136 replies to this topic

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

Basically, who do you think deserves their own Codex and why? Some Chapters don't need their own Codex at all, because their organization is Codex-compliant and they don't have special things the way some other Chapters do. Some Chapters, however, have different organization and make good candidates for their own Codices.

 

Black Templars, for example. Now, I don't play Black Templars, but they definitely deserve a Codex the most out of ANY current "Codex: Ultramarines" chapter. COMPLETELY different organization and doctrines of warfare, combined with an intensely cool aesthetic and lore, as well as overall popularity. They have special units all their own, and they have their own version of a Captain entirely separate from Codex Chapters, so... I feel they should get their own Codex.

[bolvar]

As a BT, I fully support what you said.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

While I'd love the hell out of a BT codex, and know for a fact we have the fluff and unit potential to fill one, I've recently started considering something more along the lines of a Dorn codex. Take all of the BT, IF, and CF units out of the primary codex. Flesh out all 3 chapters with their own expanded chapter tactics, characters, and units. Then include special rules that they can get if any Dorn successor chapters team up. Sword and Shield tactics/strategems for IF and BT working together. That seems the most fair. I want a codex, but I don't want to leave behind my brothers in UM hell. Clear out that space and let the Iron Hands, White Scars, and Ravenguard expand out to take their place. 

Edited by Marshal Valkenhayn, 04 May 2019 - 04:10 AM.

[MARK0SIAN]

Definitely Black Templars! I’d say they’re arguably more varied than a couple of the Chapters that already have their own codex.

It’s hard to say which of the other chapters should get one. I don’t think any of them are sufficiently divergent or fleshed out to justify one at the moment. Don’t get me wrong I’d love to see them add in loads more cool stuff to someone like White Scars to make them a fleshed out force, I just don’t think they’re there yet.

[FlamingDeth]

Still of the opinion that all loyalist marines should be rolled into one book with Index Astartes articles if they need anything extra. The release cycle gets so bloated with Marine books that it's absurd. Release separate Cadian/Catachan/Steel Legion/whatever books instead, each of those forces is orders of magnitude bigger than all the marines put together and way more different in fighting doctrine.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

The units shared between guards are usually more similar than specialized marine units, despite how many millions more of them might exist. I wouldn't speak out against guards getting their own books, but with most of them using the same orders mechanics, many of the same units, and all spamming the same tanks? You can't seriously tell me that all the Grey Knight, Space wolf, and Dark Angel special stuff wouldn't take up more space in a codex than the various Guard special units. and each of those armies plays vastly different. Hell, Black Templars don't even have a mechanic to fill in for no psychic, which they really should. Space Marines are balanced with psychers in mind. Taking that away without giving any sort of buff makes no sense, and if the mechanic is suitably good it'd likely make the army play a lot differently than 2 guard armies would.

 

Don't play favorites. If you can be behind splitting guard, you can't seriously expect to pack all the SM stuff into one book. 

[Subtleknife]

Some Chapters don't need their own Codex at all, because their organization is Codex-compliant and they don't have special things the way some other Chapters do.

This is incorrect. Any chapter could have their own codex because all it takes is GW to flesh it out more.

For example, Ultramarines have the victrix guard that could be fleshed out a lot more, invictarus suzerains, tetrarchs etc. The list can go on. Alternatively, we see that black templars can sit just fine in the normal codex. So in an ideal world I would love all of the main space marines founding chapters to get their own codex. However this would be a mammoth undertaking. What I think would be much more realistic is the 30k route. Which I would be happy with too.

But to answer your question....codex ultramarines.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Heresy has proven no chapter needs their own Codex, just a better army list withbuilt in variation. Then a second book to provide special characters and chapter special rules in a small five to six page spread.

[Lord Marshal]

No more than we have now and the case could be made for some of those ending up on the chopping block.

 

Like Marshal Rohr says, 30k shows you have solid lists for all First Founding chapters without having to devote several more books to them that clog up the already rammed release schedule even more.

