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Games Workshop - Contrast and Paint?


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#51
Subtleknife

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If it is a dip system where you can just go crazy from white it could be good for horse armies. I am interested to see what it will be.

Don't know how many horse armies there are in 40k.

Damn autocorrect. Meant horde lol
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#52
Magos Takatus

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Oh, that makes a lot more sense. I just assumed it was because most horses are mainly one colour without fancy patterns on them. :D


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#53
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Seen a few "well dip is fine because not everybody is great at painting etc" type comments. In what sense is dip an improvement for those people vs an all-over coat of Agrax? Serious question.

 

Dip is oil based, not acrylic. Snapshots from zombicide painting video (don't know an equivalent citadel mini video, just demoing the effect)

 

SrzC3ao.png

 

And the end result

gflw1wz.png

 

Note, the soft tone quickshade is less harsh for lighter colours (such as white), but he's used the same painted on strong tone 'dip' for everything.

 

All you need to do is prime, base coat, quickshade, final highlights. If you fluff up the basecoat a bit, the quickshade will cover a certain amount of sins. Is it gonna win a golden demon award, obviously not. Is it a good way to get 100+ painted zombies/orks/beastmen on the table inside a single lifetime even if you're not a beginner? Hell yes.


Edited by Arkhanist, 24 April 2019 - 04:17 PM.

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#54
Halandaar

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Well, youre comparing dip-shading to basecoating,

 

Not really, I'm comparing dip-shading to liberally slapping shade all over the model with a brush, and not seeing really why dipping is better.

 

The only reason I mentioned basecoating at all is in the context that, if you've basecoated a model to the point where you could dip-shade it, you've already done something much more difficult than liberally slathering a model in shade paint with a brush. Is dipping really going to save that much time and effort in that situation?

 

Pin washing and recess shading really doesn't seem relevant to a conversation about literally dunking whole models into a pot of goop.


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#55
Elzender

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Halandaar, from what I've understood, most dips are oil based and will cover quite homogenously the whole model but also pool in the recesses after a whole model dunk, whereas a water-based wash will leave some uneven stains in the flat parts of the miniature. Basically, the dip gives a closer result to a pin wash/recess shading, probably not as clean or well-defined, but better than a whole mini wash, which will probably leave some spots on flat surfaces.

Edited by Elzender, 24 April 2019 - 06:48 PM.

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#56
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Well, youre comparing dip-shading to basecoating,

 

Not really, I'm comparing dip-shading to liberally slapping shade all over the model with a brush, and not seeing really why dipping is better.

 

The only reason I mentioned basecoating at all is in the context that, if you've basecoated a model to the point where you could dip-shade it, you've already done something much more difficult than liberally slathering a model in shade paint with a brush. Is dipping really going to save that much time and effort in that situation?

 

Pin washing and recess shading really doesn't seem relevant to a conversation about literally dunking whole models into a pot of goop.

 

 

It's not the technical difficulty - slathering a model with dip vs slathering a model with GW shade is literally the same job. It's about the end result. Have you ever tried it? If you liberally apply say, agrax earthshade over the entire model, you'll get tide marks, crevices where it doesn't shade at all but dries round the rim, and splotchy marks all over. If you thin it down, it goes on more like a glaze and you get a more even colour over the whole model but not much contrast. So for normal use, you must apply somewhat carefully, wicking away excess to avoid pooling. Even so, the traditional use of a shade is

 

a) base coat

b] wash carefully, making sure it doesn't pool up

c) reapply base coat on everywhere that's not a crevice to clean up marks

d) highlight

 

or 

a) base coat

b] pinwash

c) highlight

 

Pinwashing or reapplying base coat in smaller areas - in two thin coats - requires more time and practise.

 

Quickshade is

a) base coat

b] slather on quickshade, which will hide minor mistakes

c) optional highlight

 

If you don't believe me, try taking a size two brush and slather on an acrylic wash without wicking any off, let it dry, and see what it looks like afterwards, and tell me if you'd be happy leaving the model like that with no other work. Quickshade looks better and gives better contrast than an all over acrylic wash because it's a different type of paint. It has drawbacks of course, it's quite a distinctive style, but for what it's designed to do, it does it well - see above for the examples.

 

For painters who aren't novices, the less stages with dipping means you can crank out large quantities of hordes (works best with organic surfaces, so zombies, orks etc) quicker with less effort, and still do that little bit extra such as wicking pools of quickshade (you don't get tide marks like you do with washes, but it does still look kinda heavy) and final highlights to get a tabletop quality quicker. Army Painter founded an entire company on their easy-to-use dip product before they expanded to their current extensive paint range.

 

Nobody is forcing you to use dip, not even if GW releases one. You don't have to like the effect, or want to use it - but some people do.


Edited by Arkhanist, 24 April 2019 - 07:06 PM.

