Psy-Bolt and Bolter Dicipline

[Sweetcurse]

If Psy-Bolt was improved would you prefer:

 

1- Free to use anytime but unable to combo with bolter discipline

2- Must burn a spell during psychic phase to activate psy-bolt

3- Reduce stratagem to 1cp.

 

Or something else?

Edited May 3, 2019 by Sweetcurse

[techsoldaten]

I'd rather it was just the standard for Grey Knights ammunition.

 

It's nice that every unit has storm bolters, but they're just storm bolters. Grey Knights are supposed to have all this incredible equipment, there's not much that differentiates them from the rest of the Imperium.

[Panzer]

4. Just a straight upgrade to Bolters like it's for TSons.

[Captain Coolpants]

I'd like to activate it with a psychic cast. But ONLY if you're allowed multiple casts.

If not.. Then id just rather pay points for it

[Corvus Fortis]

I'd like it to be inbuilt with choice of using either +1S, or -1 rend. I don't belive GK will ever get a pseudo-Heavy Bolter on each model just for 2 points. 

[Waking Dreamer]

Yeah, Deathwatch lost their ability to combo Bolter Discipline with SIA, which for the most part they feel is okay. Bolter Discipline is really good for our TDA and while having to pay more upfront for psybolts as a wargear upgrade is interesting (like in previous editions) - GW will have to standardised that upgrade cost with the existing 10pt Heavy Bolter. Very unlikely as it would be an expensive upgrade for an already expensive army. Yikes!

 

Psychic activation would be much less taxing for a GK army and require less retroactive balancing issues compared to a wargear point upgrade. Let's be honest, GW is unlikely to give us better smite. Whatever the play-testers did during GK matches in preparation for 8Ed - scared the heck out of GW with the idea of any full smite combo with a GK army! So, with Rule of One still in play, it gives GK units something to cast after Sanctic attempts when out of 12" smite range. They're supposed to be psychically-enhanced bullets, so why not enhance them during the psychic phase? Multiple casts, starts at WC 6, increases by 1 for subsequent casts.

 

Otherwise the option with the most precedent, a stratagem adjustment for: 1CP/3CP for 1 or 2 unit activation respectively, per shooting phase.

Edited May 3, 2019 by Waking Dreamer

[Panzer]

 They're supposed to be psychically-enhanced bullets, so why not enhance them during the psychic phase? Multiple casts, starts at WC 6, increases by 1 for subsequent casts.

Because they are supposed to be produced beforehand and not just some on the fly enchantment? :P

 

Joking aside I can see that Stormbolter with a permanent upgrade could be an issue. Then again while Grey Knights get 21ppm Strike Squads with some neat melee potential and Stormbolter, TSons get 24ppm Rubric Marines with AP-2 Bolter, All is Dust and a 5++ so it's not like there isn't room for improvement for a few points. ^^

[Waking Dreamer]

I already know this. It's meant to be a simplified gameplay rule / mechanic.

 

Which actually sits better for me anyway, rather than getting into the grimdark of the amount of blood from the innocent, required to consecrate just one bolter round. 

 

Let's not get started on how much investment / psykers / lives is required to give Grey Knights their +1 to the Deny the Witch roll.   

Edited May 4, 2019 by Waking Dreamer

[Waking Dreamer]

Come to think of it, based on the lore Grey Knights don't use psybolt ammo all the time either. While all their wargear is scared as a standard. Consecrated bolter rounds, imbued with psionic energy is that much more rare...

[TheMostGood]

When discussing Psybolt ammo, there's a couple of things that I think GW should bear in mind. 

 

1) Tying important DPS abilities to CP, on a CP starved army, is pretty punishing. They should make it so that GK cannot ally with anyone (save for assassins or maybe SoB), but increase their CP in some capacity to compensate. So keep it a stratagem, but increase CPs for GK and see how that works. 

2) Next step would be to remove Psybolt ammo off the stratagem section and on to a psychic power. It has the same rules as other abilities (once per turn). Then test that and see how that plays. 

3) Finally, try making it a point upgrade that you buy instead of a test.
 

 

I think number two would be the ideal option. Keeping it at CP, even if we had more CP to use, is too limiting. We end up never using any other ability because we don't have enough points to work with, which is a shame.

 

Making it a point upgrade, on an army that is already really tight on points to begin with, is also pretty limiting. This would also lead to target priority for your opponent too. They'd just go after the unit that has all the shooting upgrades on it. 

 

Making it a psychic power keeps the limiting factor that the original stratagem has (once per turn), while also making it "not guaranteed" (more or less since you have to cast it). This also pairs well with other abilities that the army has. So, for example, you could gate a max squad of strikes, then have a unit already up the field cast Astral Aim on them, and then have the strikes cast Psybolt on themselves. 

