Mekhitar]

If you have a couple daemon engines stomping around, chances are they will be the things getting shot at. If not, double or triple up on your rhinos. Just one won’t last.

 

The smoke will help keep it alive for a turn, which should be all you need.

[Syrakul]

Loosing the first turn will ruin that hope to pop smoke/cast prayer on rhino though.

 

Multiple rhinos, each with decent similar unit inside, as opponent gets to know what is where so will target scarier one.

And other targets like CC contemptors as support, to spread enemies AArmor fire.

 

If you do that, Rhinos have a good chance to survive, I actually like to put combi-meltas on mine as once the unit is deployed you are up close and can still present a threat/do some work, besides catching the overwatch for the zerkers.

[Guiltysparc]

I might suggest an exalted champion rather than a sorocer...more fluffy and the rerolls to wound will be helpful.  Spend 1 CP for Veterans of the Long War to add 1 to their wound rolls, plus rerolls from the Champion, plus fighting twice because blood for the blood god...pretty tasty!

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Loosing the first turn will ruin that hope to pop smoke/cast prayer on rhino though.

 

If you mean the Dark Apostle's new prayers, those happen at the beginning of the round (not turn) so it works even if you go second.  That said, the best way to protect a rhino from the other side going first is to deploy it outside of LOS from the stuff most likely to kill it.

[Closet Skeleton]

 

Loosing the first turn will ruin that hope to pop smoke/cast prayer on rhino though.

 

If you mean the Dark Apostle's new prayers, those happen at the beginning of the round (not turn) so it works even if you go second.  That said, the best way to protect a rhino from the other side going first is to deploy it outside of LOS from the stuff most likely to kill it.

 

I didn't notice that.

 

Useful for combining warp-sight plea with punishing volley as well then.

[Mallios]

Hide the rhino behind something bigger, like a LoS.

[Dallas Drake]

Put them in a Dreadclaw. Not so good for the Sorcerer if it blows up and you roll a 6 but I'm sure Khorne would lols.

[MegaVolt87]

One rhino is no good, you need at least 3 to have any hope, seems unchanged edition to edition. Before my IW all my SM and CSM lists were based around mechanized within rhino's. You would be better off using the rhino points to make the unit bigger and foot slog if you are taking only one rhino. 

Edited April 16, 2019 by MegaVolt87

[Syrakul]

I started thinking about the value of a Rhino instead of 5 1/5 more CSM.

Lets say it has 2 combibolters/havoc launcher vs 6 more marines champ with combi-bolter, each 80 pts

Same save, better toughness, more wounds (but on one target), faster, nearly same shooting (with beta bolter rule) can’t really hide or get cover save. Can carry stuff up the board!

Lose some potential troops scoring chances but could be a case for both.

[Panzer]

Also can't really score since it's just a single model and can't climb ruins and such. ^^

[MegaVolt87]

I started thinking about the value of a Rhino instead of 5 1/5 more CSM.

Lets say it has 2 combibolters/havoc launcher vs 6 more marines champ with combi-bolter, each 80 pts

Same save, better toughness, more wounds (but on one target), faster, nearly same shooting (with beta bolter rule) can’t really hide or get cover save. Can carry stuff up the board!

Lose some potential troops scoring chances but could be a case for both.

 

Except singular vehicles suck any edition (except knight, LoW etc). Go all in or not at all with rhino's, 3 is good for the troops or take the bodies to soak enemy shooting. 

[Syrakul]

As a comparison in a vacuum it could then be said the rhino takes different types of enemy fire. I agree a singular hard target becomes a magnet for heavy weapons. Of course Your other targets could be other pressing vehicle targets like contemptors or daemon engines, in which case you could potentially have one transport.

 

If you are talking small points games a single rhino can be funny if you position it to be out-of-sight or out of reach of the enemies fewer eligible weapons, and watch him twist his game plan attempting to re-maneuver to get a shot. Just anecdotal though, still not recommended.

[MegaVolt87]

A rhino is still easier to kill than a dread or daemon engine, you would still need multiple rhino's regardless. Being CSM a rhino is going to have some nasty melee unit like berserkers  or combi/special chosen, x2 rotor CSM's etc. Small games sure, one rhino why not but normal games no way it will work with just one. 

