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Games Workshop - Contrast and Paint?


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#626
NTaW

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The medium looks absolutely critical for assisting with blotchy application. The painter in the video mentions that he went too hard on the mix and it was far too thin but "as a proof of concept" I'm pretty stoked.



#627
Bryan Blaire

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OTOH, it says outright that even if you half-ass it or have two left hands, you can still get your models PAINTED. And that's huge.

Yes, but that was true before Contrast came along...

I mean, seriously, there are people that have lost the use of both arms and manage to paint canvases and walls, etc, with their mouth.

I doubt that folks that wouldn't bother to paint even a primer coat before will automatically shift to having painted armies just because of Contrast. It looks like a good tool for some purposes, and I have no doubt that it will very much have some folks that already wanted to paint, but didn't because they felt like their offerings wouldn't be good enough - however, Contrast's effects are meaningless if you refuse to pick any paint/brushes up at all.

I really like that deep metallic black.

If you want a deep metallic black with some subtle built-in blue tone, check out Reaper's "Adamantium Black" - it looks wicked on some hand weapons for my human Blood Bowl team.
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#628
Lemondish

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I really like that deep metallic black.

If you want a deep metallic black with some subtle built-in blue tone, check out Reaper's "Adamantium Black" - it looks wicked on some hand weapons for my human Blood Bowl team.

Well, now I don't think I'll need to, but I'll keep that in mind if I'm unhappy with the Contrast paint.

#629
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OTOH, it says outright that even if you half-ass it or have two left hands, you can still get your models PAINTED. And that's huge.

 

 

Sure, but that's not a new feature - you could do just as well, just as quick, with normal paints.


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#630
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I dunno if anyone has posted this but Kris over on his latest livestream of Way of the Brush on youtube did a preview on some of the contrast range basics: https://youtu.be/dJz_GMgK3Hk

 

Jump to about 28 minutes to cut to the chase.


Edited by Silas7, 30 May 2019 - 04:14 AM.

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#631
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The more I watch people play around with these the more I realize that for a product targeted supposedly for beginners  there are a lot of critical downsides to them:

 

1. They are very shiny compared to the rest of the range which is fairly matte.  Their finish looks significantly different.

2. They are very slow to dry.  While this may actually be an asset to advanced painters it will be a pain in the ass for most beginners.

3. They do not work well on coarse primers. 

4. Their translucence that makes them a paint/shade/highlight solution for gribbly surfaces makes them a liability on flat panels, and Space Marines are all about flat panels.

5. They do not teach good painting habits to beginners at all.

 

My thoughts:  I think the promise of bottled lightning is going to discourage many beginners when they see the sub-optimal results.  As for more advanced painters, if I can accept all the drawbacks above I would rather use inks or oil paints.

 

My prediction: Contrast paints will be a short lived product.


Edited by appiah5, 30 May 2019 - 06:03 AM.

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#632
Brother Chaplain Kage

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Problem is people keep thinking of them as washes, when they're more like thinner dips that you apply with a brush. Along with all the stuff you mentioned, there's also the fact that they don't work well with water and from what I've seen in videos so far, you would probably want some of their proprietary medium to have more control of them. 


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#633
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The more I watch people play around with these the more I realize that for a product targeted supposedly for beginners  there are a lot of critical downsides to them:

 

1. They are very shiny compared to the rest of the range which is fairly matte.  Their finish looks significantly different.

2. They are very slow to dry.  While this may actually be an asset to advanced painters it will be a pain in the ass for most beginners.

3. They do not work well on coarse primers. 

4. Their translucence that makes them a paint/shade/highlight solution for gribbly surfaces makes them a liability on flat panels, and Space Marines are all about flat panels.

5. They do not teach good painting habits to beginners at all.

 

My thoughts:  I think the promise of bottled lightning is going to discourage many beginners when they see the sub-optimal results.  As for more advanced painters, if I can accept all the drawbacks above I would rather use inks or oil paints.

 

My prediction: Contrast paints will be a short lived product.

 

1. nature of the medium, and it supposedly needs varnish as it's more fragile than normal paint. If you're painting for gaming - which this is aimed at - a varnish coat is a good idea anyway.

2. I think this is actually an advantage for beginners, as it gives time to fix brush mistakes. And is still shorter than waiting for the conventional base coat + wash + layers to dry in total.

3. Just buy the awesome GW sprays and all your troubles are fixed! (Or halfords, or tamiya, or any other primer that didn't come out of the bargain crafts section)

4. fair point. They can work on marines with the darker colours with some care in application, but it's definitely not as simple. Then again, edge highlighting all those fiddy panels suuuuucks if you don't have the steady hands of a surgeon

5. I agree on this one. They're a good intro to painting with washes and glazes, and some colour theory, but they'll have to start over with layer-style painting.

