Is anyone using basic terminators?

[dice4thedicegod]

Is anyone using basic terminators? (Chain axe and combi bolter)

 

I just chopped 5 of my dual lightning claws (assembled about a week before the warp time power was nerfed) to have the basic load out. Figure that they won’t win any games, but will be a useful distraction unit that will probably draw attention disproportionately to their 145 point price tag)

 

How are they working for you?

[Trevak Dal]

I haven't used any, but I'm considering redoing my red butchers (modeled with dual chainaxes that were supposed to be dual power axes) with wrist or arm mounted bolters Combi Bolter being two bolters and all, and the nature of World Eaters terminators being...well very excitable fellows meaning they charge in blasting before chopping the meat.

 

The issue is, taking stuff that isn't Zerkers is taking away from my Zerker horde in rhinos theme.

 

I wish I could trade some of my chaos Terminators for an equivalent number of Grey Knight Terminators. Just take me down to 10 total (or maybe even the new fancy ones, though I still prefer my raptor heads in place of the Terminator helmets)

Edited April 25, 2019 by Trevak Dal

[Amon777]

5 Basic terminators with chainaxes and combi-bolters is 145 and I'm using it as ablative wounds for Abbadon on a drop. They are cheap enough with a moderate level of shooting, CC, and durability to be worth it with a beater character to actually do the damage. A chaos smash jump lord could also be a good choice.

[Prot]

Pre codex I used a stronger variant with Combi plasma. They weren’t great but tolerable in funsy games.

 

Post codex 2 I’ve run mostly the basic variety. I really have had a horrible time. I started using them as a Guard for Abaddon, but a few rounds with Genestealer cult and Tau and they just drop like chaff so I’d rather use Raptors to be honest.

 

I swapped to a greater commitment of 8 Termies guarding Abaddon and Oblits. Tried Termie Sorc giving them delightful Agonies and it showed promise but it’s quite frankly a ridiculous commitment to a unit of mediocre damage output.

 

Too much high damage in my meta. I realize from playing Deathwatch for quite a while that they really need access to some form of 3++ invuln without a ton of support characters propping them up.

 

Just my experience and I know some people here have a great time with them. I concede there’s a fair chance I’m just not understanding how to use them but in my defence a very shooty meta with multi damage weapons is really just pushing me back to chaff hiding good characters.

 

I apologize if I come off a bit frustrated but I tried pretty hard to make them work, picked up a new box too. I just think I’d rather throw delightful Agonies on Oblits and they actually do better in cc and shooting and in my MoP lists they benefit a lot more. Very frustrating.

 

To date out of all that I play and play against, I really think I’d only play DG Termies again. They have what I thought we’d see in Chaos going forward... 4++, T5, unique weapon options and a heck of a Cc weapon in the flail and FnP to top it off.

Edited April 25, 2019 by Prot

[dice4thedicegod]

It does seem a bit strange that havocs, but not termies, got T5

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Prot, what about MoT and Weaver of Fates? It's not a 3++, but a 4++ isn't *terrible*.

[Mekhitar]

A basic squad is fairly cheap and good as long as you have the right expectations. I have a list full of assault threats, so enemy screen (especially small guard squads) really messes with my mojo in the movement phase. I use the terminators to clear up that screen.

 

To that end I take purge. they can use the strat to clear screen in Cc, and rerolling all hits means I don’t have to designate any support characters or psychic powers to them. They are literally just drop-and-use, letting me save my combos for other units. Because they can deepstrike, too, I have complete flexibility on how I position them.

 

I almost always plop them in cover. It’s a big deal for survivability. You get a 4+ against ap-3 that way, again, for free.

 

I take slaanesh so that I can double tap their Storm bolters for extra clear.

 

Then I try to leave at least 1 enemy model alive in charge range and pull off a Hail Mary charge. I don’t expect them to kill anything in CC (though if they can tag s vehicle for a turn that’s nice), I just want the extra move.

 

If they live, fantastic. If they die, no big deal - I just take them to clear the way for my engines, and they do a great job at that.

Edited April 26, 2019 by Mekhitar

[Panzer]

A 4++ is great on vehicles but not so much on Terminators I fear. Sure it would make Plasma slightly weaker against them but not by much and most anti-infantry weapons wouldn't even notice the difference between Terminators with a 5++ and Terminators with a 4++. With a 3++ stuff like Plasma would get weakened enough to be actually worth taking (other anti-infantry weapons would still not notice a difference though as AP-1 would still apply).

