Tactics Discussion: Knight Household Force

[Sherrypie]

Also, Mandragola: that multiplication thing was fixed in the FAQ and it is the number of weapons in the banner that counts.

[Mandragola]

Cool about the FAQ fixing that issue. Annoying that the Molech book came out with the same error in it, even as they attempted to use it to sort out the knight rules. And coordinated fire still appears to only apply to one gun.

 

There are plenty of other errors or absences. For example there’s a large amount of confusion over whether you can mix lances of knights and maniples of titans in the same army. The book just doesn't say. The consensus that I’ve seen is that you can’t, but that you can probably reinforce a force including lances with individual titans. And of course there are the missing house-specific stratagems that only appear on the cards.

 

On coordinated fire, there’s nothing that I can see to stop a single knight from doing it. Got one last knight warden in a banner? Have it do coordinated fire and send 8 S4 shots at something’s shields.

 

Besides the knights there are plenty of other issues. The Molech writers don’t seem to have understood that you get a Princes Seniores in each maniple, for example. That’s the only way the Vulcanum trait to get a second Seniores (with a huge penalty if one of them dies) makes sense. Otherwise they’re trying to give them a bonus that’s actually a nerf.

 

In general, the Legio special rules are incredibly hit and miss. The traits vary enormously in power. Is that a deliberate thing to show that some legios are just better than others, or do they actually think the Atarus ability to reroll a priority roll on turn 1 (when it matters least and when one player has a D10, frequently making the reroll irrelevant) is worth as much as the Astorum traits of faster movement and better repairs? And on the subject of Astorum, do they think that anyone would deliberately use the warlord trait that equates to playing the sabotage stratagem on yourself?

 

I really like this game. However I’m a bit worried about its future. It seems to me that knight armies have the potential to break the game if they are easily able to beat titans. My concern is that the writers don’t really seem to understand their game and so they might harm it without realising. Every time a new release comes out from now part of me will be nervous, as well as excited for the cool new toys we’ll get.

[Zhiv]

Also in Titandeath, the titan names of the color pages matched on the names on the banners on the actual titans.  In Molech, not so much. :P 

 

Interfector Dark Embrace technically allows you to call Emergency Repairs - get off a charge and have no worries moving AND shooting since the repairs are replaced with Charge order. of course it can be debated that this is the intent, but it's not clear from the get go.

 

It's not clear if a titan outside a maniple in Vulcanum force can be a seniores as per their special rules - the rules say only 'must not be in the same maniple'. 

[Fajita Fan]

It’s meant to simulate everyone firing at the same spot to overwhelm a spot on the armor or shielding.

 

It says you follow the normal attack sequence but you only roll once. So you go through a normal attack sequence with one gun while modifying the strength not the number of shots, resolve damage, then move on to your next gun.

[Sherrypie]

Sure sure, I'm not arguing that the book as a whole wouldn't have its rough patches of shoddier-than-before writing, with missing stratagems, non-matching names in colour plates and so forth. Just that the Coordinated Strike as written is pretty clear: one attack per banner, can be done by a lone knight as well. Sure it says according to normal Combat Sequence (which includes picking your other weapons at the end), but then flat out says "the Banner makes one attack". Whether or not it's meant to be that way, eeeeeeh I think it's a bit hard to say, really.

 

The big thing is, Coordinated Strike is the only Order that has no other drawbacks. It allows normal movement and let's you switch into another mode of firing that allows shieldbusting with gatlings / cracking automatically critical hits from your thermals and so on. Sure, it cuts your shots to that of only one gun but that's not a drawback, that's a trade with the higher strength. Only getting one of your guns to shoot for the privilege of switching modes? THAT is an actual drawback.

 

While the merits of the current mechanisation can be discussed, I would not be too hasty to say it's meant to allow you to shoot all your guns from the design viewpoint. If it seems disappointingly toothless through testing, sure, try it out with more guns, but I'd caution one to not jump into conclusions without some games first.

[Fajita Fan]

They’ll probably faq it to explain what they mean.

[Fajita Fan]

Also, Mandragola: that multiplication thing was fixed in the FAQ and it is the number of weapons in the banner that counts.

You know this makes a case for dual Gatling guns...

[Mandragola]

While the merits of the current mechanisation can be discussed, I would not be too hasty to say it's meant to allow you to shoot all your guns from the design viewpoint. If it seems disappointingly toothless through testing, sure, try it out with more guns, but I'd caution one to not jump into conclusions without some games first.

I think we can agree that we don't know what they intended and can't assume either way. But that's the whole problem.

 

As I've said before, personally I wouldn't take crusaders. I think a Questoris knight is at its most dangerous in melee, so I'd never want to take that option away. I don't see a great deal of point in a double-melee weapon knight either. I think an avenger cannon is a far better use of 5 points than a second combat weapon, especially if there's any chance you might use it for coordinated fire.

