Houserule buff to GK

[Atrus]

Posted this on Dakka but that place is just good for venting and I'm curious as to the GK players perspective.

General consensus is GK are overpriced to the point of near auto lose if taken (ironic considering recent thread on the mono GK that took out Briscon)

 

Disclaimer, I'm a casual player so my ideas are done through that scope. There's no competitive or math hammer filter that these have been put through; they just ideas that I think are cool and would be perfectly happy playing against a GK player with to buff up their very meh force.

These ideas are meant as additions to current GK with their points being unchanged. Like how GW brought in Bolter Discipline.

 

Aegis Armour: the justification for GK infantry to have +1 wound and attack to their profile.

 

(Yes I know Aegis Armour of old was the psychic defence, but given how all GK can deny now, that component is redundant)

 

Wrist mounted storm bolter/True Grit:

GK INFANTRY models may fire their Storm Bolter in the shooting phase even if they are within 1" of an enemy model. These attacks may only targets enemy units within 1" and no more than 2 dice may be rolled for each firing model.

 

(Alternative writing- GK INFANTRY models in close combat may fire their Storm bolters in the shooting phase as if they were Pistol 2.)

 

(Basically treat their Storm bolters as Pistol 2 in close combat)

(There has been a suggestion of simply an extra attack in combat using the storm bolter profile, which has merit and in keeping with old true grit, but doesn't sound as cool)

 

Nemesis Force Weapon: Invulnerable saves against wounds caused by a weapon of this type do so at -1 to their roll. These saves cannot be modified beyond 6++.

 

(Because they're just normal force weapons at the moment and the Nemesis name is just a name, so this sounds good to me. Also no auto ignoring base 6++ saves.)

 

Edit: removed Fearless and Preliminary Teleport Assault.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Atrus

[Sweetcurse]

All sensible ideas. If only GW didn’t hate us.

[Zeller]

I like the SB idea the most, but I agree they are all good ideas. Very reasonable with the requisite point adjustments.

[Waking Dreamer]

Some really sweet house rules. In keeping with their current points cost, they would give GK infantry some really solid value for cost - while being awesomely fluffy!

 

I especially like the tweak to our uniquely wrist-mounted Stormbolters and nemesis force weapons. I would go for the ability to shoot in the shooting phase while locked in combat for the stormbolters, it fits well with 8Ed. However I would keep it equivalent as pistol 2 in combat (which is still awesome). In my head, while wrist-mounted stormbolters should be as manoeuvrable to aim in close combat as standard pistols, during combat part of the GK's focus is with his melee weapon (striking, blocking, parrying etc) so he can only shoot 1 volley effectively. 

 

-1 to invulnerable saves against our nemesis weapons adds some good utility when we go up against other army elites. I would cap it to a minimum of 6++, so it just doesn't completely melt away daemonic saves. But it would be useful against wraiths, custodes, characters etc. who require volume attacks otherwise - which is hard to come by in reduced / remaining GK infantry squads. Might be a possible house-rule to apply to our psilencers / psycannons...?

[Atrus]

Am curious as to how much a point adjustment you think would be necessary to throw these in there, given the overpriced nature of GK already?

 

Point costing is a headache I try to avoid, but I imagine any adjustments would be minor considering the existing price.

 

I'd like to playtest these rules for funsies but alas I don't get enough time right now. Would anyone be interested in trying them out sometime for the hell of it and getting back on what it's like?

 

Edit: hmm, that's a good point about the 6++. I'll add that in.

I agree the effective Pistol 4 might be a bit much. Trying to think of a tidy way to phrase it to 2 shots.

 

As for the Psilencer/Psycannon idea. It does make sense; but I wonder if it might be too good considering it's a ranged weapon?

Also don't want to add too much to warrant repointing things. Want this to be a buff, not an army rewrite, lol.

Edited May 9, 2019 by Atrus

[Panzer]

To be fair the Aegis Armour thing is something that should be done for every Marine, not just for GK. One of the reasons why it feels so much better to play with Primaris (sue me). And yes I'd also boost Primaris a little bit more in return because I like the distinction between those two Marine types crunch-wise.

[Captain Coolpants]

I really like the idea of - 1 to invun saves on nemesis weapons.