Edited April 26, 2019 by sfPanzer

[Scourged]

Meh. I love them, but Meh. Haven't used them much yet at the new points, but they've yet do do... Much of anything before dying. Their ability to delete chaff has been... Just okay. If that's their job... Maybe take bikes instead? Same firepower for cheaper, and you can add specials. Worse armor, better toughness, same wounds.

 

And I say this while also not being impressed by bikes, either. But in the little bit of experimentation I've done... They've been better. Sorta.

Edited April 26, 2019 by Scourged

[dice4thedicegod]

3++ sounds too good for basic terminators (and where would storm shields go? To 2++?)

 

I think my favored solution would be for termies to reduce incoming damage by 1, to a minimum of 1.

(Either that or W3... but I kinda prefer the damage reduction)

[Mekhitar]

I prefer termies to bikes because of the pinpoint delivery, better armor, avoidance of getting alphad because they are off the table, and ease of getting cover. You can shrug off ap-1 when sitting in a ruin.

 

They can’t reposition like bikes, though, so if you make one little positioning error it’s really unforgiving.

Edited April 26, 2019 by Mekhitar

[Prot]

3++ sounds too good for basic terminators (and where would storm shields go? To 2++?)

 

I think my favored solution would be for termies to reduce incoming damage by 1, to a minimum of 1.

(Either that or W3... but I kinda prefer the damage reduction)

 

If you're referring to my post, I'm not saying they should just 'be 3++'. I'm saying the squad needs access to it. (Be it stormshields, a chaos mark, a piece of blackstone tied to their foreheads, or whatever). This is why I referenced Deathwatch.

 

Deathwatch is the marine problem in a nutshell. Deathwatch (to me) come the closest to solving the 'marine issue' I see in 8th. In an edition where Xenos have largely been reinvented, we (all marine players) are still driving around in metal boxes with 5 superhumans (only one can hold the fancy gun) with modest hand guns and the superior armour doesn't do great things anymore with -AP/multidamage on too many things. 

 

Termies are still the 5 man refrigerator unit that's supposed to come down and change the world by being unstoppable forces of evil (Chaos in our case). Bullgryn do this, not termies. 

 

For the record this is a conversation that I really, really try to avoid because it gets ugly so fast, and champions of power armour will tell me differently. There is now soooo much data out there, and my own practical, competitive, personal experience it's really hard to change how I'm thinking about this (I admit.. stubborn).

 

BUT that's why I am bringing up the bright light at the end of the tunnel ; Deathwatch. I played Deathwatch while they were horrible, and resided with Grey Knights as worst faction. Literally the worst faction in competitive 40K.  As soon as that FAQ came out, their world changed, and that area of the Bolter and Chainsword got a LOT busier.

 

What happened? 2 pt, stormshields.  Deathwatch still have a lot of problems with armour but for the sake of our termie conversation I believe this is still the closest thing we will ever see to a one sentence solution. That's why I mention Deathguard Blightlords. They do it differently but man.... how many people here have tried using 10 Blightlords and watched your opponent try to shift them off an objective?  T5, 4++, FnP.

 

Keep in mind even with Beta Bolters, and the odd Blightlauncher, these guys aren't in turn wrecking face for their points.... but these DG stinkers are  stronger than the common cold.

 

That's what Terminators are -supposed- to feel like (for someone like me who grew up in the infancy of 40K anyway.)

Edited April 26, 2019 by Prot

[dice4thedicegod]

Sorry prot, I was responding to sfpanzer.

 

I agree with you that giving chaos termies access to storm shields would be a big help.

 

 

I started during rogue trader era, so marines and termies were T3 and power armor only 4+ and even lasguns and bolters had -1ap! Everything died! So 8th is progress - just could maybe get tweaked a little!

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Hammernators see very little play except as individual bullet sponges in Wolf armies so as i ponder this I wonder if giving Chaos Terminators stormshields would increase their table time.

[dice4thedicegod]

Depends on allowed load out. If you could swap a chain axe or combi bolter for a storm shield on even just one in every 5 termies...

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Storm shields wouldn't do all that much about high ROF multi-damage weapons like the things you find on Missilesides. Wouldn't help against Disintigrators or Reaper Launchers all that much either because the ROF is just so high and every failed save is a dead Terminator. Blightlords are so nasty because they have T5 and a wound-ignoring Mechanic in addition to the save.

 

Deathwatch are great because they can stave off antitank weapons with the Storm Shields, stay off the table in some cases to avoid early overwounding, AND can match the enemy's rate of fire with added quality on top. They only need to stay alive long enough to win the shooting duel with a hail of 2+ wounding Storm Bolters or some Frag Cannons.

