Nomad-Predation Fleet Questions

[Ekim_Trub]

So, over the last few days I have been looking more into the nomad-predation fleets that the XIXth Legion used & that Corax exiled from the Raven Guard, which has led me to have a few questions that I hope the community here can help me answer. 

I already know that the Ashen Claws and Carcharodons both originated from exiled nomad-predation fleets, and have read what I can online about them before anyone suggests looking towards them for answers. 

My questions are:
 

• What size was the average Chapter of a Legion? 
  (I always believed they were around a thousand Legionaries, split into two Battalions of five hundred, further broken down into five Companies each of a hundred Legionaries- however, the Ashen Claws have been stated as being around four thousand strong at the time of exile.)
   
• What were the types of capital ships used by the Legions during the Great Crusade, and what were their capabilities? How many would we expect to have been issued to a Chapter?
  The Ashen Claws were given thirteen capital ships and a score of escort vessels- would we divide this by four? And their flagship was an Infernus-class battleship, do we have any info about this class?
   
• How many vehicles would we expect a fleet to possess? Would any type of vehicle have been removed upon their exile? 
   
• We know that the Legions were supported by other forces such as the Imperial Army and the Legio Cybernetica- would it be within Corax's power to exile any of these forces serving alongside his Legionaries?
   
• Would the fleets have had Chaplains? (They didn't appear to be widespread amongst the Legion.)
   
• It would appear that there are officers of the same rank, but at different levels within a Chapter, so how would they differentiate between a Chapter Consul and a Battalion Consul?
   
• We now know that there were former prisoners freed from Deliverance among the exiles, not just Terran veterans, and that only Deliverance-born Legionaries exhibited the ability to "shadow walk/wraith-slip", so would it be possible for members of these fleets to have this ability? 
  Or would they have been recruited into the Mor Deythan or Moritats instead of being banished?
   

 

Thanks in advance.

[Marshal Rohr]

1- Anywhere between 1,000 and 10,000 legionaries

2- There are too many different types to classify, but all capital vessals can be identified as battleships/barges, grand cruisers, and cruisers/strike cruisers.

3- Fleets were anywhere between a few hundred vessels to over a thousand

4- Exile, no. 

5- They could have Chaplains

6- Consular Officers perform roles at their respective levels. Master of Signal coordinate communications for the company or the battalion.

7- Up to you really

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well first off, it's never been explicitly stated that the carcharodons are from the raven guard. It's been kept pretty nebulous in fact.

 

A lot of legions didn't even use chapters (iron hands clans, blood angels 300 companies, iron warriors grand-whatevers, wolves' great companies); they had no fixed size whatsoever.

 

The only other infernus class battleship I can recall appears in the word bearers trilogy. They're apparently extremely powerful, but sub Gloriana

 

Corax might be able to exile army groups, depending entirely on circumstance and relative rank of the commanders. Mechanicum are in theory co-empires, so not them. I doubt he'd strip fleets/chapters/whatever of their assets; material wasn't hard to come by during the crusade.

 

I strongly doubt the original terrans of the XIX would have chaplains. Other forces maybe.

 

A lot of legion consuls seem to make up support staff of a praetor. It's entirely up to the nature of the command and organizational structure though.

 

It's definitely possible to have some wraith slipping. Just very improbable. There were very few mor deythan, so the handful of deliverance born legionnaires through the nomad fleets couldn't have had a high amount

[Skalpynock]

If your fleet is of Terran stock, they may have Opsequarii rather than Chaplains. Which you can model "secularly" while using Chaplain rules.

[Ekim_Trub]

Thanks for the replies.

 

I was of the understanding that Consul-Opsequiari was a rank only found among the Space Wolves, so not sure if that idea is workable.

[malika666]

The Space Wolves were either the first or most famous example of the deployment of the Opsequiari, but they aren't unique.