 

So in the end this particular rules error wouldn't affect me too much. The rules for my Astorum guys are fairly straightforward (if stupid, in the case of that warlord trait). But I think I'd rather they spent another month on the book, checked it over, and then released it alongside the Acastus knights. 

[Fajita Fan]

Unless you've got a bunch of thermal cannons wading in I can't see much point to stripping shields with gatling guns at all, may as well just get in close and flash them from inside the shield. 

[1ncarnadine]

Unless you've got a bunch of thermal cannons wading in I can't see much point to stripping shields with gatling guns at all, may as well just get in close and flash them from inside the shield. 

 

Yes that's definitely one solid situation

 

Otherwise, you can strip shields with a gatling gun so another gatling gun can fire (and target).

 

But ultimately the Porphyrion is going to be the reason you'll want to be stripping shields with gatling guns.

 

 

[Sherrypie]

In pure knight lists, yeah, Avengers are there to strip shields for the Acastuses to bring the pain.

 

If we assume you can bring support titans, then they can of course boast proper guns while small and cheap banners run ahead.

[Mandragola]

I see the battlecannon as a decent all-rounder. It has good range, accuracy and rate of fire and it can function fine without orders (arguably its biggest advantage in an army where everything else wants orders). It’s fine to fire into a damaged bit of a titan in the combat phase after a charge. The +1 to hit at short range and the 2 shots mean it could even potentially be better than a thermal cannon, against a badly damaged location. Sometimes all you need to do is hit.

 

It probably loses out to the thermal cannon if you’ve got no serious shooting though. As has been pointed out, there’s no need to knock down shields if none of your guns can hurt a titan at range anyway.

[Fajita Fan]

So the pics last weekend show a power fist for the Questoris knights, I wonder if that will have different points or rules. I used IG powerfists on three of my knights to get the same look but I wonder what that will do to my WYSIWYG points values.

[Sherrypie]

It won't, they just have some close combat weapons. Form is irrelevant.

[Fajita Fan]

I'm reading the Imperial Knights codex and the powerfist has a different profile from the chainsword.  It's got S*2 rather than S+6, better AP, -1 to hit, and when it kills something it does wounds to a nearby target. 

[DuskRaider]

40K rules =/= Titanicus rules

 

While that doesn't mean GW won't come out with rules to separate Thunderstrike Gauntlets from Reaper Chainswords, at this point in time they're just generic CC weapons. You could model literally any CC weapon on a Knight and it would be fine.

[Fajita Fan]

Sure, that's why I modeled mine with fists.

[Mandragola]

I'd be a bit surprised if they got different rules because then they'd need a new terminal. So far the rest of the sprue is just the stuff that's on the terminal, but missing from the model.

 

My guess is that it's there to give you the option of making a double-melee weapon knight without buying more kits. And for aesthetics.

[RipOffProductions]

I'd be a bit surprised if they got different rules because then they'd need a new terminal. So far the rest of the sprue is just the stuff that's on the terminal, but missing from the model.

 

My guess is that it's there to give you the option of making a double-melee weapon knight without buying more kits. And for aesthetics.

well you technically don't need to use multiple kits to build a double melee Knight, you'd just need to make one other other knights wield two of the guns.

 

now if you want a Knight duel wielding two of the same gun, then you do need a second kit.

[Atia]

 

I'd be a bit surprised if they got different rules because then they'd need a new terminal. So far the rest of the sprue is just the stuff that's on the terminal, but missing from the model.

 

My guess is that it's there to give you the option of making a double-melee weapon knight without buying more kits. And for aesthetics.

well you technically don't need to use multiple kits to build a double melee Knight, you'd just need to make one other other knights wield two of the guns.

 

now if you want a Knight duel wielding two of the same gun, then you do need a second kit.

 

 

My OCD still demands an official naming pattern for double gun Knights .... >.<

[Gore Crow]

My OCD still demands an official naming pattern for double gun Knights .... >.<

Reading this reminded me of the crisis battlesuit naming conventions from ATT and gave me a little spike of stress. 

[Fajita Fan]

The Rilfeman? Sir Shootsalot?

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

Maybe Sir DAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKA?

[Fajita Fan]

The 12 Second Warrior (for how long he can fire before needing to retire for resupply).

[Mandragola]

The 12 Second Warrior (for how long he can fire before needing to retire for resupply).

Not a problem. That’s many times his life expectancy, engaging in a shooting battle with titans. Reloading is never going to be an issue.

 

AT might be the only system in which a person can legitimately be criticised for bringing a gun to a knife fight. Because clearly, the greatest threat that knights can provide is in melee. Facing knights you’re worried about being charged, not about a few battlecannon shots. A knight with no melee weapon is far, far less of a threat.

 

As such I don’t think I’ll worry too much about names for the a class of knight that I’d never take.