GT Win

[CrystalSeer]

So in light of the recent mono-dex win for Thousand Sons in the Dallas GT, does this change anyone's perceptions of the force or how they intend to play? 

[Ciler]

I wasn't even aware of it. Is there a report somewhere, lists ?

[Closet Skeleton]

I wasn't even aware of it. Is there a report somewhere, lists ?

 

Found this after a quick search

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/ThousandSons/comments/bdbr3s/mathew_allee_wins_dallas_open_gt_tsons_list_inside/

 

 

Mathew Allee's Tsons

Thousand Sons Battalion

• Demon Prince - Warp Bolter, Wings, Talons

• Exalted Sorcerer - 2x Power Swords, Warpflame Pistol

• 5x Rubric Marines, Warpflame Pistol

• 5x Rubric Marines, Warpflame Pistol

• 5x Rubric Marines, Warpflame Pistol

Thousand Sons Battalion

• Terminator Sorcerer, Stave, Combi-Bolter

• Terminator Sorcerer, Stave, Combi-Bolter

• 5x Rubric Marines, Warpflame Pistol

• 5x Rubric Marines, Warpflame Pistol

• 5x Rubric Marines, Warpflame Pistol

Thousand Sons Battalion

• Ahriman

• Demon Prince - Warp Bolter, Wings, Talons

• 5x Rubric Marines, Warpflame Pistol

• 30x Tzaangors

• 28x Tzaangors

 

That's pretty hardcore. I assume he teleports the tzaangors offensively while mostly relying on having enough rubric squads to hold down all the objective.

[WarriorFish]

What about what powers his models had? Very much feels like a tourney list to me, so I don't think it changes much for "normal" lists :confused: It's still great that he won though, get a bit of kudos for the codex!

[yergerjo]

It's a rather lame list. I wonder how/what he did to deal with any armor.

 

I'm guessing an infantry heavy meta, which could only serve to boost survivability of Rubrics.

 

I regularly run 30 rubrics and 30 Tzaangors with success, but I've got Predators for armor. PLUS the lack of aura abilities from the Termie Sorcs limits their use...imho.

[Skerr]

I think it's a great list and glad to see it did well. I too am curious about the anti tank. The reddit thread said there was a lot of LOS blocking terrain which is preferable for us, IMO. Edited April 19, 2019 by Skerr

[Prot]

Yea when I saw that win in my head I was doing the countdown to this forum topic! Lol

 

So I’m just gonna night to say this changes nothing for me, but 100% honest.... nothing in Tournaments changes what I play personally, I just become more aware of what I face.

 

That said it’s the type of list that really is good to give some archetypes a lot of difficulty and it obviously has to be well played. I think it dodged a few bullets and I imagine it would be a very difficult repeat win. That’s great news though. I’m happy for the guy and the list looks like a very fun thing to try.

 

The anti armour would come in the form of mortal wounds and VotLW.

 

Wildcard Culexus are really difficult but the Tzaangors help.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Prot

[Panzer]

One big advantage of that list is that it makes the opponents anti-tank less valuable and I guess after the Tzaangors are gone the anti-horde shooting as well since that usually has only D1. Elite-infantry lists aren't really a thing on most tournaments because regular hordes usually deal with those well enough already so nobody packs lots of wepaons aimed to deal with those.

[Ciler]

It's a rather lame list. I wonder how/what he did to deal with any armor.

One possibility is that he simply... didn't deal with it, in so far as he had enough bodies to just soak up any damage without losing the field until his tzaangors could get in melee with whatever target.

 

The other option is that he dealt with armour with the tzaangor. 30 of those on the charge will shred through pretty much anything (7W on T7,Sv3+) that isn't T8, and that's without Cycle of Slaughter (2CP, fight again). They'll definitely knock a predator off the table for instance.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I don’t see how anyone can call this is a lame list. kSons are great this edition.

[yergerjo]

I don’t see how anyone can call this is a lame list. kSons are great this edition.

I meant lame as in boring. I can easily see how it may succeed under good circumstances. I was also happy to see someone actually have Rubrics on the board instead of pure Tzaangor spam with some Princes and Sorcs. I wouldn't enjoy playing as it, because I strongly dislike MSU play for any army.

 

I did not mean to denigrate the list or the player, we all have our preferred style of play and understanding of "fluff".

 

I know it would not succeed in my local meta, but with a simple focus on objectives and ITC play/rules it could be judged solid to great in that environment.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That list is a tool box I’m certain it could hold its own in any meta. It always makes me chuckle how quickly some are to dismiss a GT win and try to play it down. There is nothing wrong at all with MSU either.

[Panzer]

It's not a toolbox at all. It has lots of redundancy and target saturation. It benefits from the meta concentrating on hordes and super tough vehicles so there aren't nearly as many things dangerous for Rubric Marines as there could be. If we had a meta with strong elite-infantry lists then there'd be a lot more Plasma and similar which would wreck all those Rubric units.

People aren't "just" dismissing GT wins. People are dismissing singular results because they statistically have no meaning. We can talk again if we see such a list being successfull repeatedly. Then we know it's actually good in the current meta.

[Heliomanes]

There's an interesting interview with him here: https://soundcloud.com/user-909923273/tizcan-podcast-matthew-allee-dallas-open-2019-interview

Pretty much answers most of your questions on how he made the list work.

