Blessed Bolt Too Good?

[Beams]

So recently, I've noticed whenever I use the Blessed Bolts 1CP strategem I get a lot of groans and even complaints. Whatever I hit with it, is usually absolutely destroyed.

 

I generally bring 2x "Bolterstorm Squads" - 10 Dominions' with 5 stormbolters, 5 Bolters and a Simulcrum Imperialis.

 

I generally follow behind them with a Smash Cannoness (eviscerator, inferno pistol) who runs to keep them within 6" for the reroll ones.

 

So, in all likely hood, I am firing 20 shots at bs 2+, rerolling ones, and getting 19/20 hits, and 10ish wounds at Ap-2 D2, all for a 120 pt squad with 1 FP and 1 CP used.

 

Its been pointed out that that 1cp makes the 2 pt stormbolter better than the 10pt Hotshot Volleygun, which is heavy 4 Str 4 Ap -2.

 

But I was thinking that blessed bolts is likely to get a nerf, and was wondering what everyone else's thoughts were? I could see it going to ap-2 d1, or AP -1 d2 pretty easily.

[Atrus]

I've been immensely underwhelmed Every time I've used it myself- mostly due to not knowing my opponents army and using it on something that reduces damage taken by 1.

A vindictive part of me says stuff your opponents, sisters have been ignored so long and we finally get something nice and people whinge about it.

 

I don't take Dom squads full of storm bolters (have neither the models nor the required hard on for bolter pron GW seems intent on injecting into the beta), I just use it in a Celestian squad as a fluff thing as I believe only Celestians and higher rank would be given such rare and valuable ammo.

 

Outside of fluff and personal grievances? If this was a marine thing there's probably be calls of cheese, then again, marines can't spam specials quite like what we can.

 

If what we got was the proper codex, I could see GW doing an errata rebalance and simply up the cost to 2CP.

With the proper codex on the way? They might keep it as is and up the CP cost, or change it entirely.

As far as current rules go, BB is one of the few stratagems really doing us favours considering 2/3 of our armoury got no stratagem love.

 

Is BB too good? Objectively: maybe? Emotionally: heck no.

 

YMMV of course as with anything. BB to me is just a seasoning for fluff that is a nice flavour. Not a meat and 3 veg main meal.

[robofish7591]

Honestly, it better be better than a hotshot volley gun.  We are spending a limited resource so that one squad can fire using that profile during one phase.  Volley guns get their profile all the time on every squad.  Blessed bolts needs to be strong as it is basically our "plasma".

[Beams]

Honestly, it better be better than a hotshot volley gun. We are spending a limited resource so that one squad can fire using that profile during one phase. Volley guns get their profile all the time on every squad. Blessed bolts needs to be strong as it is basically our "plasma".

It does fire 4 shots vs a plasma guns 2, and costs 2 instead of 13.

 

Stormbolters are already pretty good -- blessed bolts might be too much. I think I'd be happier with ap-2 d1. Or if it was a profile you could buy, otherwise it feels like a huge upgrade for no real opportunity cost.

 

I usually have 7-8 cps at 1000 pts, and spending them at blessed bolts is a no brainer for me at least twice a game.

[Dominoris]

I have 3 stormbolter girls total and don't feel like buying more metal models.  Needless to say I have not used BB all that often but I have been happy with the results so far.

 

It it OP?  Maybe.  But it still does not make up for our inability to generate mortal wounds.

[Slasher956]

It’s ap is still only -1, and it’s still s4....so yeah you might hit lots but you still have to wound and have your opponent fail their save... oh and you are using up a CP to do it.

 

So even with a unit of 5 storm bolsters you still don’t wipe out a unit of intercessors in a single go...unlike the marines with their unit of plasma guns!

[Dominoris]

It’s ap is still only -1,

 

Am I missing something?  My book says change the AP to -2 and I don't see anything in the CA2018 errata that says different.  Is there another faq out somewhere?

