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Who do you think deserves a Codex of their own?

Adeptus Astartes Speculation

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#26
RandyB

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I agree with the above as follows:

 

Black Templars (disclaimer - I am a fan of the BT, but not yet a player)

Iron Hands - most teched out (see the new Iron Hands named character announced).

 

I also like the "Codex: Last Wall" idea. This would be an alternative to a dedicated Black Templars codex, however. In this context, each of the founding chapters so far less detailed - Imperial Fists, White Scars, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Iron Hands - would be justified in having their own codex. (OK, OK. The Ultramarines can have one, too.)

 

I would like to see a "Codex: YourGuys", containing rules for making your own chapters as something other than "published chapter with a different paint job". The main challenge there is balance - unbalanced rules would lead to such a codex being heavily reviled, no matter which way the balance fell.


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#27
Tymell

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Neither did DA before GW expanded their fluff and range.

Nor did the Blood Angels, for that matter. A handful of Special Characters and three unique units (Baal Pred, Furioso, and Death Company).

5 actually. You forgot about the Sanguinary Guard and the Deathcomapny Dread. 6 if you count the Librarian Dread too. However Blood Angels got named already, he knows about them lol

 

 

Those ones weren't in the BA's earlier 3rd ed. codex though, they were added later.


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#28
KhorneHunter57x

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Neither did DA before GW expanded their fluff and range.

Nor did the Blood Angels, for that matter. A handful of Special Characters and three unique units (Baal Pred, Furioso, and Death Company).

5 actually. You forgot about the Sanguinary Guard and the Deathcomapny Dread. 6 if you count the Librarian Dread too. However Blood Angels got named already, he knows about them lol

No I didn't. msn-wink.gif The Sanguinary Guard and plastic DC/Libby/Furioso Dread (along with other stuff - all-plastic Baal w/Flamestorm option) were part of their range expansion in 5th Edition.
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#29
Captain Idaho

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I personally believe all or nothing. We can make it work to have a Codex that works for all Chapters then some expansions for individuals as the 3rd edition or HH books.

Alternatively, the Chapters who are most popular should get stuff first. Black Templars seem big, as there's always the odd nutcase out there swinging his power maul about the gaming groups.

Ultramarines or rather Codex Ultramar seems like an obvious one as Guilliman is a big part of the lore.

And I don't want this to become a Classic vs Primaris discussion but I'd like a Codex Primaris release with a bunch of Primaris Chapters detailed therein. I say this because I recognise that Primaris is popular and folk should get support if they bought into it.

Let's see what the Primaris Chapters are like.

Let's make the 2 force a distinct. If you want Primaris in your Classic Marines force or vice versa, that's what Keywords are for ;)

Edited by Captain Idaho, 04 May 2019 - 12:38 PM.

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#30
War Angel

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all space marines could be the same codex and then just add a few entries for the special units and rules unique to the make up the difference.

Space wolves is the only chapter that makes sense to have its own codex, every single unit they have is different from the standard (minus Primaris but I imagine that will change)

Every chapter that’s in the codex now deserves more than what they have. It’s garbage that ultramarines have all the unique things and then we only get one special character IF WERE LUCKY! poor iron hands :( .
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#31
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Honestly, I'd like to see it done in the form of Index Astartes articles in White Dwarf like they did with Assassins and Ynnari.

All of at least the First Founding Chapters deserve a Codex. But it does become a logistics issue to actually give them all one.

But if you were to do so it would make sense to include notable successor Chapters with their own unique rules. One that comes to mind is the Carcharodons. Playing them with the Raven Guard chapter tactic doesn't feel very fluffy because they don't fight like that. They're more like loyal World Eaters than anything else.

#32
Iron Father Ferrum

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It's dangerous using the precedent of TS and DG to support a further separation of a loyal Chapters into standalone codices. I say this because TS/DG - and the presumed future WE/EC expansions - bring Chaos in line with the current loyalist army array. If we end up with five Chaos Marine codices, ie the Big Four and one for Undivided, compare that to the vanilla C:SM plus SW, DA, BA, GK, DW. Even if you discount the two Inquisitorial chapters, you've got room for one more independent codex to even out the numbers (and I'd place my bet on Templars there).
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#33
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Just saying if BT do not deserve a codex neither should BA and DA, or anyone else for what it matters. The arguments you have for BT can be easily applied to everyone else.
With primaris roll everything into one book with less bloat, no need for 250 Ultra named caracthers. HH works with :cussloads of legions.