 

I still think they're going to be a lot less disappointed than when they first try the conventional approach and find out how much work goes into those pretty models that they can't do (yet) Hell, I still feel that after 30 years of this! (My physical ability declines in rough equality to my knowledge learned) Being disappointed either puts you off early or encourages you to grow and keep trying, I don't think there's any way round that.

 

As someone that does use inks and washes quite a bit, I'm salivating. Most of the properties drawbacks apply equally to those as you say, but a more viscous medium that is partly wash like yet still clings to the higher areas for my potato brush control looks like heaven. I think they're going to sell by the truckload and after a gushy honeymoon period will become a standard tool in the box with pros and cons that we can barely imagine we didn't have, like the dark days before easy washes. Glazing for the mass audience - 12 year old me never would have imagined where we are now.


Edited by Arkhanist, 30 May 2019 - 07:11 AM.

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#634
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The more I watch people play around with these the more I realize that for a product targeted supposedly for beginners  there are a lot of critical downsides to them:

 

5. They do not teach good painting habits to beginners at all.

 

For me, at least, this is the straw that breaks the cat's meow with Contrast. My mentality to painting -- and in all truth, most pursuits in general -- is very much summed up by the old adage that "if it's worth doing, it's worth doing well."

 

These do not promote good painting habits. Worse yet, they actively promote poor painting habits with the "One Thick Coat" tagline -- a sentiment which has been the very antithesis of excellence in miniatures painting since long before Our Blessed Duncan started articulating the fact on WarhammerTV (I'm fairly certain that my copy of 1987's Heroes for Wargames extols the virtue of thin coats, but it's been a bit since I've had a flick through.) Contrast isn't going to get people who weren't painting before to paint miniatures. It's going to get those people to thoughtlessly slap colors onto models. They may be using paintbrushes, they may be using pigmented liquids that will dry and leave their tone on the surface of their miniatures, but the act of painting is more then that -- it's about learning the skills of the craft and developing them to the very best one's self is capable of. And these don't teach anything to people who are just beginning to paint anything that they can take further with them. And that's a bloody tragedy.

 

But who knows? Maybe I'm just curmudgeonly and change is inevitable, perhaps miniatures painting of the 21st millennium will go down an altogether different path and acquire a new set of techniques based around a new type of acrylic paint, displacing standard water based acrylics as acrylics did enamels for gaming figures back in the 80s. But... I'm not so sure. 


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#635
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Since you can't put light Contrast colors on top of dark ones, which is the reverse of the normal painting technique, not only will it potentially teach bad painting habits but it will also require a lot more planning on the part of inexperienced painters so they don't mess up the scheme they want. 


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#636
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still ... i know a few people who paint light to dark...sweat.gif

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#637
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I think the main point of these is that before a sloppy n00b paint job would be a 2/10. Now it can be a 4/10. That's neat in it's own way. I also don't think that it'll teach bad habits so much as it's a different process. We'll have to see how much it effects the end results as people move on. My bet is people figure out another way to paint to a high standard, which can only be a good thing.
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#638
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4. Their translucence that makes them a paint/shade/highlight solution for gribbly surfaces makes them a liability on flat panels, and Space Marines are all about flat panels.



My prediction: Contrast paints will be a short lived product.


Marines also have things like cabling, ribbed armour joints and Aquila's and other decorative element like wreaths and such, that contrast paints will be perfect for. Not to mention all the other armies with organic shapes, that you know, aren't marines. I'm looking forward to at least tryin them, and if I like them, I certainly hope you are wrong and they remain for a long time.
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I do find it hilarious that some people were saying the size of newer marine stuff looks great next to regular humans like Cadians, and then GW upsized the humans so they are the same height as marines again :lol: :lol: :lol:


#639
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The more I watch people play around with these the more I realize that for a product targeted supposedly for beginners  there are a lot of critical downsides to them:

 

5. They do not teach good painting habits to beginners at all.

 

For me, at least, this is the straw that breaks the cat's meow with Contrast. My mentality to painting -- and in all truth, most pursuits in general -- is very much summed up by the old adage that "if it's worth doing, it's worth doing well."

 

These do not promote good painting habits. Worse yet, they actively promote poor painting habits with the "One Thick Coat" tagline -- a sentiment which has been the very antithesis of excellence in miniatures painting since long before Our Blessed Duncan started articulating the fact on WarhammerTV (I'm fairly certain that my copy of 1987's Heroes for Wargames extols the virtue of thin coats, but it's been a bit since I've had a flick through.) Contrast isn't going to get people who weren't painting before to paint miniatures. It's going to get those people to thoughtlessly slap colors onto models. They may be using paintbrushes, they may be using pigmented liquids that will dry and leave their tone on the surface of their miniatures, but the act of painting is more then that -- it's about learning the skills of the craft and developing them to the very best one's self is capable of. And these don't teach anything to people who are just beginning to paint anything that they can take further with them. And that's a bloody tragedy.