[Panzer]

A 42 minute interview and not in text form ... eh maybe someone will post the actual interesting stuff here lol

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

At sfPanzer you are the guy who advocated using DMC for Rubrics. :D

 

I am curious to know how many major events you have won.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Black Orange

[Panzer]

At sfPanzer you are the guy who advocated using DMC for Rubrics.

*I am one of the guys

 

Also I'm not really advocating anything. I'm just repeating what's getting done elsewhere. As far as TSons go I'm merely an interested outsider who reads a lot.

 

I am curious to know how many major events you have won.

What does it matter? If I had won hundreds of events or none, nothing would change about what I wrote above. So this question is just to undermine my argument without bringing your own and to make yourself feel better. Should I take it as personal attack then? Nah I won't do that. Don't be mad just because I didn't accept your friend request.

Edited April 20, 2019 by sfPanzer

[WarriorFish]

Play nice please MSU is effective currently for Marines (who need the help), and I don't feel the SRC is that amazing such that losing it is a huge deal? The squads aren't there to be dealing lots of damage after all, at least individually.

 

That's why I said it's a tourney list - it doesn't change much for most of us because most of of our games aren't tournament ones There's too many variables at play to say with certainty on a list either way, but we can analyse it for ideas and such all the same. While I'm no tournament player I do understand that always there's a lot more at play than just the list; a smart player will play the meta as well as the game for example.

 

I'd imagine it's a necessity when you're not using a powerful codex, but it's always a factor in games conscious or not - just that at the highly competitive games you've got to be better at it right? Personally I like the idea that a list that can win somewhere might struggle elsewhere, helps keep things interesting

 

I'm not one for MSU much, but I have been experimenting with it a little bit lately albeit for low point games where there's not much room. I will be using it for my TSons also even if that's a requirement to get them on the table sooner

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

MSU is very effective for power armor due to low foot print and morale checks. Also if you play PL it’s huge. I can see taking larger squads of Rubrics though due to AiD.

 

"It's not a toolbox at all."

 

Daemon Princes are excellent in melee and the psychic phase in general. Smite pretty much hurts everything. This is a versatile list.

 

"If we had a meta with strong elite-infantry lists then there'd be a lot more Plasma and similar which would wreck all those Rubric units."

 

What if’s are great aren’t they but in this case doesn’t really mean much.

 

"People aren't "just" dismissing GT wins. People are dismissing singular results because they statistically have no meaning."

 

That area is quite competitive. Nick Rose and Josh Death are both on ETC teams and regularly do well at major events. This wasn’t an RTT at your FLGS. I wouldn’t dismiss it straight out of hand.

Edited April 20, 2019 by Black Orange

[BoomWolf]

The HQ choices of htis list puzzle me a bit...

 

2 termi sorcerers, without scarabs/brick? who are they supporting-the goats?

Why the exalted over a regular sorc? other than seer's bane I've never found the desire to actually run an exalted compared to other HQs.

 

With 13 powers coming from HQs, and 7 more from rubrics (gosh darn that's alot of rubric squads)-how exactly are the spells distributed?

How are they used?

 

 

This list, unfortunatly, is quite unreadable. for a psyker heavy army not knowing the psyker game makes it nigh-impossible to tell how the list actually plays out.

[Ciler]

2 termi sorcerers, without scarabs/brick? who are they supporting-the goats?

Why the exalted over a regular sorc? other than seer's bane I've never found the desire to actually run an exalted compared to other HQs.

In both cases it may be for the mobility ? The termi socs can deep strike and the exalted can take a disc (which the regular one can't do).

[Prot]

Termie Sorcs are more powerful, survivable and flexible than normal Sorcs and even Exalted Sorcs. The familiar, combined with +1 on tests ( WL trait) makes for a great discount character.

 

I always liked them but felt a little truer to the background with Exalted Sorcs, but I know that’s not optimal.

 

Typically you are looking at a Smite Storm here with strong placement of Termie Sorcs. Cabal becomes more playable here too because of all the Sorcs and CPs. Again though the way Assassins are being used now this would be a risky list and have to rely on goats to rush the Culexus’.

[Raven1]

My absolute favorite part of this list is how puzzling it is. Everyone seems to be How? What? Why? And I think that's great.

 

I listened to an interview with him and it's basically point denial. With so many Rubrics he can hold his backfield and midfield objectives. He kept those out of LOS as much as possible, and held his Tzaangors in deepstrike (at least one squad) with mostly characters many opponents had nothing or little to shoot on their turn. Now with the new anti-character GSC/Space Marine models/rules this list does much worse but he dodged a number of opponents. Also like to lock certain things in combat with Rubrics as it can be tough to kill a rubric in combat but it isn't killing anything either so the shooting that suck in melee lock those with rubrics.

 

The exalted sorcerer would be buffed by Boon of Change and he would use Seer's bane buffed up he can almost take on Knights. 5/6 attacks at least S8 so wounding on 4's or 3's with veterans, 2's with VotLW and Diabolic Strength and if he gets the right boon D3+1 wounds per attack. I'm not sure he was using Death Hex but he could remove a knight's invulnerable save too.

[Quixus]

It's not a toolbox at all.

Mortal wounds seem to be the swiss army knife of this edition and the list can deal lots of them.

 

@Raven1 What "new anti-character GSC/Space Marine models/rules" are you talking about

[Panzer]

 

It's not a toolbox at all.

Mortal wounds seem to be the swiss army knife of this edition and the list can deal lots of them.

 

 

Yeah but if you use the same tool for everything you don't have a toolbox ... just a very versatile tool. :P