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Turn 1 destruction


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12 replies to this topic

#1
Ultramarine vet

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So, from what I have discovered, at least for myself, is that it is super hard to win if you don't go first. I have battled Necrons 3 or 4 times, and I have lost every single one. And he went first in all of them. I was set to go first in our last battle, and he stole the initiative. Maybe I'm just not meant to win. 🤷‍♂️ But I just can't overcome turn 1 firepower. And if I do and make a gunline, I lack mobility and he ends up teleporting all over the place capturing objectives.

Does anyone know good ways of avoiding doomsday cannons, and this teleporting right to me first turn? I have tried all combinations of my army that I can think of.

Be vigilant, the taint of chaos is always near. There is no mercy for the weak and treacherous.


#2
The Pariah

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If you're talking about the Doomsday Ark with the shield that ignores attacks depending on its damage then you need to drown it with bolsters or the equivalent depending on your army. Any buffs to help would or even a pysker using Death Hex(?) To remove its invulnerable save is also sound.

As for the teleports, are they coming in turn 1? If its deep strikes then they should only be able to deep strike into their deployment zone. If its through other means then it's best to cover as much ground with your infantry and deny them the space to get there. At the very least it means they can only get about 9 inches away from your guys which makes charging a challenge.

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#3
BluejayJunior

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Make sure you're playing with enough line of sight blocking terrain. Deploy conservatively, assuming you will go second. Try to keep things in cover. Use the Prepared Positiions stratagem to give your whole army cover for the first turn. 

Those are some simple things that can help turn the battle in your favor. 


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#4
sal of manders

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without seeing a battle report, it may also be your deployment and/or terrain setup.  I'll echo dredgen here and say that if they're teleporting out of reserves, that they're only allowed to deploy within their own deployment zone if they're doing it in the first battle round.  That should be in the FAQ's if he/she asks.  GW nerfed turn one reserves specifically to stop the kind of alpha strikes that it sounds like you're getting hit by.

 

That said, if he's using something like an ork weird boy casting da' jump; in which case he's teleporting a unit ALREADY on the field, then your best defense against that is buffer units like scouts.  But again, if it's a unit coming out of RESERVES, it can only deploy within it's own deployment zone on the first turn.  Also, libby with null zone can help a lot against things with invul saves.  The trick is getting him there.



#5
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Quantum shielding isn't an invulnerable save, is it?

Taking cover for me is good against his infantry, but not against his doomsday cannon, because its like, -5 AP or something crazy. I still deploy my squads that are on foot in cover anyways for when his warriors open fire on me. What I think works quite well and I'm gonna try it again, is having a full plasma cannon devastator squad with a captain near them so I can supercharge a ton of shots at his arks. I'm also gonna try to get sternguards close to the arks and use the Masterful Marksman stratagem to pour bolter wounds into it. Hopefully it works well enough. Then the rest of my army can worry about the multiple units of 20 warriors that are consistently fielded. I also have centurions who can lay waste to about anything they aim at, especially with Guilliman or even a captain nearby. What do you guys think?
Also, I believe you guys are correct about using the terrain LoS to my advantage. I need to do that. Its probably another reason I'm getting devastated.

Edited by Ultramarine vet, 22 April 2019 - 08:57 PM.

Be vigilant, the taint of chaos is always near. There is no mercy for the weak and treacherous.


#6
Captain_Krash

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Sadly this is also one of the pitfalls of a "I go, you go" system. No matter what who ever gets the 1st turn is always going to have a quick advantage. The key is minimizing that advantage if at all possible.

 

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#7
NTaW

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Necron player here. Doomsday Arks are good but with a 4+ save it often relies almost entirely on quantum shielding, which flat out ignores damage so long as you roll lower than the individual damage inflicted on a D6 (ex. 3 damage requires a roll of 1-2 to ignore). Plasma cannons or if you have them plasma Inceptors, really anything with any AP and 1/2 damage, are a good way of getting rid of them. There is a 1cp stratagem that offers -1 to QS rolls for the phase which can really help out against D3 weapons but I've never found it enough help on D1/2 fire because there's often too much of it to matter much. Sternguard may actually be a decent fit at hunting Necron armour since they are AP-2 and have the +1 to wound stratagem, also very good at clearing out Warriors.

Against the Veil of Darkness teleport you need screening units like Scouts. If a CP is spent on doubling up My Will Be Done both Overlord and Lychguard will have +1 to charge and hit and there's a warlord trait that allows for re-rolling charges but none of that matters if your units are screened by squads that can be placed almost anywhere on deployment. Deploying 9" away from units on arrival can be pretty useless sometimes and it's a once per game ability.
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#8
BluejayJunior

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I'm pretty sure for Necrons, one of the C'tan has an ability to pick up some units and deploy them anywhere outside of 9" on the first battle round. That gets around the change to tactical reserves.