 

But who knows? Maybe I'm just curmudgeonly and change is inevitable, perhaps miniatures painting of the 21st millennium will go down an altogether different path and acquire a new set of techniques based around a new type of acrylic paint, displacing standard water based acrylics as acrylics did enamels for gaming figures back in the 80s. But... I'm not so sure. 

 

I think you are misunderstanding what kind of beginner this is aimed at - this isn't the "one day i'll be a golden daemon winner" type of beginner, it's the kind of beginner who only cares about the playing aspect and doesn't just want a pile of grey plastic.

 

Remember, not all people do the hobby like you do (applies to anyone :) ) so don't discount the possibilities that this will potentially help out people who don't care about how cool they can get their model looking, just as long as it's good enough to be chucked on a table and have a game with. And if it's good enough for them? Well that's all that should matter to all of us :)


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#640
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I have a simple question about this Contrast paint thing; I have watched the Contrast Paint tutorial where they paint an Ultramarine with Contrast paints.

And it looks like ASS.

It's a blotchy mess that looks worse than my 3 year old can achieve with normal paint.

Why the hell did they make a video like this? If this paint is supposed to help achieve quick and decent results (and apparently it actually can) how the hell did they manage to make it look so BAD?

I mean look at this: https://citadelcolou...1/6038130494001

What? Seriously? I'm supposed to want to end up with figures that look like this?


I'll be honest, for the kids I teach, these results are better than what they currently do. They'll be happy and it banishes grey models.

Ultimately people have a huge variety of what they can do. No one forces anyone to do anything. It's simply another tool that can be used but you won't disappear in the night if you don't.
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#641
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I didn’t think it was possible for a range of paints to cause this much divisiveness but here we are.
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#642
sairence

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I think you are misunderstanding what kind of beginner this is aimed at - this isn't the "one day i'll be a golden daemon winner" type of beginner, it's the kind of beginner who only cares about the playing aspect and doesn't just want a pile of grey plastic.

Remember, not all people do the hobby like you do (applies to anyone :) ) so don't discount the possibilities that this will potentially help out people who don't care about how cool they can get their model looking, just as long as it's good enough to be chucked on a table and have a game with. And if it's good enough for them? Well that's all that should matter to all of us :)

This, so much. I love playing, but painting has been hard for me. I don't have the time, patience and will to learn to paint something to painting competition standards.

I have no interest in becoming a great moel painter. I love playing. I just want my stuff to look adequate when I put it on a battlefield.

For my requirements, these new paints have gotten me super-excited.

Edited by sairence, 30 May 2019 - 10:13 AM.

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#643
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I think the main thing that prevented me getting painted models on the table back when I started was that I was too young to use spray primer so my undercoating was done with a standard brush and I didn't know at the time that metal models really needed to be washed before painting. Suffice to say that getting models ready for the first basecoat was a horrible chore for me.

 

I can safely say that the hobby has come a long way since then. The much wider use of airbrushes is another good example. I just hope that nobody has to undercoat models like I had to again. These new paints will also speed up the next stage so we just need a way to make edge highlights less laborious and then all the skills I've learned since the nineties will be rendered obsolete. :P


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#644
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They are another tool in the box, designed for a specific purpose which anyone can use, or not use, or adapt.

 

Its like drybrushing. It has it's place, works really well in certain contexts, less so in others. You can apply it to a whole army, but it probably won't look as good as immaculate layering or blending. Doesn't mean we have to knock it so hard.


Edited by pingo, 30 May 2019 - 10:56 AM.

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#645
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Since you can't put light Contrast colors on top of dark ones, which is the reverse of the normal painting technique, not only will it potentially teach bad painting habits but it will also require a lot more planning on the part of inexperienced painters so they don't mess up the scheme they want.

Not really. Fix any mistakes or reset an area with the pot primer. For folks who are supposedly more experienced painters, it's really surprising how much imagination you folks lack ;)

I would also like to point out this fear of "promoting bad painting techniques" is a bit of an overblown issue. After all, the new Citadel Colour site does a wonderful job of explaining the two painting techniques side by side. For those that are interested in growing their skillset, they'll explore all those techniques and learn every tool in the toolbox.

For those that just want a tabletop army? Well, is there really an issue here? If they are indeed learning "bad" techniques as you say, but they never intended to paint in the first place, and do not intend to continue past a tabletop standard, are they really that much worse off?

I'm getting a real sour smell of painter elitism wafting out from every thread about Contrast. It's starting to become unbearable.

Edited by Lemondish, 30 May 2019 - 11:40 AM.