DA, BA, and SW have a ton of special units to differentiate them from other codices with unique Wargear. At the end of the day all the Black Templars are is

1) Tactical squads with an assortment of boltguns, chainswords, power weapons, and neophyte meat shields
2) Sword Brethren squads which are little different from company veterans/standard terminator squads
3) Emperor's Champions

And that's it. They don't really have special units or vehicles. The only thing that's tricky to replicate in the base codex is Crusader Squads, which is why they have their own unit sheet. But otherwise there's not much at all to set them apart. Meanwhile all Iron Hands should really be toughness 5 and movement 5" because they are that much different from the standard marine format.

You missed the following 4 units;
Durandal Dreadnought (Furioso or Ironclad Variant) (French white dwarf)
Neophyte Ancient (Templar 4th Codex)
Biker Crusader Squads (Codex Armageddon)
Templar Assault Squad (4th Codex (we could take Power Weapons instead of normal specials))

None of those four save Durandal and Assault Squad are reasonably representable in Vanilla Codex. Through Assault Squad could be fixed by saying whenever a BT could take a Flamer they make take a Power Weapon instead.
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#34
Zephaniah Adriyen

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This thread certainly exploded. I'd like to add that I think there's a loose list of "Factions who deserve a Codex".

I've seen a few people talk about a "Codex: Last Wall" instead of a Codex: Black Templars. That actually sounds excellent to me. Distances the Crimson/Imperial Fists from Ultrasmurfs as well as BT. I firmly believe that getting as many Chapters out of Ultrasmurf Hell as possible should be a priority, starting with Chapters like the Black Templars, Iron Hands and Salamanders. Eventually, I'd like a Codex: Ultramarines to exist, so they can FINALLY have their own identity and I can stop ragging on them for being Vanilla Marines. (That honor will fall to the Imperial Fists.)

I also think that Exodites need to exist at all and that the other two Devout Legions (World Eaters and Emperor's Children) need to get Codices and Primarch models.


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#35
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Going back a bit, my point wasn't that guard all deserve different books, I don't think they do, it was that there's more variant in guard regiments and way more of them so they seem like more likely candidates than marines for multiple books. If you look at the main guard codex, Death Corp, and Elysians, all guard regiments are fluffwise as varied as those are, the only reason that they all share the same orders, command structure, and tank patterns is that GW haven't put in the time and effort to differentiate them. We're talking about billion man strong military forces of entire planets here.

As far as "unique marine units and formations" go, blah. Prior to the 6th Ed codex adding in the flyers, fancy speeders, and Deathwing/ravenwing knights what they had to differentiate them were a few special characters, force org shenanigans (of which codex marines could also do to a lesser extent, and was tied to the characters), and mixed veteran units. Someone said that Black Templar look like codex marines if you squint hard enough, and the same could be said of any marine chapter.

Anyways, I could get behind rolling all marine chapters into one book and then having a separate Primaris codex. They're bound to get a ton of new stuff and that is something that could actually help with bloat.
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#36
Bjorn Firewalker

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As someone who served as an aircraft maintenance crewman in the US Army, and was a hard core military otaku before that, I often feel, "I can design a better vehicle than THAT!" when reading the company's catalog. That feeling forced me to write my own Codex supplements- initially for the Iron Hands, due to my aforementioned obsession with military vehicles.

Naturally, I think Ferrus Manus' sons deserve their own Codex- at least a Codex supplement, to show the fruits of their close relations with the Adeptus Mechanicus. Hell, when I wrote my Codex supplement, I directly transplanted some units from Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus into it.
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Reasons to use the Steel Crusaders ('Codex: Space Marines' supplement): Because you think giving Sternguard Veterans a heavy bolter wtih special issue HEAVY BOLTER ammunition is ALMOST as much fun as shoehorning an Earthshaker cannon into a Land Raider.