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#57
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Army painter made their company off dip because there was nothing really in the market at the time that was as comparable/accessible. Of course you will hit critical success if you are first to market with an industry innovation. GW either has to meet the standard or exceed it with a new dip/shade type product. Dips/quickshade vs traditional washes/glazing has always been a civil war amongst miniature painters. I don't expect such a product to be extremely profitable at this point considering the saturated market now, I see this as more of GW throwing their hat in to get some of the market to fill a gap in their product line. 


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#58
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Ok so, now we have a look at the painted model in the right hand of Morpheu...I mean Peach...No! Morpheus! Ah! Whoever the hell he is -Now that we have a look at a painted model,

i place my bet on paint markers, like the brand POSCA but with citadel colors. Or I heard Japaneses have those for their Gundam miniatures.

 

That way, you could "colorize" your miniatures like a drawing, instead of "painting them". You would apply your bases colors like this, it would be easy, it would be quick... and shade them then the traditionnal way. It would be easy for 10 year old Dylans and Kevins to use it, and remove the problem of cleaning brushes, dilution of your paints, quantity of paint loaded onto a brush, open the lid without spilling a shade or paint bottle everywhere on their clothes...
Because ya know, there's an untold rule at GW that says that every product they make should be usable easily by a 10 years old kid.

And it would be awesome for some free hands!

I would love it if these were something like Gundam Markers... but to be honest, I'm expecting this to be pre-made and pre-painted models, other wargame companies sell such things at a premium, so think what GW can justify charging considering the base prices of their models.



#59
Djangomatic82

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I am really hoping that it is something like a line of markers in their color range, though with a fairly tiny tip size, good for edge highlighting. I had picked up a 1mm molotow refillable acrylic ink marker with the hopes of using it for recess shading and highlighting, but even at 1mm, the tip is pretty chunky for a lot of the stuff i want to use it for.


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#60
Halandaar

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If you don't believe me, try taking a size two brush and slather on an acrylic wash without wicking any off, let it dry, and see what it looks like afterwards, and tell me if you'd be happy leaving the model like that with no other work. Quickshade looks better and gives better contrast than an all over acrylic wash because it's a different type of paint. It has drawbacks of course, it's quite a distinctive style, but for what it's designed to do, it does it well - see above for the examples.

 

For painters who aren't novices, the less stages with dipping means you can crank out large quantities of hordes (works best with organic surfaces, so zombies, orks etc) quicker with less effort, and still do that little bit extra such as wicking pools of quickshade (you don't get tide marks like you do with washes, but it does still look kinda heavy) and final highlights to get a tabletop quality quicker. Army Painter founded an entire company on their easy-to-use dip product before they expanded to their current extensive paint range.

 

Nobody is forcing you to use dip, not even if GW releases one. You don't have to like the effect, or want to use it - but some people do.

 

To clarify, this is the sort of answer I was looking for, a reasonable explanation of the differences because I genuinely didn't know what they were. I wasn't looking to wind anybody up or anything.


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#61
Achinadav

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It was a very helpful answer for me too. I had no real idea what the dip products were, having only seen them in my FLGS and never used them. I think I'm put off them by being oil based to be honest. Its just easier to use water based products all the time.



#62
Aramis K

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The painted mini in the video looks like it has a brown base. Maybe we'll get brown plastic textured bases that don't need painting, as well as some sort of spray n pen n dip system.

7ZTAO6J.jpg

Edited by Aramis K, 25 April 2019 - 09:05 AM.

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#63
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Sorry Halandaar, I did come off rather harsh there. Dip is a bit a polarising topic because some people see it as 'cheating' or 'lazy', others are entirely convinced it's pointless because acrylic washes exist, others think it's just ugly etc etc, and as a somewhat defender of oils, I think I channeled a bit of frustration there that wasn't warranted!

 

Oils (which includes dip) have some distinct advantages - longer working time, i.e. how long before it dries which is usually quite some minutes - this helps it dry evenly with a smoother natural gradient, while acrylic washes dry so quickly you get tide marks if you let it pool, and you have to be very quick to get it off areas you didn't want. For weathering usage in particular, you can re-activate oils with fresh solvent, to thin it out and move it around - so streaking effects for rust, water stains becomes trivially easy.

 

Acrylic washes are great most of the time, particularly when you want to target a wash colour to a particular bounded area, e.g. nuln oil on metals, agrax on leather, reikland on skin etc - oils do like to spread around a bit, which makes them great when that's what you're after (in an allover or weathering effect) but rather frustrating when you just want to hit a leather pouch and not clean up around it after. Oils work great on well defined lines for pinwashing too, particularly over an interim gloss varnish layer - and you can just clean off any runover with solvent.