 

Give Black Templars a page of Not!Acts of Faith and away we go.

[Volt]

Black Templars don't need a codex of their own because their units can be easily covered by just some simple rules swaps with a Tactical Squad by allowing them to take melee weapons, power weapons, and add scouts to the squad. Primaris-Wise all you need is for Intercessors to be able to take Chainswords and Heavy Bolt Pistols (ideally for ALL factions too) and you'd be even more golden for the BT's.

 

Of the Chapters that actually could benefit from their own Codex it'd be the Iron Hands because they have a completely different structure. BT's are still roughly codex if you squint hard enough and have units with cross comparability with what's already in the book. Iron Hands should be more akin to Death Guard than anything else, and even have zombified cyborg terminator squads and sergeants of any squad can even get Terminator armor if they have the honors. Plus Iron Fathers really need their own datasheet as they don't have much in common with Captains, unlike Black Templar Marshals.

[sfPanzer]

Who deserves a Codex on their own? Everyone. I think every subfaction could potentially get an awesome standalone Codex.

Who I want to get a Codex on their own is a whole different topic though. It's easier to justify Space Marines because we got such dense background fluff for them but I honestly don't want to see a standalone Codex for most of them. I'd be fine with them getting extensive supplements to distinguish them from eachother more like we got in late 7th (complete with chapter unique units and models). Black Templars would be great with their own Codex though since they are arguably further away from the standard Codex structure than Blood Angels.

Then again ... do we really need even more Space Marine Codexes? Warhammer 40k already feels like it's actually Warhammer Space Marine anyway. So my "vote" would go to some of the Xenos subfactions. Ynnari with a separate Codex would've been interesting. Farsight Enclaves as well if GW would do more for them than with the 7e FSE Minidex (these days it would just be a White Dwarf article). I'd love to see Kroot getting their own Codex too.

Edited by sfPanzer, 04 May 2019 - 09:56 AM.

[Sete]

Just saying if BT do not deserve a codex neither should BA and DA, or anyone else for what it matters. The arguments you have for BT can be easily applied to everyone else.
With primaris roll everything into one book with less bloat, no need for 250 Ultra named caracthers. HH works with :cussloads of legions.

Edited by Sete, 04 May 2019 - 09:59 AM.

[Marshal Rohr]

Guys, seriously, you gotta learn to love the old index Astartes model. Imagine if the baseline troops choices weren’t just INTERCESSORS! TACTICAL SQUAD! KAPOW! But a single entry for a oldmarine squad with chainswords and Boltpistols, bolters and bolt pistols, or all three? Which points for each option. Space marines should be like an ice cream shop. You’ve got a base flavor you mix toppings into to make something tasty and unique and more importantly than anything else reflective of your army’s lore.

[Lord Marshal]

Just saying if BT do not deserve a codex neither should BA and DA, or anyone else for what it matters. The arguments you have for BT can be easily applied to everyone else.
With primaris roll everything into one book with less bloat, no need for 250 Ultra named caracthers. HH works with :cussloads of legions.

 

Oh believe me, I'd have no problems with Blood Angels and Dark Angels being rolled into one codex either.

[Marshal Rohr]

One Codex to rule them all. One Codex to define them. One Codex to bring them all, and options to fight with them.

Edited by Marshal Rohr, 04 May 2019 - 10:03 AM.

[Volt]

Just saying if BT do not deserve a codex neither should BA and DA, or anyone else for what it matters. The arguments you have for BT can be easily applied to everyone else.
With primaris roll everything into one book with less bloat, no need for 250 Ultra named caracthers. HH works with :cussloads of legions.

