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Konrad Curze: The Night Haunter


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#151
The_son_of_Dorn

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Problem there is how enforcing that type and level of "compliance" ever actually be justified? By dishing out that harsh a beating your kinda justifying to the world you've conquered they were right to resist you in the first place.

Its almost as if that legion shouldn't of existed officially at all within the public imperial eye. Rather only be sent to war zones where absolute justification (however rare)of total military depravity could be sanctioned. Or mainly/only be deployed against xenos in which kurzes mental instability wouldn't of been a factor.

However i completely agree with the above post. If anything it is compelling to see even an advanced son of a demigod falling victim to genuine human fears and emotions because of a lack of developmental nurturing and lack of positive human emotional exposure and reinforcement.

My alternate Heresy http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326705-another-alternate-heresy-with-no-fallen-primarchs/

 

"Poor chaos, the result of trillions of randomly merged hostile emotional subconsciousness's...........and 70% of them are female"  


#152
b1soul

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Curze's views human nature as inherently wicked, and that wickedness can only be contained by an overseer who sacrifices his scruples to inflict even greater wickedness upon the wicked. This "truth" is actually repugnant to Curze, and rather than reveling in his role, Curze is absolutely miserable.
This tells me Curze was never an irredeemable monster. His original goal was still to reduce wickedness. But his isolated early years on Nostramo twisted his mind. He was exposed to too much human evil too early. I also believe he had a natural vicious streak that was fed by the viciousness around him. This was a source of his self-loathing.
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#153
Knight of the Raven

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Where Corax believed in some lofty ideal of liberating worlds with his guerrilla tactics, Curze actively used the tools of oppression to force compliance. Curze did never truly believe in the concept of loyalty, and it shows in his Legion. He never experienced true compassion and loyalty in the first place, whereas somebody like Corax did. I think that may be the biggest difference between both, when so many parallels exist: Corax was raised with compassion, Curze with treachery and the worst of humanity in front of him, unable to trust anyone at all.

 

Curze believes that as soon as he'll turn his back on something or someone, they'll be jabbing him with a knife, right in the middle of his back. The way his Legion works reinforces that. He has no faith in humanity, no matter what others want to tell him. His entire belief system is built around needing to be someone others fear to oppose.

I agree, although I feel it goes beyond Corax being shown compassion when Curze was not. They both came into a world of darkness where the strong ruled with a bloodstained iron fist and the pleas of the weak went unheard. But where Curze found nothing but pitch black wherever he looked, Corax saw a minuscule, insignificant flame flickering in the darkness.

Curze was never shown any evidence that humanity was worth fighting for, that they were anything more than animals that just won't behave if you don't force them to. Corax witnessed this small, weak, pitiful flame and all the poor souls who huddled around it in a futile hope to chase away the terrors that preyed upon them, and vowed to protect them all.

It's easier to be a 'defender of mankind' when mankind is worth fighting for. Vulkan could have been a very different man if his fellow villagers hadn't been inspired to fight by his side when the dark eldar attacked, and instead abandoned him to his fate and kept cowering in their hideouts.


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#154
The_son_of_Dorn

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Kurze has always really interested me as a character. I sort of see him as Loki, on steroids and with an even harsher back story.

Me point is tho, that Konrad doesn't even want to lead the people he conquered. Why rule something you utterly can't stand? He doesn't want fake admiration or to "be loved" if anything having positive emotions would probably push him further the other way.

"I've found love, how long until its ripped away from me?" Sorta thing.

Touching on his belief system, Everything he does is as a result of him actually being afraid, rather than enduring or overcoming fear he sorta engineers it. Further justifying his beliefs when things go bad.

I am aware of the horrible exposure he had as a child, isolation an violence on that level must of been nothing short of "i've made a best friend sock puppet but he keeps telling me to hurt people" disturbing. But surely there must of been something that could of been done for him. Some levels of therapy or support rather than just being rebuked (even supportingly) by his brothers. Its sad to think konrad never even really had one person he could call a friend.
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My alternate Heresy http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326705-another-alternate-heresy-with-no-fallen-primarchs/

 

"Poor chaos, the result of trillions of randomly merged hostile emotional subconsciousness's...........and 70% of them are female"  


#155
Kelborn

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There's a great short about the Terran born chief librarian, Zho Sahal. It depicts his pov during the downfall up until his exile. Forgot the name, though.


The Black Library website classifies Lord of the Night as an eshort for some reason, maybe you're thinking of the novel? As far as I can find, Sahaal doesn't have any short stories dedicated to him.

I misremembered. I was thinking about Fel Zharost, not Zho Sahaal.
Child of Night gives a good view of the necessity of being a monster with a purpose.

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#156
Sanctimonius

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Me point is tho, that Konrad doesn't even want to lead the people he conquered. Why rule something you utterly can't stand? He doesn't want fake admiration or to "be loved" if anything having positive emotions would probably push him further the other way.