[Waking Dreamer]

Am curious as to how much a point adjustment you think would be necessary to throw these in there, given the overpriced nature of GK already?

Point costing is a headache I try to avoid, but I imagine any adjustments would be minor considering the existing price.

Imo, +1A, Pistol 2 in combat, and -1 to invuln. saves from our Nemesis Force Weapons can all be included into our current costs. These buffs are fluffy and effective but can only happen WHEN / IF we get into combat. No point in paying for upgrades on all our (already expensive) infantry models - when half of them will be blown off the table just as easily with the upgrades as they would without.

 

+1W is a pretty major upgrade compared to vanilla marines. Though if you house-rule it that all marines with PA get +1W (this a major problem with all non-primaris marines) , then yeah I can see that upgrade free again.

 

Auto-pass morale (which makes one of our WT redundant) with infiltrate added on will probably need added costs, I don't know how much though.

 

EDIT: The upgrades to our stormbolter and NFW would also work on our Relics of Titan weapons as well right? So we could fire 3 shots point-blank while in combat with our relic bolter, and Draigo's Titan Sword will shave off at least -1 from an invuln. save if it wounds that opponent?

 

Noice!

Edited May 9, 2019 by Waking Dreamer

[Atrus]

Laid out like that makes it easier to compare. Agreed that +1W is indeed a heft upgrade. I sat down last night and figured that at 500pts sisters of battle can squeeze in 55 wounds worth of models. The +1W jumps GK from 25ish (rounded down strike squad cost to 100 for easy math) up to 50 which coupled with the buff to SB and NFW and the extra attack does make the GK (imo) with their points.

With that scope, there's a 15pt difference between a 10 girl squad and a 5 man strike squad. Same wound total and saves and ranged damage output in rapid fire range. Most difference just in profile and the buff rules.

Think this is just a long winded way of saying that the SB buff, NFW buds, +1A and W is about the ceiling of buffability without affecting points as you said.

 

The morale ignore could be dropped. They have ATSKNF anyways and I imagine a lot of the time GK squads are either being taken in min squads or combat squadded so it shouldn't really come in too much.

 

As for the Infiltrate thing, I could be wrong, but is it not just Purgation squads and a handful of character INFANTRY units that don't already have Teleport Assault? It seemed like a minor thing to me to help the GK get those 6" or so closer in first turn.

Can be dropped, just thought it was cool.

 

Good point about the relic weapons. I didn't consider them. Had a quick look over them. I don't see why the proposed buffs should not affect them. So yes, the souped up storm bolter will shoot 3 in combat. Curaiss still gives it's benefit as well as +1W and A from Aegis. These other weapons replace their respective NFW so would benefit from the NFW -1 to invo.

[Sweetcurse]

If the SB is used as a pistol in CC then it should be one shot.

[Atrus]

Well it's not a pistol. It's a storm bolter that can fired in the shooting phase even when enemies are within 1" and at those enemies but not rolling any more than 2 dice per shooting model.

 

Yeah I get what you're saying and it is cleaner, but I feel it should get of at least 2 shots instead of just the one.

[Waking Dreamer]

If the SB is used as a pistol in CC then it should be one shot.

 

Is that because it'll be easier to keep track of or that it might be too powerful with 2 shots?

[Sweetcurse]

Both.

[Panzer]

It definitely wouldn't be too strong with 2 shots though. It's still just S4 AP0 D1 and GK are a low model count army. It's still only half the shots they get within rapid fire range too.

[Corvus Fortis]

Be it even 4 shots, GK would still have problem with getting into range. Allowing to ignore Tactical Reserves rule in Matched play is the first thing to buff GK. 

[Beams]

I feel like this is getting extreme?

 

So, like, a grey knight strike is 21 pts. An intercessor is 18, and they are usually considered about right for their pt costs, not undercosted but not over costed.

 

So if we add +1 attack and +1 wound to the strike, he's now an intercessor. A stormbolter is about a 1 pt increase from a Bolt Rifle, so that's 19.

 

A powersword is 4 pts, but you've got Nemesis force falchions, which are Str 4 Ap -2 d3 damage +1 attack, but hey, let's call it 2 pts for arguments sake here.

 

Okay, so we're now at 21.