[Sandlemad]

You can see that the post-Sanguinius 'Burning Eyes' of the Blood Angels are a direct evolution of the Opsequiari, right down to adapting the 'Sanghauta' flame-blade icon into their own, so it was definitely wider than the Vith legion. The early Space Wolves were particularly closely associated with the Opsequiari, partially because they had discipline problems and partially becaue they so often fought alongside imperial army regiments. In those cases even regular VIth legion squads temporarily bore that icon to show how quickly they would deploy punitive measures on their allies; summary executions, decimations, that sort of thing.

 

Given the pre-Corax XIXth legion's infamous watchfulness for mutiny and how brutally quick they were with the lash (to Corax's distate), I suspect that the Opsequiari and the use of the Sanghuata icon was probably pretty common. It could certainly work for a chaplain-type character but you could even scatter it through your force for lesser discipline officers or squads.

 

RE: the imperial army: Corax certainly would have the power to assign imperialis auxilia forces to accompany the nomad-predation fleets. Worth remembering that this wasn't explicitly referred to as exile, rather that these XIXth forces were being sent on long-range missions beyond the edges of the great crusade. All the old Terran veterans knew it was meant as exile but it did have a genuine military objective, to harrow th ghoul stars and such. A bit like the old Vth legion pioneer companies but at a later stage.

 

There's no reason to think that they were deliberately stripped of resources by Corax and were probably kitted out as normal. It was only later that they felt the pinch, when they couldn't resupply stuff like rarer tanks or advanced gear. Most mortal auxilia officers were probably clued in enough to know that this wasn't this the most favourable assignment but they could hardly say no.

 

RE: the Mechanicum: different kettle of fish but there could have been some. Corax probably couldn't explicitly order them to go, particularly given the wider Mechanicum's diplomatic irritation over Deliverance's technological independence - but that doesn't mean there were no Mechanicum forces accompaning the fleets. Hundreds/thousands of low-ranking techpriests were probably oathed to the legion more generally for their forges and ships, and some of the Terran officers might have had existing bonds with particular factions or Legio Cybernetica conclaves.

 

On top of that some factions in the Mechanicum might have seized on the opportunity to explore the outer dark alongside a fully armed astartes fleet. The Ordo Reductor and Myrmidon cults could have sought military knowledge of strange new foes, and techpriests from more radical forge worlds could have sought archaeotech, xenotech or other murky ancient knowledge at the galaxy's edge.

[bluntblade]

Extrapolaring from Badab War fluff about the Carcharodons, I think a Nomad Predation fleet would have very few battleships if any, favouring faster and lighter vessels like strike cruisers.

 

These aren't fleets intended for prolonged conquest operations, but to get in, tear stuff up and get our quickly.

 

One note: BA definitely had chapters, they're referenced in Betrayal and, I believe, one appears in Retribution.

Edited April 28, 2019 by bluntblade

[Ekim_Trub]

Thanks for the replies, they have helped massively in helping me piece together how a nomad-predation fleet would look upon their exile. (I was actually researching this in the hope to use one of the fleets as the origins for my DIY chapter, and I think I can now make it work in universe.)


So, to sum up:

We would expect to see some Consul-Opsequiari's, and the use of the Sanghuata icon, scattered among the ranks of the Terran veterans as a throwback to their old role of hidden sentinels against recidivism. 

Corax would have had the power to assign Imperialis Auxilia forces to these fleets, but not Mechanicum forces. However, some may have chosen to accompany the fleets for their own reasons, such as the Legio Cybernetica who may have served with the Legion, or the Ordo Reductor and Myrmidon cults who may be seeking new enemies to expand their knowledge and skills against.

The fleets would not have been stripped of any assets and would have access to all the wargear/vehicles available at the time due to resources being freely available. (Although these assets would dwindle over the years due to a lack of resupply/support.)


Interestingly, I would disagree about a lack of battleships. I feel that they would possess a fair few for when the encounter an enemy that strike cruisers just can't deal with. Also, it would give the fleets more space to transport their support staff and supplies, and give them ships to act as mini flagships if the fleet chose to further sub-divide.