[Beams]

It’s ap is still only -1, and it’s still s4....so yeah you might hit lots but you still have to wound and have your opponent fail their save... oh and you are using up a CP to do it.

 

So even with a unit of 5 storm bolsters you still don’t wipe out a unit of intercessors in a single go...unlike the marines with their unit of plasma guns!

Without any rerolls I got:

0x46

1x382

2x1036

3x1747

4x2069

5x1950

6x1370

7x809

8x381

9x145

10x50

11x11

12x4

 

So, a 4,720/10,000, or a 47% chance to wipe out a squad of primaris Marines.

 

With a reroll ones, the median is now 5, and the chance to kill 5 or more is approx 61.9%

 

Make that FP for 2+ bs and reroll ones, and you get an approx 82.4% chance to remove 5 or more.

 

And that's without the additional Bolter shots coming out the squad. So 60 pts naked and 120 pts with a full squad, I'd say that's a pretty good return.

[ERJAK]

 

It’s ap is still only -1, and it’s still s4....so yeah you might hit lots but you still have to wound and have your opponent fail their save... oh and you are using up a CP to do it.

 

So even with a unit of 5 storm bolsters you still don’t wipe out a unit of intercessors in a single go...unlike the marines with their unit of plasma guns!

Without any rerolls I got:

0x46

1x382

2x1036

3x1747

4x2069

5x1950

6x1370

7x809

8x381

9x145

10x50

11x11

12x4

 

So, a 4,720/10,000, or a 47% chance to wipe out a squad of primaris Marines.

 

With a reroll ones, the median is now 5, and the chance to kill 5 or more is approx 61.9%

 

Make that FP for 2+ bs and reroll ones, and you get an approx 82.4% chance to remove 5 or more.

 

And that's without the additional Bolter shots coming out the squad. So 60 pts naked and 120 pts with a full squad, I'd say that's a pretty good return.

 

 

So you're basing how good it is on 1. Optimal conditions 2. Optimal Targets 3. In the incredibly unlikely scenario that everyone in the unit makes it into rapid fire ?range?(even getting first turn, marines have scouts to block scout moves) 

 

There is one type of unit in the entire game that Blessed Bolts does meaningful extra damage to. That people actually use. It's okay against Terminators too but no one brings those because EVERYTHING is good against terminators.

 

How much extra damage are you getting on cultists? Ork Boyz? Infantry squads? Genestealers? Blood Letters? Knights? Rhinos? Even Just Tactical marines? The fact that you have a sub 50% chance to wipe out a unit that isn't very good, that not only out-ranges you by 6 inches but also gets full rapid fire at 30", AND either full rerolls or -1 to hit, using a weapon that is specifically designed to kill them, on a unit specifically built to maximize it's usage, at the cost of giving up a melta gun squad, and a transport, and guaranteeing that the unit with the stormbolters dies the next turn, AND a CP, is less than impressive. Investing your only use of divine guidance AND a character escort makes this a massive investment for a frankly anemic return against 90% of builds.

 

So the Short answer to the question? No. Long answer? Nooooooooooooooooo. It's decent. Good against Primaris, mediocre against literally everything else.

 

Honestly, I've only used it maybe twice since the beta codex dropped. Basing how good it is on how well it kill Primaris Space marines is like claiming Melta guns are massively OP because of how good they are against land speeders. 

 

Tell the people you play against to use REAL armies with REAL strategies instead of their fluff intercessor spam lists and you should be fine.

 

Also, sidebar, there is not a single thing in that codex that's 'too good' there's some 'okay' and a lot of 'ewwww' but no 'Too Good'. If they fix the codex so that we're not trudging through garbage to build a halfway decent army, then sure, it could be too strong. In the current iteration of the army it's like everything else we have: Usable...if barely.

Edited May 6, 2019 by ERJAK

[Beams]

 

 

 

It’s ap is still only -1, and it’s still s4....so yeah you might hit lots but you still have to wound and have your opponent fail their save... oh and you are using up a CP to do it.