[Tallarn Commander]

I too have never had much luck with solo Rhinos.

 

But I've had good results with 2 Rhinos if I'm running 3 or more Daemon Engines. I've found that then there is usually enough threat saturation to allow the Rhinos to live.

[Doom Herald]

1 Rhino works well in small point matches. I find they generally pour more firepower at my Daemon Prince. Really all your other options are a much greater point investment and probably occupy a force organization slot. If your primary strategy is slinging your berzerkers into battle, I would suspect you either will have multiple units or are playing a smaller point game. Either way, I don't see why using Rhinos wouldn't suffice. Remember, if your using a transport, you only have 10 or less berzerkers in that unit. Also, consider the Rhino is the fastest option, barring deepstrike.

 

As far as the unit itself, I like to run 8 with a Dark Apostle (for failed wound re-roll) and Exalted Champ (for re-roll failed hits). These with berzerkers shred things. I use Rhinos in small point games for this group and it works fine. Remember to charge with the Rhino first to sink the overwatch fire. If you are in a bigger point game, I might consider using Rhinos with 10 man squads and use something tougher for the HQs group.

 

I might try something like this:

(×2) 10 Berzerkers in Rhino

(×1) 8 Berzerkers + Buffing Characters in Landraider

(×1) Jump Sorcerer or Winged Daemon Prince with Warptime

 

>Move vehicles to target(s)

>Follow with Psyker

>Warptime Landraider ahead

>Move up as necessary

>Deploy squads within charging range

>Charge with vehicle

>Charge with infantry

>Fall back with vehicle

[Sgt. Blank]

Re: 1: Rhino isn't invincible but tough enough to get your Berzerkers close enough to do some damage. As others have said, multiple threats is key - a single Rhino will get all the anti-tank fire and die pretty predictably, while other armor/high toughness threats will force the opponent to prioritize targets. If the Rhino gets a turn of movement, it's generally filled it's primary role.

 

Re: 2 unless it's a smaller game, i'd suggest considering characters to support the whole army. Berzerkers hit pretty hard on their own but Warp Time helps their mobility, which isn't stellar.

 

It may be worth noting that the Dark Apostle has changed in the recent update and is no longer quite as good of a ride along HQ for Berzerkers. The re-roll misses ability was amazing but it doesn't work automatically any more and it appears that he can't use prayers while in a transport.

 

Re: 3 chain axe/chain sword is nice and would be the way I'd build the standard Berzerkers. Power fist is decent but not quite effective as it used to be, units with 3+ armor still get a save, the randomized wounds can be great if underwhelming and the miss rate combined with no Death to the False Emperor can hurt at times. It is the best option to down high Toughness targets, but Veterans of the Long Way strategum is a great way to make Berzerkers situational effective against tough enemies.

[MegaVolt87]

I too have never had much luck with solo Rhinos.

But I've had good results with 2 Rhinos if I'm running 3 or more Daemon Engines. I've found that then there is usually enough threat saturation to allow the Rhinos to live.

I assume you are using cultists as well and attacking me with two rhino units. I will make sure one of those units is walking and has taken a few casualties so I don't have two full strength melee/ short ranged shooty units in my grill, your engines can't score objectives I believe (?) Point is one rhino unit won't make it in a normal game regardless.

 

EDIT Agree with you on the whole, at least two with more vehicles at a minimum.

Edited April 18, 2019 by MegaVolt87

[Doom Herald]

So, unless there's FAQ/erata I'm missing, you can start with an Apostle outside the transport, use the prayer for -1 to be hit, then embark into the transport. Then move with transport and a jump Sorcerer to cast Warptime. I think someone else suggested using a Nurgle transport and Sorcerer you can use the power to give a further -1 to be hit. -2 to be hit on turn 1 makes a Rhino a little more viable.

[Panzer]

Sure that's perfectly fine and unless there's some Vindicare that rolls hot the Apostle should be fine as long as at least the Rhino and the embarked units lives.