 

Can I just point out the discussion we've had over this book shows how well written it is? We're arguing about relative morality of the legions and their methods, might is right, how far is too far, based on the actions of Curze. I think he'd find that darkly amusing, just before he removed our faces.

 

I think this is actually a key point made by Son of Dorn. Curze loathed humanity. He was surrounded by the worst elements of humanity from his first days. He was never shown that they could be kind, compassionate, was never shown what it meant to have a bond with someone, a relationship. To him they were all contrary, spiteful little creatures, impermanent, flawed, waiting to turn on him. But he had this overriding compulsion to seek justice, this notion of fairness and law that they should follow. Curze is torn between this inherent nobility of purpose and the evidence that humanity is simply not worth saving.

 

After being found by the Emperor he was given this entire legion to use as he wished and he took them to be the monsters in the darkness to scare citizens straight. He was kind of like the Comedian in Watchmen - he saw clearly what the role of marines were, to terrify their enemies and tear them down into a forced compliance. He simply dialed that up to 11 and called anyone who didn't face up to that truth a coward. Of course it didn't work, Curze never cared for the aftermath of his compliances, never faced the reality that after something is torn down it must be rebuilt into a new and better fashion. But then, he never saw that on Nostramo. He simply installed himself as king and that was enough for a single planet.


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#157
helterskelter

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Just a point, it's not up to the legions to do the rebuilding, whilst some a la word bearers/ultramarines probably put more stock in it, after the legions were done it's up to the human element of the imperiums war machine to set up governors etc.
No one seemed particularly as fussed as when the world eaters or death guard had meandered through the system, probably because they could install their own colonists but still.
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#158
MegaVolt87

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Just a point, it's not up to the legions to do the rebuilding, whilst some a la word bearers/ultramarines probably put more stock in it, after the legions were done it's up to the human element of the imperiums war machine to set up governors etc.
No one seemed particularly as fussed as when the world eaters or death guard had meandered through the system, probably because they could install their own colonists but still.


Don't forget the Iron Warriors, build a fort with WMD's and a secure phone home so they can have their last stand with 10 guys when the resentful planet has enough of paying tithes to the Lord of Iron AND Terra. Then wreck whats left in retribution because they lost a battle, not because the planet rebelled. Our pride is more important !
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#159
Indefragable

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Just a point, it's not up to the legions to do the rebuilding, whilst some a la word bearers/ultramarines probably put more stock in it, after the legions were done it's up to the human element of the imperiums war machine to set up governors etc.
No one seemed particularly as fussed as when the world eaters or death guard had meandered through the system, probably because they could install their own colonists but still.


Call it image, but there’s a perception difference between the World Eaters, Death Guard, and Night Lords.

It’s about faces...

When a dog attacks a person and rips his face off with its teeth, it’s horrible yet people think “it’s an animal.”

When a chemical weapon is deployed that melts someone’s face off, it’s horrific, but people think “it’s a cruel weapon that should/not be deployed.”

When a man carves another man’s face off with his finger nails, it’s horrible and people think it’s particular horrible because there were plenty of other options and it is seen as being unnecessarily cruel:

I think that’s why Curze/NL got such a bad wrap because —in a weird twisted way—it’s a complement to day that they’ve had the ability to do it differently/a better way, yet chose their methods deliberately (and for effect, NL would argue).
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#160
DarKnight

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Haven't read the book yet but I will soon enough but one comment, I HATE how Curze's talons (Mercy & Forgiveness) are depicted now (since his Forgeworld model was made). In 'Savage Weapons' they're scythe-like blades on the ends of his fingers. I'm pretty sure prior to this there weren't any real depictions of him with any weapons so I loved AD-B's creativity, I understand that it may have been difficult to create a figure that replicates that (I think Kor Phaeron's weapons are similar) I just hate the artwork on the cover and in other places with the two wrist blades. Just a pet peeve of mine, hope the book is good.
Trial Of Blood Part I & IIPrelude To ArmageddonBlack blood vomited through corrupted lips as he struggled to speak his last. "I-iron within, iron wi.." His legion's motto was cut short as Soghur ended his life with a final swing of his axe. "You know nothing of iron, traitor," spat the Iron Hand as he strode over his already forgotten enemy.<p>"I understand you might think the IX Legion a bit... overzealous with our devotion to blood. But you must understand, blood is the most valuable resource on Baal. The tribeless are left to die. Lord Sanguinius was the only surviving orphan anyone could remember who actually thrived before he was found. So you see, his blood is singular in the history of our world, and we are honored to share it with him." - Ninth Captain Demion

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#161
MegaVolt87

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I don't know, his fingers themselves are pretty pointy. While not powered, I am sure they could basically be like mini scalpels. I think thats way worse/creepy than actual lightning claw fingers. Mercy and forgiveness, named after arguably the most inhumane style of lightning claws, guy is a nut case. Corax's claws are more of a weapon, Konrad's like torturer's device. 


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#162
b1soul

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In Savage Weapons, I don't think his claws are described in sufficient detail to let us know their design.