 

I feel like one of the major things missing with GK is that they are a psyker heavy army that doesn't really have interesting psychic stuff to cast (at least not all the time). 

 

Psybolt ammo should also augment and modify our special weapons too. We lack the ability to really take out T7-8 models and vehicles. We have no melta and no plasma type equivalent except through vehicles. 

 

Casting Psybolt on our special weapons should change their profile for anti-tank type shooting as well. 

[Waking Dreamer]

I feel like one of the major things missing with GK is that they are a psyker heavy army that doesn't really have interesting psychic stuff to cast (at least not all the time). 

 

Psybolt ammo should also augment and modify our special weapons too. We lack the ability to really take out T7-8 models and vehicles. We have no melta and no plasma type equivalent except through vehicles. 

 

Casting Psybolt on our special weapons should change their profile for anti-tank type shooting as well.

 

If it were a psychic power, would there be a different power for GK special weapons? Like how they are 2 separate stratagems currently?

[Biscuittzz]

I think it should be payed for as an upgrade, but already baked into the cost of each unit ala SIA for DW. Of course the units should be repointed at the same time but I think it should be baked in anyway.

 

Psybolt ammunition is specially consecrated ammo. The psilencer is the weapon that shoots slivers/bullets made of pure psychic energy if I'm not mistaken.

[TheMostGood]

 

I feel like one of the major things missing with GK is that they are a psyker heavy army that doesn't really have interesting psychic stuff to cast (at least not all the time). 

 

Psybolt ammo should also augment and modify our special weapons too. We lack the ability to really take out T7-8 models and vehicles. We have no melta and no plasma type equivalent except through vehicles. 

 

Casting Psybolt on our special weapons should change their profile for anti-tank type shooting as well.

If it were a psychic power, would there be a different power for GK special weapons? Like how they are 2 separate stratagems currently?

 

 

Yes. Much like how the Riptide has a separate profile if the model uses its Nova Reactor for its main gun. 

 

It would allow GW to use the same models while giving them increase functionality on the battle field. 

 

It would also make it so special weapons would be useful on our infantry again. 

[Plasmablasts]

I like the idea of making Psy-bolt Ammo and Psychic Onslaught psychic powers. That feels to me like a fluffy solution, is a good buff to shooting (the extra strength won’t always help, but the AP-1 is handy) and ameliorates the restricted range of powers. I don’t think it would be overpowered as it’s similar to Hammerhand in effect.

[Trevak Dal]

I'd like it to be inbuilt with choice of using either +1S, or -1 rend. I don't belive GK will ever get a pseudo-Heavy Bolter on each model just for 2 points.

As much as they cost, it wouldn't do any harm for them to have pseudo heavy Bolters

[Plasmablasts]

For purposes of comparison to mini-Smite, I mathammered the effect of Psybolt Ammo and Psychic Onslaught on a few scenarios. First values are without the buff, second with.

 

5 stormbolters, rapid fire range:

 

Vs tactical Marines - 2.22 > 4.44 kills

Vs Terminators - 0.56 > 1.48 kills

Vs Leman Russ - 0.74 > 2.22 wounds

 

4 Psilencers, moved:

 

Vs Tactical Marines - 2 > 4 kills

Vs Terminators- 0.75 > 2 kills

Vs Leman Russ - 1.33 > 4 wounds

 

4 Psycannon, moved:

 

Vs Tactical Marines- 2.67 > 4.44 kills

Vs Terminators - 0.89 > 1.67 kills

Vs Leman Russ - 1.33 > 2.67 wounds

 

(For the Psilencer, I assumed each unsaved wound would cause 0.75 kills against Terminators, as on average every third unsaved wound will only inflict D1, so will require an additional unsaved wound to kill. Against the Leman Russ (tank, not Primarch...), I assumed an average of D2.)

 

So, for these scenarios, use of the Strategem (or proposed psychic power) does an extra 1.33 to 2.67 wounds: roughly double the effect of mini-Smite. I think WC 6 would be fair, given that mini-Smite can be attempted multiple times per turn and works against invulnerable saves as well.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Plasmablasts

[Panzer]

For purposes of comparison to mini-Smite, I mathammered the effect of Psybolt Ammo and Psychic Onslaught on a few scenarios. First values are without the buff, second with.

 

5 stormbolters, rapid fire range:

 

Vs tactical Marines - 2.22 > 4.44 kills

Vs Terminators -

 

If you wanted to show the benefit of such a psychic power then you honestly need to post way more data to show anything. Right now you gave us two numbers without any context nor conclusion.