 

So even with a unit of 5 storm bolsters you still don’t wipe out a unit of intercessors in a single go...unlike the marines with their unit of plasma guns!

Without any rerolls I got:

0x46

1x382

2x1036

3x1747

4x2069

5x1950

6x1370

7x809

8x381

9x145

10x50

11x11

12x4

 

So, a 4,720/10,000, or a 47% chance to wipe out a squad of primaris Marines.

 

With a reroll ones, the median is now 5, and the chance to kill 5 or more is approx 61.9%

 

Make that FP for 2+ bs and reroll ones, and you get an approx 82.4% chance to remove 5 or more.

 

And that's without the additional Bolter shots coming out the squad. So 60 pts naked and 120 pts with a full squad, I'd say that's a pretty good return.

So you're basing how good it is on 1. Optimal conditions 2. Optimal Targets 3. In the incredibly unlikely scenario that everyone in the unit makes it into rapid fire ?range?(even getting first turn, marines have scouts to block scout moves)

 

There is one type of unit in the entire game that Blessed Bolts does meaningful extra damage to. That people actually use. It's okay against Terminators too but no one brings those because EVERYTHING is good against terminators.

 

How much extra damage are you getting on cultists? Ork Boyz? Infantry squads? Genestealers? Blood Letters? Knights? Rhinos? Even Just Tactical marines? The fact that you have a sub 50% chance to wipe out a unit that isn't very good, that not only out-ranges you by 6 inches but also gets full rapid fire at 30", AND either full rerolls or -1 to hit, using a weapon that is specifically designed to kill them, on a unit specifically built to maximize it's usage, at the cost of giving up a melta gun squad, and a transport, and guaranteeing that the unit with the stormbolters dies the next turn, AND a CP, is less than impressive. Investing your only use of divine guidance AND a character escort makes this a massive investment for a frankly anemic return against 90% of builds.

 

So the Short answer to the question? No. Long answer? Nooooooooooooooooo. It's decent. Good against Primaris, mediocre against literally everything else.

 

Honestly, I've only used it maybe twice since the beta codex dropped. Basing how good it is on how well it kill Primaris Space marines is like claiming Melta guns are massively OP because of how good they are against land speeders.

 

Tell the people you play against to use REAL armies with REAL strategies instead of their fluff intercessor spam lists and you should be fine.

 

Also, sidebar, there is not a single thing in that codex that's 'too good' there's some 'okay' and a lot of 'ewwww' but no 'Too Good'. If they fix the codex so that we're not trudging through garbage to build a halfway decent army, then sure, it could be too strong. In the current iteration of the army it's like everything else we have: Usable...if barely.

I am basing this off of the fact that after I use blessed bolts, my opponents are usually salty about it. I usually use it against guard and occasionally Marines, but my stormbolter squad almost always destroys whatever squad I am shooting at. It's 30 shots, usually at bs2 rerolling ones, and 20 of them Str 4 Ap -2 d2.

 

I haven't ever actually used it against primaris, but that was brought up as the ideal target, so I did some quick math up there for just the blessed part, but if your firing 20 shots that have a 82.4 chance to remove their key target, and then add in the wounds from the other 10nshots, than well, it will reliably kill them.

 

And getting Dominions' in position is easy. They have a scout move, so first turn is 6+d6 move and then second turn is 6". Also, if you have enough terrain on the board they should be able to hide, and shouldn't be the main thing drawing fire. And even if they are, you should have 2?

 

And the character escort is crazy cheap, since you need one anyway, and shell help the rest of your army just as much? Plus is a blender in melee. So I don't see why you hate my opinion so harshly?

 

Against standard Guardsmen, the median amount killed is 13 vs standard stormbolter median of 8, and there is a 94.6% chance that the 20 blessed bolts kill an entire squad, and that actually goes up slightly if they have a heavy weapons team, since they have 2 wounds.