 

Reasons to use the Iron-hearted Angels ('Codex: Blood Angels' supplement): Because you think the Librarian Dreadnought needs Furious Charge AND It Will Not Die to beat down a Chaos-worshiping punk and his Defiler, while a Stormraven needs a Vanquisher cannon to beat down this punk's Heldrake.


#37
RandyB

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As someone who served as an aircraft maintenance crewman in the US Army, and was a hard core military otaku before that, I often feel, "I can design a better vehicle than THAT!" when reading the company's catalog. That feeling forced me to write my own Codex supplements- initially for the Iron Hands, due to my aforementioned obsession with military vehicles.

Naturally, I think Ferrus Manus' sons deserve their own Codex- at least a Codex supplement, to show the fruits of their close relations with the Adeptus Mechanicus. Hell, when I wrote my Codex supplement, I directly transplanted some units from Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus into it.

 

There are a larger number of opportunities for "crossover" units than are implemented anywhere in the game at current. Adeptus Mechanicus for Iron Hands*, to be sure. Astra Militarum as chapter serfs. Black Templars with Adepta Sororita or vice versa, with or without Inquisition.

 

*Adeptus Mechanicus as Brood Brothers for Cult of the Bladed Cog, even.


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#38
Bjorn Firewalker

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I also like the "Codex: Last Wall" idea. This would be an alternative to a dedicated Black Templars codex, however.

I think this is best- a Codex under which all of Rogal Dorn's sons may be united, in deed and in purpose.

In this context, each of the founding chapters so far less detailed - Imperial Fists, White Scars, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Iron Hands - would be justified in having their own codex. (OK, OK. The Ultramarines can have one, too.)

Hopefully, these Chapters will have sufficient fan support to get Games Workshop to see there's profit in catering to them. How many [insert Legion name] players are there? How much money are they willing to spend in support of their Legion and its Primarch (if he still lives or will live again, with the Emperor's blessing)?

I would like to see a "Codex: YourGuys", containing rules for making your own chapters as something other than "published chapter with a different paint job".

Good idea.

The main challenge there is balance - unbalanced rules would lead to such a codex being heavily reviled, no matter which way the balance fell.

This is a serious problem, one requiring EXTENSIVE play-testing to fix- a serious problem when the writers will likely be local hobbyists, who may have difficulty propagating their works, finding others to play with for testing, or comparing results.

Edited by Bjorn Firewalker, 04 May 2019 - 05:11 PM.

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Reasons to use the Steel Crusaders ('Codex: Space Marines' supplement): Because you think giving Sternguard Veterans a heavy bolter wtih special issue HEAVY BOLTER ammunition is ALMOST as much fun as shoehorning an Earthshaker cannon into a Land Raider.

 

Reasons to use the Iron-hearted Angels ('Codex: Blood Angels' supplement): Because you think the Librarian Dreadnought needs Furious Charge AND It Will Not Die to beat down a Chaos-worshiping punk and his Defiler, while a Stormraven needs a Vanquisher cannon to beat down this punk's Heldrake.


#39
MARK0SIAN

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Going back a bit, my point wasn't that guard all deserve different books, I don't think they do, it was that there's more variant in guard regiments and way more of them so they seem like more likely candidates than marines for multiple books. If you look at the main guard codex, Death Corp, and Elysians, all guard regiments are fluffwise as varied as those are, the only reason that they all share the same orders, command structure, and tank patterns is that GW haven't put in the time and effort to differentiate them. We're talking about billion man strong military forces of entire planets here.

As far as "unique marine units and formations" go, blah. Prior to the 6th Ed codex adding in the flyers, fancy speeders, and Deathwing/ravenwing knights what they had to differentiate them were a few special characters, force org shenanigans (of which codex marines could also do to a lesser extent, and was tied to the characters), and mixed veteran units. Someone said that Black Templar look like codex marines if you squint hard enough, and the same could be said of any marine chapter.