 

 

This is how you should do it properly:

 

 

(forgive the german notation aka , instead of .)

 

So we can see only against Marines and Terminators the current Psychic Onslaught equals the return of the small Smite GKs have access to. Against every other target it's actually weaker in a 5 man squad it's slightly better than the small Smite GKs have access to against pretty much everything except for Rhinos as long as you are in Rapid Fire range (or use it on Terminators), against Marines and Terminators even about twice as good and in a 10 man squad it's a LOT better than the small Smite.

Edited May 6, 2019 by sfPanzer

[Plasmablasts]

Thanks very much sfPanzer.

 

Are your data for a five-man Squad (I.e. five stormbolters)? If so, shouldn’t the number of shots be doubled (and hence also the amount of damage caused)?

 

(Sorry - just realised you must have replied to my premature first posting! The problem of stubby fingers on a smartphone...)

Edited May 6, 2019 by Plasmablasts

[Panzer]

Thanks very much sfPanzer.

 

Are your data for a five-man Squad (I.e. five stormbolters)? If so, shouldn’t the number of shots be doubled (and hence also the amount of damage caused)?

 

(Sorry - just realised you must have replied to my premature first posting! The problem of stubby fingers on a smartphone...)

Hah, yeah that's actually a mistake on my part. I'll edit it and even add the calculation for a 10 man squad since the efficiency should raise the bigger the squad is. I felt the numbers were too small but only checked the math instead of the number of shots. 

[Plasmablasts]

 

 

Thanks very much sfPanzer.

 

Are your data for a five-man Squad (I.e. five stormbolters)? If so, shouldn’t the number of shots be doubled (and hence also the amount of damage caused)?

 

(Sorry - just realised you must have replied to my premature first posting! The problem of stubby fingers on a smartphone...)

Hah, yeah that's actually a mistake on my part. I'll edit it and even add the calculation for a 10 man squad since the efficiency should raise the bigger the squad is. I felt the numbers were too small but only checked the math instead of the number of shots.

Thanks!

 

Given the range of mini-Smite, only rapid fire range is really relevant for comparison. It does also highlight how mini-Smite fails to scale-up for larger squads whereas “buff” powers like Hammerhand, Astral Aim and this proposed change get better the bigger the squad.

[Beams]

Edit: nvmind. If I didn't do it, I would never be able to stop thinking about it:

 

Rana quick sim for 10,000 trials, a squad of 5 grey knights

 

Against Marines (norm@l)

0x978

1x2302

2x2826

3x2054

4x1156

5x502

6x142

7x34

8x5

 

Vs Marines, psybolt

0x69

1x379

2x926

3x1744

4x2119

5x1952

6x1394

7x828

8x370

9x151

10x48

11x17

12x2

 

As you can see, it moves the median from 2 to 4, and spreads the distribution so that the chance of doing 0 unsaved wounds is significantly less (69/10000, .69% vs 979/10000, or 9.79%)

 

Against Guardsmen, there is less change since Str 4 vs t3 and Str 5 vs t3 is almost identical, and the rolling mass 5 saves vs mass 6 saves isn't that big of a difference -- either way, your ending up with median if 6 (normal) or 7 (psybolts) dead guarsmen, since sixes and fives aren't high probabilities (16 and 33) and aren't going to have as many "lucky" rolls where everything comes up a save, like a 3 or a 2 armor save does.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Beams

[Sweetcurse]

So, basically those numbers support making it a psychic power? Almost makes me want to say just make it a free upgrade.

[FallenSoldiers]

If 1k sons can get Inferno Bolts why can’t we get PsyBolts standard?

[Beams]

So, basically those numbers support making it a psychic power? Almost makes me want to say just make it a free upgrade.

I'm not sure. As a strategem, it struggles to be used. As a psychic powers, it would be used constantly on a single squad of interceptors, most likely, and would be useful.

 

As a free upgrade, it would push GK up a notch vs other armies, but especially against Marines and other toughness 4 or 5 armies. It wouldn't be game breaking, since GK are so over costed in general, but would definitely prevent them from getting cheaper, I think. I don't think it would be enough to take then out of bottom tier, but it would reduce the difference between them and mid tier significantly, but wouldn't help vs say Dark Eldar who are in Vogue right now, or Guardsmen backed by knights.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Beams

[Panzer]

Considering that the ammunition is supposed to be especially good against Daemons a rework might be in order to be honest. It makes not much sense for it to have AP when Daemons don't rely on armour but it would make a lot of sense to ignore or worsen invulnerable saves. Likewise S5 makes not much difference to S4 against Daemons since most of them are T3 or T6-7.