 

And against Orks, the median is "only" 10, with rhe probability of killing 7 or more at 93%. Which works just as well for killing Nobs as Boyz since the only real difference is their 2 wounds.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Beams

[Slasher956]

 

It’s ap is still only -1,

 

 

Am I missing something?  My book says change the AP to -2 and I don't see anything in the CA2018 errata that says different.  Is there another faq out somewhere?

Oops that’s my memory at fault there! Still don’t think it’s OP overall... individual elements need to be to balance out the rest

[Mekhitar]

I haven’t been impressed with blessed bolts. I’m not sure what armies you folks typically play against, but I almost never see good targets for it - either it’s something my army will already have no trouble overkilling (guardsmen), or it’s an awkward target - t5 bikes, plaguebeaerers with a 5++ and -1 to hit, and so on.

 

I occasionally use it on shield drones to make sure they actually die.

 

Mostly I just save the cp.

[EmperorGTank]

Personally, I definitely think it is a pretty good stratagem, but I run into similar problems in what targets I am usually up against. Most of the time I am up against t4 or t5 armies like marines, chaos and deathguard especially. So while I may hit with a bunch of shots, wounding is always challenging, and I have never wiped something out using it, and I use it at least once or twice a game usually. In many cases I just use it to whiddle a big squad down and the only times it has actually come in handy is killing hellblasters or other primaris, which of course is its intended target. The biggest issue of course is that I only have 3 SB sistter models and I try to play as WYSIWYG as possible, so I usually just bring them in BSS, with the superior toting one too, so at most I have 8-12 shots hitting on 2/3+ rerolling 1s. I have debated trying to use holy trinity or faith and fury with it to make it better but at the end of the day its still str4 which is what I think really balances it, and to use 2 or 3 CP on a squad that might kill a minimum squad of intercessors just doesnt feel worth it. So I have had meh experiences at best with it, and just think it is a slightly above average stratagem at best. That, Faith and Fury, Vessels, and Burning Descent are usually my main strats going into any game, as those are the only ones that ever even feel close to worth it, though if I somehow get Holy Trinity to work I try to make it count. Havent had much luck with it yet, either the squad just whiffs or I feel like something got wasted/it didnt need the +1 to wound anyway. I agree with the simple fact that nothing in this beta is "too good" and the only thing really helping sisters players in general is the continuing fact that many people, especially casual players, dont know this army well enough to play against it, so you get a few games to distraction carnifex them into making the wrong decisions before they realize what you actually need.

[Montford]

Blessed Bolts works great as a killer of Primaris Marines as it dishes out 2 wounds per failed save. It also works well vs any T4 or lower target. Its not OP as you need at least a 5+ vs anything with a higher Toughness stat.

[A.T.]

Its been pointed out that that 1cp makes the 2 pt stormbolter better than the 10pt Hotshot Volleygun, which is heavy 4 Str 4 Ap -2.

 

Blessed bolts are about equal to plasma guns, 1CP per turn to get ~50pts of extra firepower for a small squad.

 

Different restrictions but similar return to the the double-shot stratagems (such as those used by the chaos factions). I'm sure they'd see more use if the sisters weren't so reliant on dominions for melta delivery.

[Closet Skeleton]

 

I am basing this off of the fact that after I use blessed bolts, my opponents are usually salty about it. I usually use it against guard and occasionally Marines, but my stormbolter squad almost always destroys whatever squad I am shooting at. It's 30 shots, usually at bs2 rerolling ones, and 20 of them Str 4 Ap -2 d2.

 

 

Sounds like your opponents aren't used to competitive play and are using too many vulnerable over-priced units they can't afford to lose. Units that can reliably kill a target with stratagem support aren't rare.

 

Weapons of the Dark Age is 1cp and just as nasty if requiring more expensive units. Autocannon havocs can dish out similar amounts of d2 shots at far greater range for more of the game.