Anyways, I could get behind rolling all marine chapters into one book and then having a separate Primaris codex. They're bound to get a ton of new stuff and that is something that could actually help with bloat.

I don’t think it’s as much a lack of effort from GW as to why they haven’t got multiple guard books. Rather it’s a lack of models. Aside from Catachan and Cadian it’s hard to make different regiments, you can’t really make Death Korps by kit bashing, you’ve got to use FW which is much too expensive for a lot of people.

Guard regiments might be varied but their basic model range isn’t. Space Marines on the other hand share a basic general appearance with chapter specific bits easily added on to the existing ones. Plus Space Marines are far more popular so there’s a business justification over guard too.

Edited by MARK0SIAN, 04 May 2019 - 05:22 PM.

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#40
Dracos

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If Blood Angels. Dark Angels, and Space Wolves are worthy of independent Codex then anyone can be ... and for Emperor sakes honestly just put the Ultramarines in a stand alone Codex. Please.

That said

I think Black Templar first and foremost are worthy (followed by Raven Guard) of an independent Codex due to specialized fighting styles. They both could be fleshed out by a true Codex. It would allow GW to really drill down into the BT crusader style giving them a flavor every bit as unique as the Wolves or Vamps.

Raven Guard (Raptors) because In My Opinion they are the closest to representing a more modern day (Reasonable Marine) fighting style. Fast light transports for boots on the ground and air support for taking out heavier armored targets (read as Knights ;))

One a Codex for the old ways and one Codex for the new.

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#41
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Know what? I'd push this even further and give each Legion a codex, with sections for their most known successors.

Codex: Dark Angels (DA, Consecrators...)

Codex: White Scars (I'll admit I am not versed in WS successors)

Codex: Space Wolves (SW, Wolf Spears)

Codex: Imperial Fists (IF, CF, BT, Executioners)

Codex: Iron Hands (IH, Red Talons, Sons of Medusa)

Codex: Blood Angels (BA, Flesh Tearers, Lamenters)

Codex: Ultramarines (UM, Fulminators, Silver Templars)

Codex: Salamanders (do they still have no successors in 11000 years?!)

Codex: Raven Guard (RG, Raptors, Carcharodons)
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#42
Bjorn Firewalker

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IIRC, in Epic, the White Scars didn't equip their Predator tanks with sponson-mounted weapons, because such equipment slowed down the tank. To give the Great Khan's sons more flavor, how about giving them a modification for the Rhino and tanks sharing its chassis (Hunters, Predators, Razorbacks, Stalkers, Whirlwinds, Vindicators), the way the Blood Angels do? Say a side-mounted anti-gravitic plates (occupying space where other Chapters would use for sponson-mounted weapons), which allow a Rhino or Rhino-based vehicle to ignore terrain that would otherwise impede it?

For more White Scars-specific Special Units, how about "Huntsman Bikers"- snipers with Ballistic Skill 2+, who ride specially equipped Scout Bikes and accompany the Master of the Hunt on his missions?

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Reasons to use the Steel Crusaders ('Codex: Space Marines' supplement): Because you think giving Sternguard Veterans a heavy bolter wtih special issue HEAVY BOLTER ammunition is ALMOST as much fun as shoehorning an Earthshaker cannon into a Land Raider.

 

Reasons to use the Iron-hearted Angels ('Codex: Blood Angels' supplement): Because you think the Librarian Dreadnought needs Furious Charge AND It Will Not Die to beat down a Chaos-worshiping punk and his Defiler, while a Stormraven needs a Vanquisher cannon to beat down this punk's Heldrake.


#43
Kinstryfe

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The reality that nobody wants to hear about their favorite chapters is that pretty much any of them can be represented by Codex: Space Marines and a couple of extra data sheets. If I had to break the current systrm down I would propose something like:

Codex Adeptus Astartes, which covers the Ultramarines and your more Codex compliant chapters with a few extra datasheets to cover HQs or divergent units for the likes of the Ultramarines, Salamanders, and Imperial Fists.

Codex: Hounds of the Emperor, covering more assault or fast attack based Chapters. Specialized squads, stratagems, and tactics for things like Crusader squads, Primaris Vanguard, and the like. Focus on Chapters like the Black Templars, White Scars, and Raven Guard.