 

The biggest drawback of oils, including dip, is the need to use an organic solvent to thin and clean your brushes, such as mineral or white spirits. I hate the smell of the stuff, which is why I only use oils in certain circumstances, when the advantages are worth it - such as doing rust streaks. When using dip, I usually don't bother and just rinse out my sacrificial cheap brush with soap and water before it hardens - that brush isn't in great nick, but it doesn't need to be to slap on quickshade and wick it off a bit!

 

It's a tool in the box, just like my airbrush, and my glaze medium - I tend to switch up my methods to suit the model, rather than stick to one style for everything, which is not everyone's cup of tea!


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#64
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I'm curious to see what this is. Part of me wants to know if this is some sort of innovation rather than treading the same old grounds as other companies already have with the likes of dips.


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#65
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Oh man, I miss my Flesh Wash. I still have Yellow and Dark Angels Green Ink and for the longest time I was being miserly with my last Flesh Wash pot but it eventually dried up sad.png


I miss the armor wash. It wasn't just a black wash, it was kind of metallic too. Secret Weapon makes one but I noticed it's kind of brown and oily rather than just black.

I am intrigued.

I believe I need some of that for my not exactly well-maintained Obsidian Knight I'll be working on soon.

#66
animal310

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I’m fairly sure its a GW airbrush. The latest White Dwarf has painting guides with airbrush stages which I’m sure is new.

Absolutely no way is it pre-painted miniatures.

Dip? No chance.

Edited by animal310, 25 April 2019 - 08:46 PM.


#67
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I'm curious to see what this is. Part of me wants to know if this is some sort of innovation rather than treading the same old grounds as other companies already have with the likes of dips.

while I also hope this is actually something cool... it's either something that makes super basic painting super easy(paint pens and shade dips as folks here have been speculating seem the best fit for that, though the old speculation that it would be an airbrush is still possible), or it's that GW will start offering pre-assembled and pre-painted models as an option...

 

either way I feel that whatever this is has already become over-hyped, and will thus fall flat on its face through no fault of its own, but instead due to the marketing team going overboard.



#68
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I think the instant you start making mini-movies about a painting option, you’ve already gone overboard...
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#69
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I can’t see games Workshop getting into airbrushes essentially because if it’s a brush with aerosol propellant it will be as useful as the testers ones which are terrible, and if they have manufacturing room issues with just molds I can’t see them manufacturing airbrush compressors either.
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#70
animal310

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I can’t see games Workshop getting into airbrushes essentially because if it’s a brush with aerosol propellant it will be as useful as the testers ones which are terrible, and if they have manufacturing room issues with just molds I can’t see them manufacturing airbrush compressors either.


But they won’t manufacture it, it will probably be a rebrand of an existing airbrush.

#71
Arkhanist

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I don't think it will be actual dip like Army Painter, it's basically woodstain in a tin. Given the need for everything to be suitable for like, 10 year olds, I just can't see them shipping a mainstream product aimed somewhat at novices that needs white spirit or other toxic solvent to clean up.

 

Airbrush? Already a competitive market and not simple to manufacture. A rebrand, maybe. But what has that got to do with 'Contrast', really? Nor does it particularly speed up painting compared to rattle cans for priming/base coating. Sure, it's dead handy for use at night or in crappy weather and I love mine to bits for the funky stuff you can do, but with cleaning and setup I'm probably slower with an airbrush than not. (Imperial Fists players excepted!)

 

It's not coloured or pre-painted minis - Gw have already said on social media that it's something brand new for your painting arsenal.

 

Paint pens, I could see, but again, does it fit the emphasis on 'contrast'? Almost sounds like it might be a range name: 'all new, Abbadon Contrast'. Which is why I keep circling back to a dip-a-like. So one thought did occur to me - clay washes. They're water based, non toxic, but the key thing is they're reactivated with water. So you slop it where you want or airbrush it on, let it dry, then wipe the surfaces off with a damp tissue/cotton bud/sponge. The clay wash stays in the crevices, and bingo, easy pin washing. Rub off less? Nice dingy weathering.

 

Screw it up? Add more water and wash it off completely, try again. I have a couple aimed at historical modellers (flory models wash) and they're perfect for tanks and planes. It works really nicely for adding contrasts to rubble bases too. I haven't tried it on space marines yet, but I'm certainly going to when I paint some non black ones. 

 

They could even sell a heavily overpriced sponge on a stick to wipe it off with.


Edited by Arkhanist, 25 April 2019 - 10:09 PM.

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#72
DutyBeforeAll

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If they do an airbrush hopefully they’ll do an entire airbrush ready paint range.

#73
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They've made their own "airbrush" before and it was good awful garbage. It looked like a Hand Flamer. Horrible.
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#74
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They've made their own "airbrush" before and it was good awful garbage. It looked like a Hand Flamer. Horrible.


Rumor is, it's a contract with badger air brushes
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#75
ERJAK

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If they do an airbrush hopefully they’ll do an entire airbrush ready paint range.


They...already have that.




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