 

And then we want to add in dual bolt pistols (a 0 to 1pt upgrade each usually), so we'll add in another pt for 22.

 

Then add in deepstrike, which is worth at least 1 pt.

 

Add in psychic that's at least worth 1 pt, even if it's only for their deny potential and the smite that each squad gets.

 

So that's 24.

 

Then add in the brand new, no one else has it, ability to reduce invulns by 1, and let's say that's only worth 1 pt (which, with having 3 attacks for strikes and 4 for Justicars, means a sqaud of 5 is throwing out 16 attacks at ap-2, ip -1 d3 per round of combat)

 

Realistically that's got to be worth at least 1 pt. Bringing up the cheapest I can see these guys at at 25.

 

Anything less, and it starts to skew hard.

 

105 pts for 5 psychic, deepstriking intercessors alone would be worth it, but then add in strong melee potential? Yeah who wouldn't want them!

[Waking Dreamer]

.

Then add in the brand new, no one else has it, ability to reduce invulns by 1, and let's say that's only worth 1 pt (which, with having 3 attacks for strikes and 4 for Justicars, means a sqaud of 5 is throwing out 16 attacks at ap-2, ip -1 d3 per round of combat).

Actually it's not completely new. Draigo has it as his stock WL trait Daemon-Slayer. Though it only works against Daemons, which is considered kinda bad, even if you're up against a Daemon army. Though with the House-rule of NFW, it would stack on him as having -1 invul. save against non-daemon, and -2 invuln. (min. 6++) vs Daemons. Now that would be fluffy AND impressive!

 

Consider though, -1 invul. save in melee is situational at BEST, when the majority of the time it does not factor at all against most armies / units. Also in an army that has a lot of potential targets, core-rules nerfing deep-strike means there's less likelihood those NFW will actually reach combat to strike their targets. Usually, 9 times out of 10, my 5-man squad reaches combat with less than 5 models. It's not uncommon for 5-man squads to die before even reaching charging distance so....

 

^ Same logic can be applied to SB shooting in combat, with the added filter of possibly more GKs dying during initial combat round, hence resulting in even less GK models to actually use their SB in the next shooting phase.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Waking Dreamer

[Panzer]

I feel like this is getting extreme?

 

So, like, a grey knight strike is 21 pts. An intercessor is 18, and they are usually considered about right for their pt costs, not undercosted but not over costed.

 

So if we add +1 attack and +1 wound to the strike, he's now an intercessor. A stormbolter is about a 1 pt increase from a Bolt Rifle, so that's 19.

 

A powersword is 4 pts, but you've got Nemesis force falchions, which are Str 4 Ap -2 d3 damage +1 attack, but hey, let's call it 2 pts for arguments sake here.

 

Okay, so we're now at 21.

 

And then we want to add in dual bolt pistols (a 0 to 1pt upgrade each usually), so we'll add in another pt for 22.

 

Then add in deepstrike, which is worth at least 1 pt.

 

Add in psychic that's at least worth 1 pt, even if it's only for their deny potential and the smite that each squad gets.

 

So that's 24.

 

Then add in the brand new, no one else has it, ability to reduce invulns by 1, and let's say that's only worth 1 pt (which, with having 3 attacks for strikes and 4 for Justicars, means a sqaud of 5 is throwing out 16 attacks at ap-2, ip -1 d3 per round of combat)

 

Realistically that's got to be worth at least 1 pt. Bringing up the cheapest I can see these guys at at 25.

 

Anything less, and it starts to skew hard.

 

105 pts for 5 psychic, deepstriking intercessors alone would be worth it, but then add in strong melee potential? Yeah who wouldn't want them!

 

Intercessors aren't considered to be right for their points quite yet but they are close enough that most people came to accept things as they are. I imagine most are simply too tired to argue about fine tuning such basic units and are satisfied enough when it's not too far off.

That being said, you are right and all buffs mentioned together is definitely too much for 21p imo.

[Matt_149]

Are you saying an intercessor should be less than 17pts??

[Panzer]

Don't act so shocked and just compare them to other factions Troop choices. Bolter Discipline helped a bit to equal things out but only at >15“ and if stationary.