Codex: Disciples of the Omnissiah, covering the likes of the Iron Hands as well as many of the less common vehicle and dreadnaught variants. Essentially a focus on vehicles of the Astartes.

In the true fashion of the Codex Astartes promoting best practices in all types of warfare, all three books will essentially be mix and match except for Chapter specific datasheets. The end result will be good and bad. Bad: You will need 3 books to get access to everything that Space Marines can take. Good: GW would be able to give a much larger number of chapters representation thru datasheets for First Founding Chapters and tactics for more later founding chapters like what CSM just did with their updates. The big downside is that it would pretty much require a new edition to make happen.
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#44
redmapa

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Honestly? None, Forgeworld proved you can have 18 armies in two books and have each play differently. If GW could follow that design model then you would have one generic list for all in one book and another for special units, characters and detachments/stratagems, I would even go further and have chapter tactics be like they were in 3rd, a series of bonuses and limits from which you build your army so you could have your agressive UM or Deathwing with its own chapter tactics, a Mantis Warriors based on ambushes or a mechanized BT, maybe you want a cursed founding chapter!.

With Primaris homogenizing the armies I dont see why you cant do something like this, it has taken YEARS for the primaris range to fill up and its going to take more years for it to be as diverse as the old marine one or for chapters to get special units.
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#45
Triszin

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#46
Claws and Effect

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Could be easily covered by a Raven Guard codex.

If you figure that a First Founding Legion codex could easily cover the parent Chapter and 2 of the most well established successors you'd have Raven Guard, Raptors, and Carcharodons in one Codex probably about the size of the Harlequin or Imperial Knight codex.

I'd actually name each one Codex: Sons of [Primarch].
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#47
RandyB

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Know what? I'd push this even further and give each Legion a codex, with sections for their most known successors.

Codex: Dark Angels (DA, Consecrators...)

Codex: White Scars (I'll admit I am not versed in WS successors)

Codex: Space Wolves (SW, Wolf Spears)

Codex: Imperial Fists (IF, CF, BT, Executioners)

Codex: Iron Hands (IH, Red Talons, Sons of Medusa)

Codex: Blood Angels (BA, Flesh Tearers, Lamenters)

Codex: Ultramarines (UM, Fulminators, Silver Templars)

Codex: Salamanders (do they still have no successors in 11000 years?!)

Codex: Raven Guard (RG, Raptors, Carcharodons)

 

I was headed in that direction. You said it better.


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#48
Felix Antipodes

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I have always favoured the Sons of ..... Codex idea but I'm just as happy with a single codex if they went back to regular Index Astartes/Primaris articles in White Dwarf to flesh out various Chapters and their differences. All or nothing indeed.

I've noticed a few times the lump the Carcharodons into the Raven Guard pile. May be premature as their latest novel had a few hints suggesting they aren't RG successors at all. A Sons of codex series could clear up some of this sort of community speculation if nothing else.
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#49
RandyB

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I have always favoured the Sons of ..... Codex idea but I'm just as happy with a single codex if they went back to regular Index Astartes/Primaris articles in White Dwarf to flesh out various Chapters and their differences. All or nothing indeed.

I've noticed a few times the lump the Carcharodons into the Raven Guard pile. May be premature as their latest novel had a few hints suggesting they aren't RG successors at all. A Sons of codex series could clear up some of this sort of community speculation if nothing else.

 

To the extent that GW is willing to clear those things up, rather than deliberately leaving them ambiguous, certainly.



#50
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Well ideally everyone deserves one nowadays. I say nowadays because I feel that with the heresy books gw has given enough of a unique personality to each legion to have them warrant their own codex.
As far as succesor chapters go there are those that are different enough through books and storie, like the crimson fists should get their own Supplements or own rules in a parent legion codex.
But viciousness and glory were no longer enough. Killing enemies in battle was no longer enough. I wanted to fight the Eternal Crusade. I wanted to win the war.- Reclusiarch Grimaldus
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Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Adeptus Astartes, Speculation

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