 

Every time I've faced regular DW marines, I kill them just fine via overwounding, despite Storm Shields. It's the deep striking and the return fire with wound mods that are the big problems, which is why I've found Primaris DW to be just as nasty, though they get their durability from additional wounds and longer ranges of engagement instead of 3++. Granted, some Eldar players might hate the Storm Shields more, since they take away lots of Doom/Bladestorm shenanigans, but rate of fire and wound mods are still king IMO.

 

Back in third edition, the problems were similar. They based the edition around Marines and then.....made every new weapon in every non-marine army with profiles tailor-made for killing Marines, and many of those would kill Termies too. Even choppas, for crying out loud. Marine armies that had Toughness boosts, fast transports (including bikes), and wound-ignoring mechanics eventually made up for it. Drop pods being actually available in plastic and in the codex were a game changer. Something similar seems to have been a problem back in RT, though Terminators had kind of a heyday in 2nd ed when they saved on 2d6.

 

Bottom line is GW needs to really look at armor's effectiveness as an advantage and how they want that to be expressed. One of the reasons that Eldar were so dominant for so long was that their firepower tends to just level the playing field despite their perceived frailty. They don't wear much armor because their weapons would render it pointless. It's there in the fluff so that's OK....unfortunately, from a game perspective, they were balanced as if having a weak save actually mattered compared to an opponent with a 3+ when that 3+ would almost never come into play due to AP or, even if it did, would be overwounded by Eldar armies that could fire 2-3 shots per Marine in the opposing army, every turn. Now Marines at least get some kind of save most times, but the over-wounding problem is actually worse between Eldar, Orks, Guard, and Tau.

 

Terminators need some kind of durability enhancement that affects their two main weaknesses, overwounding and multi-damage weapons. With the size of games that exist now, saves aren't going to cut it for a high value unit that WILL attract enough shots to overwound it to death at 2W apiece....not as long as 1's always fail. That said, I'm thinking Toughness boosts, damage penalties, or additional wounds are in order....all of them exist on other units. GW just needs to figure out what to use. 3 Wounds have been a huge difference for Paladins at their points cost, so there is at least some type of precedent.

Edited April 26, 2019 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Brother Talarian]

I’ve have a couple games with a group of 10 combi-plasma termies. They dish out a nice amount of dmg. Accompanied by a sorc that gives them DA they’re a bit more resilient. They could definitely benefit from being more survivable, even T5 would be nice.

 

That said my meta isn’t incredibly competitive so it’s ncie to be able to field them. I have yet to try the 10 man with beseeched by the gods and giving them all the godly buffs. -1 to hit, 4++, 5+++ in some cover would make for a very solid firing base imo. Big investment, but super cool :)

[BrainFireBob]

Give them -1 to all damage, min 1.

 

Also Chaos Cataphractii. MoT, Weaver-there's your 3++

[Prot]

Prot, what about MoT and Weaver of Fates? It's not a 3++, but a 4++ isn't *terrible*.

I haven’t tried that. Honestly I’m a bit burned out on the Termies right now. I’m just staying away from them right now because I have to use the buffing abilities on Havocs and Oblits.... or even Daemon engines. I just don’t find the Termies doing enough to keep.

 

Side note; last game I got railroaded by a Rhino. Stuck 3 rounds in cc with a Rhino lol. (1 Fist, 4 chainaxes).

[Panzer]

Sorry prot, I was responding to sfpanzer.

 

 

And I was responding to Iron Father Ferrum who was responding to Prot. :P

[Prot]

Although I never said Storm Shields, I would take Termies again if I had access to a 3++. I’d make it work with delightful agonies. The loadout is good, but they just really aren’t surviving nearly as well as they should.

 

I may be spoiled by Deathwatch and Blightlords, but for now I’m putting them away. I had originally hoped the FAQ might bring something new to the table.

[Scourged]

 

Prot, what about MoT and Weaver of Fates? It's not a 3++, but a 4++ isn't *terrible*.

I haven’t tried that. Honestly I’m a bit burned out on the Termies right now. I’m just staying away from them right now because I have to use the buffing abilities on Havocs and Oblits.... or even Daemon engines. I just don’t find the Termies doing enough to keep.

 

Side note; last game I got railroaded by a Rhino. Stuck 3 rounds in cc with a Rhino lol. (1 Fist, 4 chainaxes).