[Beams]

Don't act so shocked and just compare them to other factions Troop choices. Bolter Discipline helped a bit to equal things out but only at >15“ and if stationary.

Compared to Standard Marines they have twice the wounds, twice the attacks and a better gun

 

The gun itself is worth at least one pt for the range, 1 pt for the AP -1

 

So 15

 

At least one pt for 1 attack, so 16

 

At least 2 pt for 1 extra wound, so 18. That said, that wound is definitely worth more than 2 pts, because most people always pay 2 pts for +1 wound regardless -- I know I'd pay 6 pts for a 2 wound Guardsmen, 11 pts for a 2 wound Scion or a 2 wound sister, and I'm sure people would still pay 15 pts for a 2 wound marine. Add the rest of the buffs on there, and yeah, they are expensive and maybe should be 17 instead of 18, but definitely aren't over costed by much if any.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Beams

[Panzer]

 

Don't act so shocked and just compare them to other factions Troop choices. Bolter Discipline helped a bit to equal things out but only at >15“ and if stationary.

Compared to Standard Marines they have twice the wounds, twice the attacks and a better gun

 

The gun itself is worth at least one pt for the range, 1 pt for the AP -1

 

So 15

 

At least one pt for 1 attack, so 16

 

At least 2 pt for 1 extra wound, so 18. That said, that wound is definitely worth more than 2 pts, because most people always pay 2 pts for +1 wound regardless -- I know I'd pay 6 pts for a 2 wound Guardsmen, 11 pts for a 2 wound Scion or a 2 wound sister, and I'm sure people would still pay 15 pts for a 2 wound marine.

 

 

The fact that standard Marines are overcosted isn't new either. ^^

[Beams]

 

 

 

Don't act so shocked and just compare them to other factions Troop choices. Bolter Discipline helped a bit to equal things out but only at >15“ and if stationary.

Compared to Standard Marines they have twice the wounds, twice the attacks and a better gun

 

The gun itself is worth at least one pt for the range, 1 pt for the AP -1

 

So 15

 

At least one pt for 1 attack, so 16

 

At least 2 pt for 1 extra wound, so 18. That said, that wound is definitely worth more than 2 pts, because most people always pay 2 pts for +1 wound regardless -- I know I'd pay 6 pts for a 2 wound Guardsmen, 11 pts for a 2 wound Scion or a 2 wound sister, and I'm sure people would still pay 15 pts for a 2 wound marine.

The fact that standard Marines are overcosted isn't new either. ^^

Id argue that if they are, they are by .5 to 1 pts, especially with Bolter discipline, but that's off topic.

 

My issue with the GKSS isnt that they aren't good -- it's that they aren't generalists, and that because they are weighted for Shooting Offense, Punching Offense and Psychic Offense, they have no pts left for defense, outside of psyhic defense.

 

I think that if they were giving +1 wound and +1 attack, basically Primarised, and kept at 21 pts they would be balanced, (at least until you bring up things like Imperial Knights and other undercosted or skew lists.)

 

But even then, primaris at 3 pts cheaper, makes it an easy choice to take the deepstriking, mind bulleting, mind sheilding power sword primaris over them.

 

Which is why GW is having such problems with all the marine lines.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Beams

[Trevak Dal]

Sounds great. I like the initial interpretation of stormbolters into combat (as in rapid 2, so 4 shots within an inch) bring back that "small force hits super hard" that the Custard Bois took from us.

 

Nemesis force weapons should do a minimum of 2 damage, the d3 is rolled to see if we get 3 wounds per hit.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Trevak Dal

[Atrus]

Well the hesitation over the Preliminary Teleport Assault (Infiltrate) seems to be a recurring theme across some boards, so I think might drop that one.

As fluffy as the Fearless is, shall drop that one too. ATSKNF coupled with a tendency to small squads should more or less have a similar effect with the exception of fringe cases of morale modifiers.

 

I'm not personally opposed to all marines houseruling to have +1W and A. The whole Primaris thing is something I won't touch on as it tends to elicit a variety of emotional responses.

 

I like the initial pistol 4 effect too, but have to concede it's probably a bit much, even though the rule for it is easier to write.

 

Getting the feeling that the +1W/A, NFW, SB buffs are the absolute limit of buffage before significantly affecting points cost.