Also, just to point out. The only bring in reinforcements in your deployment zone on round 1 is no longer a thing. That changed in the 2018 Fall Big FAQ. Now it's just you cannot bring in reinforcements on turn 1 period, regardless of their location. But things that remove units already on the battlefield (like Da Jump, Gate of Infinity, or Upon Wings of Fire) and place them anywhere outside of 9" get around that. 


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#9
sal of manders

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Quantum shielding isn't an invulnerable save, is it?

Taking cover for me is good against his infantry, but not against his doomsday cannon, because its like, -5 AP or something crazy. I still deploy my squads that are on foot in cover anyways for when his warriors open fire on me. What I think works quite well and I'm gonna try it again, is having a full plasma cannon devastator squad with a captain near them so I can supercharge a ton of shots at his arks. I'm also gonna try to get sternguards close to the arks and use the Masterful Marksman stratagem to pour bolter wounds into it. Hopefully it works well enough. Then the rest of my army can worry about the multiple units of 20 warriors that are consistently fielded. I also have centurions who can lay waste to about anything they aim at, especially with Guilliman or even a captain nearby. What do you guys think?
Also, I believe you guys are correct about the terrain setup. Its probably another reason I'm getting devastated.

 

 

okay, looking at the rules for quantum shielding and the stats on the doomsday ark, I'd say your best bet is some combination of the following:

1) anything that does mortal wounds - quantum shielding isn't triggered by them - deliverable by...

 -missile launchers via "flak missile" strat since the ark flys

 -heavy bolters via "hellfire shells" strat

 -librarians

 -plus some other, less reliable options

2) plasma cannons (or any plasma to be honest) - goes through his armour and quantum shielding is unlikely to do much against over-charge

3) contemptor with kheres assault cannon, or mortis contemptor with TWO kheres assault cannons 

4) stalker tank, hit's on 2's, wounds on 3's, if you can keep it protected

5) whirlwind  with vengeance launcher, doesn't need LoS, so you can hid it behind something, and can auto-hit via datalink telemetry if you have a speeder close to the ark (good luck on that part though).

6) storm hawks with skyhammer, hard to hit, is hitting on 2's, wounding on 3's  

 

less effective options that should still work are

1)sternguard via their strat

2)assault cannons - need 4's to wound, but you can put them on lots of things that are easy to hide or hard to hit


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#10
Ultramarine vet

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Thank you all very much for the help, my brothers!! I have emerged victorious, in the name of the Emperor! Thank you NTaW, I did not know the Doomsday Ark has a 4+ save. That was quite overlooked. Your guys' advice helped me very much in my battle, I was able to win 17-8 in no mercy. Got first blood, slay the warlord, and line breaker. Guilliman with devastator centurions and sternguards is an incredibly deadly combo. Using LoS blocking terrain saved my centurions from being shot at, better than using a LR that just gets blown up round 1, which has been happening until now.

Again, thank you everyone for the help! My real MVPs.
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Be vigilant, the taint of chaos is always near. There is no mercy for the weak and treacherous.


#11
BluejayJunior

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Thank you all very much for the help, my brothers!! I have emerged victorious, in the name of the Emperor! Thank you NTaW, I did not know the Doomsday Ark has a 4+ save. That was quite overlooked. Your guys' advice helped me very much in my battle, I was able to win 17-8 in no mercy. Got first blood, slay the warlord, and line breaker. Guilliman with devastator centurions and sternguards is an incredibly deadly combo. Using LoS blocking terrain saved my centurions from being shot at, better than using a LR that just gets blown up round 1, which has been happening until now.

Again, thank you everyone for the help! My real MVPs.

Congrats! Glad you put those filthy xenos in their place lol 


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#12
Ultramarine vet

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Well brothers, I will add this. As I am curious about the feedback! I fielded 3 devastator centurions, all with grav-cannons and hurricane bolters. I also fielded Guilliman for rerolls, an apothecary to keep them alive, and a company ancient with the standard ascendant so that on a 3+ a centurion can unleash a final barrage before going down. It worked wonders. Has anyone tried something similar?

Be vigilant, the taint of chaos is always near. There is no mercy for the weak and treacherous.


#13
Panzer

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There was a rather successfull tournament list with I think 2x6 Devastator Centurions with full Hurricane Bolter and Heavy Bolters. Though played as Imperial Fists with the new fancy specialist detachment where 6s produce Mortal wounds. It shredded easily even T8 vehicles.


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