 

I have tried this on Terminators and Possessed. Plus a bit of dabbling with Tzeentch daemons. The 4++ is great on cheap troops en masse. But on 20+ point, 2 wound models? I haven't found it as useful. It doesn't do anything against massed small arms fire, which will still shred through Terminators just as effectively - my one friend who runs a TH/SS squad still is most terrified of my Cultists. So really, it will only matter for anything AP-3 or worse, which, yeah, is fairly common. But it doesn't really do enough to save them in the long run. You're boosting your survival by ~17% against plasma and disintegraters, which is nice. But if someone points an Autocannon at you, Weaver (or even a 3++ for that matter) won't do anything to help. 

 

I've seen it work on Scarab Occult, but that's a whole different beast. Because the Scarabs have their own psyker for Weaver, then their backup Sorcerer can give them Glamour on top of it. And if that sorcerer is Exalted (or a Prince), it's also giving the reroll aura (and a Prescience buff, if desired). And they have All is Dust to further boost their defense against AP. And they have better bolters. Yeah, they're more expensive and still require a bunch of buffing... but it's in an army that has a much easier time buffing, and they can actually get some work done with their bolters. 

 

Try as I might, they've never been that immovable brick wall that they're supposed to be. T5 matters a fair amount. It's what helped keep my Custodes alive longer, and has been surprisingly good on the new Havocs. But even on those Custodes, a 4++ only takes you so far... 

[brother_b]

Havocs T5 why? I love termies and don’t know what makes them good. At least my assault termies get storm shields but over all they’re lacking because of their super slow move.

 

I do like dropping regular termies on or near an important objective. They can be hard to shift and in that capacity probably do their best work.

Edited April 27, 2019 by brother_b

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

Prot, what about MoT and Weaver of Fates? It's not a 3++, but a 4++ isn't *terrible*.

I haven’t tried that. Honestly I’m a bit burned out on the Termies right now. I’m just staying away from them right now because I have to use the buffing abilities on Havocs and Oblits.... or even Daemon engines. I just don’t find the Termies doing enough to keep.

 

Side note; last game I got railroaded by a Rhino. Stuck 3 rounds in cc with a Rhino lol. (1 Fist, 4 chainaxes).

 

I have tried this on Terminators and Possessed. Plus a bit of dabbling with Tzeentch daemons. The 4++ is great on cheap troops en masse. But on 20+ point, 2 wound models? I haven't found it as useful. It doesn't do anything against massed small arms fire, which will still shred through Terminators just as effectively - my one friend who runs a TH/SS squad still is most terrified of my Cultists. So really, it will only matter for anything AP-3 or worse, which, yeah, is fairly common. But it doesn't really do enough to save them in the long run. You're boosting your survival by ~17% against plasma and disintegraters, which is nice. But if someone points an Autocannon at you, Weaver (or even a 3++ for that matter) won't do anything to help. 

 

I've seen it work on Scarab Occult, but that's a whole different beast. Because the Scarabs have their own psyker for Weaver, then their backup Sorcerer can give them Glamour on top of it. And if that sorcerer is Exalted (or a Prince), it's also giving the reroll aura (and a Prescience buff, if desired). And they have All is Dust to further boost their defense against AP. And they have better bolters. Yeah, they're more expensive and still require a bunch of buffing... but it's in an army that has a much easier time buffing, and they can actually get some work done with their bolters. 

 

Try as I might, they've never been that immovable brick wall that they're supposed to be. T5 matters a fair amount. It's what helped keep my Custodes alive longer, and has been surprisingly good on the new Havocs. But even on those Custodes, a 4++ only takes you so far... 

 

I've had a lot of success with Scarab Occult precisely because (like you said) the buffs they need are buffs your army was going to use as a core of its strategy anyway....and now with beta bolters, they can drop over 12 in away and shred multiple enemy squads with just one use of Vets. They also almost force your opponent to shoot INTO all of those buffs and waste damage potential because they cannot be ignored or they will continue shredding things.....or.....all of the buffs go into the 20 man Rubric phalanx that teleports to mid table and starts wrecking things and spreading over multiple objectives, leaving the Scarabs as the less apparent threat, hilariously, so they can still get work done.

 

I think basic Termies might work really well as Red Corsairs, maybe as a Khorne squad. Start on the table with a Dark Apostle providing -1 to be hit and cover or other stuff helping out. Then Advance 5+D6, Warp Time to repeat that, and then charge, with rerolls from the Icon. 

 

If you want to just stalk up the table murdering stuff, then use Alpha Legion or Night Lords + Apostle, Mark of Nurgle for Miasma, and then just roll forward enjoying your -3 and butchering chaff.

[Prot]

I also have played a lot of Scarab occult Termies as well but I didn’t want to bring them up because the total recipe for their success is just so different. Even then it can go sideways but they do have a very unique setup.