#163
The_son_of_Dorn

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I just think "Predator rip off" yet somehow more ugly.


My alternate Heresy http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326705-another-alternate-heresy-with-no-fallen-primarchs/

 

"Poor chaos, the result of trillions of randomly merged hostile emotional subconsciousness's...........and 70% of them are female"  


#164
SkimaskMohawk

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There is a disconnect between the NL series and earlier depictions of curze and the forgeworld model. Same thing with corax and his lightning claws

#165
godking

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Just finished it this morning. Guy Haley is my second favorite writer ADB is number one. Loved the novel. Curze remains the most gutless and pathetic of the traitor primarchs in my view. He had a choice he always had a choice but lacked the courage to take the risk and choose the unfamiliar path and then makes excuses about fate for choosing the familiar path. The scene when he kills that ganger crusher shows it perfectly. Yes there was a future where that ganger became a bigger monster but there was also a future where that ganger became an instrument of positive change for Nostromo. But that future would have required REAL work and Curze taking a real risk to bring about and that is the one thing Curze will not do. Curze was content to take the easy way out. Following "fate" and only making decisions falling within his comfort zone.
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#166
Nazguire

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Just finished it this morning. Guy Haley is my second favorite writer ADB is number one. Loved the novel. Curze remains the most gutless and pathetic of the traitor primarchs in my view. He had a choice he always had a choice but lacked the courage to take the risk and choose the unfamiliar path and then makes excuses about fate for choosing the familiar path. The scene when he kills that ganger crusher shows it perfectly. Yes there was a future where that ganger became a bigger monster but there was also a future where that ganger became an instrument of positive change for Nostromo. But that future would have required REAL work and Curze taking a real risk to bring about and that is the one thing Curze will not do. Curze was content to take the easy way out. Following "fate" and only making decisions falling within his comfort zone.

 

I get what you're saying - I think this is a good example of nature vs. nurture.  Putting aside his prophetic visions (as much as you can do, seeing as they're integral to his character), he was raised on a literal hell scape where he was bombarded with the worst that humanity had to offer every day.  Takes a lot to break that conditioning.  You can see real world examples today - people that are raised in perpetual poverty, violence, etc.  Bit hard to just suddenly change your mind and think differently to what you're conditioned to otherwise think and feel every day.



#167
godking

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Just finished it this morning. Guy Haley is my second favorite writer ADB is number one. Loved the novel. Curze remains the most gutless and pathetic of the traitor primarchs in my view. He had a choice he always had a choice but lacked the courage to take the risk and choose the unfamiliar path and then makes excuses about fate for choosing the familiar path. The scene when he kills that ganger crusher shows it perfectly. Yes there was a future where that ganger became a bigger monster but there was also a future where that ganger became an instrument of positive change for Nostromo. But that future would have required REAL work and Curze taking a real risk to bring about and that is the one thing Curze will not do. Curze was content to take the easy way out. Following "fate" and only making decisions falling within his comfort zone.

 

I get what you're saying - I think this is a good example of nature vs. nurture.  Putting aside his prophetic visions (as much as you can do, seeing as they're integral to his character), he was raised on a literal hell scape where he was bombarded with the worst that humanity had to offer every day.  Takes a lot to break that conditioning.  You can see real world examples today - people that are raised in perpetual poverty, violence, etc.  Bit hard to just suddenly change your mind and think differently to what you're conditioned to otherwise think and feel every day.

 

Agree and disagree.

 

You are correct in that Curze is a product of his enviroment.

 

But he had a choice and an opportunity to be different and better then he was if he had chosen to take a risk which is more then most people get.

 

Sanguinus was cursed with the same visions but he did the best he could and tried Curze never did.


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#168
SkimaskMohawk

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It's important to note that sanguinius visions weren't omni-present. They only started kicking in after the heresy started. Kurze suffered from the get-go

#169
b1soul

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It always felt like Curze enjoyed the the screams and suffering of his victims as much as or perhaps moreso than meting out "justice"

#170
godking

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It always felt like Curze enjoyed the the screams and suffering of his victims as much as or perhaps moreso than meting out "justice"

He did and he knowingly lied about it. That is why his claims about justice where bull:cuss.

#171
SkimaskMohawk

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Feels like you missed the novels point

#172
The_son_of_Dorn

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Kurze was deranged. An example that even gene forged demi gods are susceptible to "being human" and falling victim to bad qualities.

However, the visions thing definitely had a massive bearing on him.

My alternate Heresy http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326705-another-alternate-heresy-with-no-fallen-primarchs/

 

"Poor chaos, the result of trillions of randomly merged hostile emotional subconsciousness's...........and 70% of them are female"  


#173
MegaVolt87

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Got around to reading this. I can see why many of the NL admired Konrad, he could keep it together enough in front of them. He was definitely pretty pathetic in his chambers and when he got picked up by the cargo hauler. If everyone saw him like that, none of them would respect him. Before I was kinda leaning to how Talos remembered Konrad, after seeing him like that, completely understand how the others eventually lost respect for him. 

 

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