Turn One Sunmoning

[Arufel87]

I know this subject might soon be redundant as the FAQ is out soon, but are we allowed to summon turn one when taking into account the beta rules?

[Ulfast]

If I understand the rules right (please correct me if I´m wrong), you can summon turn one.

[Halandaar]

Per the Codex, summoned Daemons are considered to be reinforcements (p85 under Daemonic Ritual), and per the last Big FAQ from September, Reinforcements cannot arrive in the first battle round. So no, you can't summon in turn one.

[Prot]

Just to note.... we do interpret it locally as legal in turn one. So does ITC. For what it’s worth I’ve heard Reece of FLG say it is legal right now.

 

It’s just way over due for GW to clean some of this stuff up.

[Marshlands]

The actual rule is units you deploy in reserve can't come in turn 1, not all reinforcements as such

 

So you can, same as why you can teleport etc turn 1 and why currently GSC can deep strike 3 units turn 1

[Halandaar]

The actual rule is units you deploy in reserve can't come in turn 1, not all reinforcements as such

 

The actual rule, and I'm quoting directly here, is;

 

 

Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round.

 

Emphasis mine. Daemons which are summoned to the board using Daemonic Ritual were "not placed on the battlefield during the deployment", and will "arrive to the battle mid-game as reinforcements" (again, the Daemons Codex specifically states they are treated as reinforcements), so on the face of it seem to satisfy this criteria.

 

Is the argument here that summoned units weren't in your list, so weren't eligible for deployment in the first place and therefore weren't specifically held back to deploy later?

 

Seems like rules lawyering of the highest order specifically to circumvent the intent of the rule to me.

 

 

and why currently GSC can deep strike 3 units turn 1

 

This is specific exception, because the GSC FAQ states that anything deployed as a blip counts as being on the board already for the purposes of Tactical Reserves. So anything that you move from Ambush to Underground using They Came From Below isn't strictly arriving as a reinforcement, it was "already deployed". 

[Panzer]

 

The actual rule is units you deploy in reserve can't come in turn 1, not all reinforcements as such

 

The actual rule, and I'm quoting directly here, is;

 

 

Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round.

 

Emphasis mine. Daemons which are summoned to the board using Daemonic Ritual were "not placed on the battlefield during the deployment", and will "arrive to the battle mid-game as reinforcements" (again, the Daemons Codex specifically states they are treated as reinforcements), so on the face of it seem to satisfy this criteria.

 

Is the argument here that summoned units weren't in your list, so weren't eligible for deployment in the first place and therefore weren't specifically held back to deploy later?

 

Seems like rules lawyering of the highest order specifically to circumvent the intent of the rule to me.

 

Units you summon don't even exist before you summon them in the first place. They are just points you didn't spend. If you don't ever use those points the units never existed unlike units you put into reserves which count as being destroyed if they don't come in by the end of turn 3.

 

Anyway, you say it seems like rules lawyering of the highest order specifically to circumvent the intent of the rule to you, however that goes both ways. The arguing against it is just as much rules lawyering and whether it goes against the intent of the rule or not is 100% personal interpretation. Unlike reserves you are for example very restricted with where you want to deploy the summoned unit and risk blowing up one of your characters just like that too.

[Halandaar]

Anyway, you say it seems like rules lawyering of the highest order specifically to circumvent the intent of the rule to you, however that goes both ways. The arguing against it is just as much rules lawyering and whether it goes against the intent of the rule or not is 100% personal interpretation. 

 

I suppose that's fair. I mean, I think the intent of Tactical Reserves is pretty clear, given it works the same way for every faction in the game.

 

I guess the thing that's up for debate is the intent of Daemonic Ritual and whether or not it was intended to be subject to those same restrictions, and I don't suppose we can know the intent because the Daemons book was written to interact with a different version of Tactical Reserves.

 

Pffft. 

[Ulfast]

I actually hope with all the new Slannesh miniatures that is coming out that GW is making a 1.5 codex for us daemon players, similiar too what chaos space marines got and in that book they make this things more clear.

[Panzer]

Ideally a new daemon codex would include things like the depravity points system etc. which makes summoning legal without paying reinforcement points. :P

[Marshlands]

Problem is summoning was written before deep strike restrictions, so when written there definitely wasn't any intended restrictions, just a new rule which isn't entirely clear how it reacts

 

The summoning never seemed like much of a circumvention to me, if compared to say things that teleport turn 1, but I guess mostly because it doesn't seem overpowered. Unlike the GSC trick which is IMO clearly not the RAW

 

GSC can also summon and ive generally experienced a consensus this could be done turn 1 too

[Raven1]

I'm in the they can be summoned Turn 1 and they don't fall under the Tactical Reserves restrictions.

 

According to the first line "Instead of being placed on the battlefield during deployment,..." summoned daemons don't have a choice infact they aren't units per your roster they are reinforcement points and as such can't be deployed and what can't be deployed cannot be placed in Tactical Reserves instead.

 

Also its obviously not clear if there is a discussion about both ways. Tactical Reserves works the same for all codexes but this a rule unique to Chaos which arguably doesn't involve Chaos.

 

For what it is worth ITC allows it and on Signals of the Frontline Reese said the reason why ITC allows it was a GW rules designer said it was supposed to be that way, it's just not codified in an FAQ as of yet.

[Ulfast]

Propably only days left until the new big FAQ comes out and hopefull we will then get some answers to this question.

[Brother Crimson]

Just to add, latest ETC rules packet states that you can summon turn 1, just like Frontline Gaming events.

 

These are Tournament organizers clarification and not GW. Some tournaments could rule differently and the best is, as always to get direct approval from TO.

[Raven1]

Propably only days left until the new big FAQ comes out and hopefull we will then get some answers to this question.

Should be this Friday. Of course being GW they might just completely look over this as the answer is obvious to them.

[Doom Herald]

I think of it this way:

If you slay an enemy character with Gift of Chaos turn 1 should you be allowed to add a Spawn? It's not a unit set up in reserve, it's a rule that made a unit that didn't exist, once certain conditions were satisfied. Alternatively, would you tell someone that they can't make a Spawn with that power after turn 3 because of the reserve rules?

 

This is a more fitting comparison to summoning than deepstrike units.

[Doom Herald]

It's officially official. Turn 1 summoning is perfectly legal.

[Arufel87]

Hurrah!! Now to build a list...

[Panzer]

Great to have it clarified ... finally. Not that it makes summoning much more interesting for me. It's still a pretty crappy shadow to what we can do in AoS. :D