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#646
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=][= Let's keep the conversation civil, there's more than in way to skin a gyrinx. Hobby and painting can mean different things to different people there is no right answer. =][=


Edited by duz_, 30 May 2019 - 01:24 PM.

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#647
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The more I watch people play around with these the more I realize that for a product targeted supposedly for beginners there are a lot of critical downsides to them:

5. They do not teach good painting habits to beginners at all.

For me, at least, this is the straw that breaks the cat's meow with Contrast. My mentality to painting -- and in all truth, most pursuits in general -- is very much summed up by the old adage that "if it's worth doing, it's worth doing well."

These do not promote good painting habits. Worse yet, they actively promote poor painting habits with the "One Thick Coat" tagline -- a sentiment which has been the very antithesis of excellence in miniatures painting since long before Our Blessed Duncan started articulating the fact on WarhammerTV (I'm fairly certain that my copy of 1987's Heroes for Wargames extols the virtue of thin coats, but it's been a bit since I've had a flick through.) Contrast isn't going to get people who weren't painting before to paint miniatures. It's going to get those people to thoughtlessly slap colors onto models. They may be using paintbrushes, they may be using pigmented liquids that will dry and leave their tone on the surface of their miniatures, but the act of painting is more then that -- it's about learning the skills of the craft and developing them to the very best one's self is capable of. And these don't teach anything to people who are just beginning to paint anything that they can take further with them. And that's a bloody tragedy.

But who knows? Maybe I'm just curmudgeonly and change is inevitable, perhaps miniatures painting of the 21st millennium will go down an altogether different path and acquire a new set of techniques based around a new type of acrylic paint, displacing standard water based acrylics as acrylics did enamels for gaming figures back in the 80s. But... I'm not so sure.
Not everyone actually cares about the craft of painting. Personally, I hate painting. If I had unlimited money I'd never paint another model myself ever again.

Tournaments require painting so what I care about is the model being done(1st) to a standard that won't cost me too many painting points (2nd).If I can slap Talassar Blue, Snakebite Leather, and w/e yellow over spraycan zenithal'd armor->accessories->cloak and have 100 decently tabletop models done in a day, that's absolutely perfect.

Plus I just really like some of the colors.

Edited by ERJAK, 30 May 2019 - 01:19 PM.

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#648
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Since you can't put light Contrast colors on top of dark ones, which is the reverse of the normal painting technique, not only will it potentially teach bad painting habits but it will also require a lot more planning on the part of inexperienced painters so they don't mess up the scheme they want.


Not really. 'Do yellow before black' isn't particularly complex and I can tell you right now that most people who don't care about painting go by surface area(or jump around at random) so having some actual structure will probably be helpful.
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#649
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Am I excited about these from a showcase model standpoint? Not really. Am I excited that these will likely allow me to bang out full units of gribblies in the time I normally use for 1 model, you bet I am. I think it will also be interesting to see if there's a big uptick in ETL participation this year thanks to these.
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#650
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I'm getting a real sour smell of painter elitism wafting out from every thread about Contrast. It's starting to become unbearable.

 

This, a hundred times this. Having seen what you can do with Contrast, especially combined with simple zenithal priming for a really nice finish, I really don't understand what the problem is. Good results are good results; does it matter if you spent hours edge highlighting every single scale on a dragon or if you used overbrushing and selective glazes and clearcoats to get a slightly less precise but still impressive and much quicker result? And let's be real, I'd much rather see lots of armies painted mostly with Contrast, looking nice but with slight blotchiness, compared to lots of armies with slapped on unthinned paint, or worse still, completely unpainted.

 

As someone who's always been a believer in "doing it the hard way is easiest" I'm still hyped for Contrast, because quite aside from it being a way to get a lot of my models moved along quickly (I'll most likely not be using it exclusively, but combined with traditional painting it should work nicely for getting nice looking battle-ready models out fairly fast) it's another tool in the toolbox, and that's never a bad thing. I'm more excited about testing new ways of using it out for things like weathering effects, blending etc.

 

On a more positive note I actually think these will be really good through an airbrush. From what I've seen it behaves differently by air to by hand, but the thinness, smoothness and subtle translucency makes me think it'll be really, really useful for airbrush painters for getting certain effects- plus, the fact it works like a clear paint if painted over, say, Leadbelcher, but dries like a regular (if slightly satin) paint over flat colours will give it huge versatility.

 

TLDR: It'll be a useful set of training wheels for beginners and an interesting tool for experts.


  • Sandlemad, Antarius, Oxydo and 1 other like this

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I come here to discuss and find out about Warhammer 40,000 with people of every ethnicity, sexuality, country and yes, as sickening as it is, even Eldar players.

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people, but monkeys do too, if they've got a gun." -Inquisitor Edmund Izzardos, on Jokaero.

 

(Formerly known as Squigsquasher)





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