[Marshal Rohr]

It really depends on what you mean by Battleships. If you mean ships like the Nicor or Red Talon, they’d probably have a lot of those since they are built for long range operations with limited support. If you mean something like a a true battleship, probably not.

[SkimaskMohawk]

What do you mean by "true battleship" ?.

[Marshal Rohr]

Something that is primarily outfitted for ship to ship combat, of the battleship class, without a lot of space given over for hangers and pod bays. Nomad Fleets are supposed to be ranger forces, so their upper tier battleships would likely be outfitted for boarding actions and orbital assault. Using the old BFG classes, something like the Apocalypse or Retribution.

 

In my mind they’d probably have more dedicated heavy cruisers to be their main broadside and lance ships, and Grand Cruisers or Battleships outfitted for deploying space marines as their biggest vessels.

 

Something like the Nicor as a flagship, 4 to 6 cruisers meant to tag team big vessels, and more frigates and destroyers than you’d normally find in a fleet that size.

Edited April 28, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[SkimaskMohawk]

For sure, but in contrast the ashen claws had an infernus class battleship as their flagship. Now, the only two sources for them are in dark creed and outer dark. They're stated as some of the largest battleships in the entire crusade and decommissioned due to being too powerful for (in fear of the heresy).

 

So, I'd say ship classes entirely depend on the exiled forces resources. The raven guards 18th had an extremely powerful "true" battleship as one of its 13 capital ships; others may not have

[Marshal Rohr]

Gotcha, I haven’t read either book so I can’t speak with any knowledge about it. I’m just going off of how the battleship configurations are described. I’ll look around for Infernus references.

[SkimaskMohawk]

There does seem to be some internal inconsistency. Both infernus are referred to as battleships in their respective books, but the Wicked Claw is then also referred to as a heavy cruiser later in the book. But this is the book where they talk about how they were too powerful and not made post heresy.

 

Regardless of size, the Wicked Claw also mounts a weapon that kills a hive ship in two shots. And that's seen as rare, as most capital ships would have been killed in one...

[Marshal Rohr]

I think they very intentional elide over specifics when it comes to battleships and ship weaponry because they want to leave their options open. Which is why we see so much inconsistency.

[Ekim_Trub]

I must admit, the lack of inconsistency in the size/strength/capabilities of ships has caused me a lot of frustration when looking into this matter.

[Marshal Rohr]

Don’t let it. When it comes to lore it’s uo to you to do what you want but also make it fit. If there’s a precedent as long as your ship isn’t one shotting the Phalanx and your praetor nut punching Sevatar, anything else can explained with enough self-control. If you want exiles you don’t have to come up with a big dramatic event. Corax could simply find them brutish and distasteful and send them somewhere they can do some good without collateral damage. The same way fighting with your wife might mean you sleep on the couch for a few days, but it’s not a big divorce. Edited April 28, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[Ekim_Trub]

I know, but I would just like things clearly classifed. It just makes life easier if we all know that a x-class ship is 8km long, capable of carrying 400 Astartes & is set up for ship-to-ship combat, whereas a z-class ship is 15km long, can house 600 Astartes & built to bombard planets flat.

[Marshal Rohr]

Ships in the Heresy can be 6km long and carry complements of several thousand marines. Alexis Polux was able to launch one or two thousand fists simultaneously from the Tribune, which was noticeably smaller than the Contrador they boarded. The Contrador was a normal battlebarge in the Battlefleet Gothic configuration of a battle barge. The old one strike cruiser carries one company and one battle barge carries three hundred marines is a post heresy stricture meant to neuter legions into chapter and take the teeth out of marines as a naval force. Edited April 28, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[No Foes Remain]

There is also the factor of ships being refitted or rebuilt after damage. For example a cruiser that had macro cannon batteries and lance cannons batteries may have the lances removed and either more macro cannons or flight bays put in place, maybe they didn't have the resources to replace the lance cannons or the systems for them were damaged beyond repair and they were too far out from normal supply line and were forced to make do.