DA, BA, and SW have a ton of special units to differentiate them from other codices with unique Wargear. At the end of the day all the Black Templars are is

 

1) Tactical squads with an assortment of boltguns, chainswords, power weapons, and neophyte meat shields

2) Sword Brethren squads which are little different from company veterans/standard terminator squads

3) Emperor's Champions

 

And that's it. They don't really have special units or vehicles. The only thing that's tricky to replicate in the base codex is Crusader Squads, which is why they have their own unit sheet. But otherwise there's not much at all to set them apart. Meanwhile all Iron Hands should really be toughness 5 and movement 5" because they are that much different from the standard marine format.

[Sete]

Neither did DA before GW expanded their fluff and range.
Arguing that BT aren't that different, while fluff wise they never followed the codex, and using IH as an example is a bit facetious.

And to avoid beating the dead horse even more because i already had this discussion over and over, its very easy to grab any chapter and make it different. If the base units use the same equipment, in the end they can all go in one book. Now defending a chapter is not that different and can get folded in a book while saying, oh no but my 1st company that also uses terminator armour is a completely different, sound a bit off. If folded treatment is good enough for some, its good enough for everyone.

Edited by Sete, 04 May 2019 - 10:21 AM.

[sfPanzer]

Especially when the BA stuff isn't THAT special either. What do we have? Fancy Jump Pack melee unit 1 and 2, Fancy melee Dreadnought 1 and 2, a Predator variant and lots of special characters. It's not that different, really.

Literally the only reason why I don't want BA to be part of the vanilla Marine Codex is because the vanilla Marine Codex is already the Codex with the biggest page count in the game (by far) and because I fear that GW would go full derp and do the same thing they did to BT back then (sorry, we don't have much but what do we have I'd like to keep ).

[Tymell]

None. I'm 100% with Marshal Rohr on this one, and have been as long as I can remember. One marine codex to rule them all. A lot of the chapter variations can be covered with unit options, and a combined codex can still have chapter-specific entries too.

 

Background books, now that's another story. I'm all in favour of more of those to flesh out different sub-factions. But in terms of the rules, I've never seen a real need for separate books.

[Sete]

Exactly sfpanzer, no one likes to lose stuff.
If GW rolled all main chapters into one book would free more focus to GK at least i think. I feel you boys.
But whatever be will be.

Edited by Sete, 04 May 2019 - 10:26 AM.

[Emicus]

Ultramarines.

No longer having to share pages with other chapters we will be rid of 'vanilla boi syndrome'

[sfPanzer]

Ultramarines.

No longer having to share pages with other chapters we will be rid of 'vanilla boi syndrome'

No you wouldn't. It would still be the vanilla Marine Codex. Just now you gave Ultramarines more spotlight.

[Reinhard]

On the one hand I see the appeal of having as few marine codices as possible and I'd be all for it if there was any guarantee of fair and equal spotlight for everyone if it went that way... Experience however has taught me otherwise however.

[KhorneHunter57x]

Neither did DA before GW expanded their fluff and range.

Nor did the Blood Angels, for that matter. A handful of Special Characters and three unique units (Baal Pred, Furioso, and Death Company).


I think a reasonable comparison would be to look at what has happened on the Chaos side in recent years - both the Death Guard and Thousand Sons used to be a dude, a squad, and a special rule or two in C:CSM...until they each got their own Codex and an expanded range. Before that, they were each similar to where the Templars are now, or where the Blood Angels and Dark Angels used to be ca. 4th Edition.

The Black Templars currently have more unique stuff than either the Death Guard or Thousand Sons had before they each got their own Codex, so it is silly to point to what unit options the Templars currently have and say 'look here, they don't have a lot so they don't deserve more!' Instead, ask if the fluff would justify a separate codex and more unique units, just as the Death Guard, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Thousand Sons each got.

[sfPanzer]

 

Neither did DA before GW expanded their fluff and range.

Nor did the Blood Angels, for that matter. A handful of Special Characters and three unique units (Baal Pred, Furioso, and Death Company).

5 actually. You forgot about the Sanguinary Guard and the Deathcomapny Dread. 6 if you count the Librarian Dread too. However Blood Angels got named already, he knows about them lol