What do you consider a fluffy list

[War Angel]

As the title says.

[PeteySödes]

Good question! Personally I think a fluffy list is one that behaves to the narrative of the army OR one that follows a theme in a way that pushes that narrative over more competitive choices.

 

The challenge I think is that nowadays "Fluffy lists" are sort of synonymous for "less competitive" so its hard to untie that. I have a friend that plays Tempestus that has a brutal drop force list that took 4th at Adepticon. It's a fluffy list in that it makes sense in the narrative but it also beats face and frankly is not fun to play against.

 

The other side of the coin is my army I'm working on for later this season which is classic Company of the great wolf, Logan and friends plus terminators, wolf guard and a land raider. Fluffy as hell and I'm going to get wailed on haha.

 

Everyone is going to have a different opinion because its always your personal hobby and the narrative is what you make it. Theres a reason a lot of places have done away with "comp scores" in the last decade or so.

[Johanhgg]

A fluffy list is to me a list thats based on known lore. Like a mobile bike-landspeeder white scars list, or a vehicle-Dreadnought Heavy Iron Hands list.

 

But on the other hand all chapters both contain and use all sorts of units.

 

Its up the the player really. I have an image of my Army and how i want it to play, so i care less of competiveness. As an example my white scars use bikesquads and not jumppack-squads, even tho the chaptertactic suits jumpinfantry better.

[Panzer]

Honestly, almost anything is fluffy depending on the narrative. If you are creative enough you could even justify a list with nothing but HQs as long as you don't have more Captains from one Chapter as there usually are in a chapter etc.

Though the more explaining you have to do the more likely it is to raise an eyebrow the less likely it is for people to accept it to be "fluffy".

Edited May 9, 2019 by sfPanzer

[MARK0SIAN]

It depends on the chapter but I would always try to make it representative of how it is in the background. So my Black Templars list would try to feature lots of Crusader Squads, LRCs, Emperor’s Champion and not really any devastators squads, the heavies would be in the crusader squads.

 

My Blood Angels on the other hand tend to have lots of Jump infantry, Death Company, Sanguinary Guard etc. Whereas my Crimson Fists tend to be based more closely on the codex with a focus on shooting but pretty much everyone who is allowed to has a power fist.

 

For me, fluffy lists try to capture the ethos and way of war of the chapter rather than adhere to any specific requirement.

[Brother Tyler]

Being "fluffy*" doesn't allow for any set definition as the term itself is vague and allows for so much. Also consider that any WH40K game is merely a microcosm within a larger battle, so while a force may seem atypical, it might simply be the "fluffy" representation of a peculiar force within a more typical larger force.

 

A typical White Scars strike force might look very different from a task-organized White Scars strike force, yet both are equally "fluffy." Matching the theme of an army doesn't necessarily make it "fluffy;" and not matching the theme of an army doesn't necessarily make it "not fluffy."

 

For example, let's explore the theme of the Black Templars. Someone might assert that a "fluffy" Black Templars army should include the Emperor's Champion. However, there is, at most, only one Emperor's Champion in any Black Templars Crusade. Since a full Black Templars Crusade could very easily be much larger than a player's army, a player's Black Templars Crusade might not include the Emperor's Champion. That army might even include some atypical units that aren't necessarily representative of the Black Templars, but which have the possibility of being in a Crusade. The fluff behind such an army might be that it is a supporting effort that incorporates niche elements for their particular capabilities, providing support to the other portion of the Crusade. This atypical army remains "fluffy" based on the lore concept behind it.

 

I once created an army list that was described by another player as the most fluffy they had ever seen. The army list was very atypical for a Codex Chapter. It was described as "fluffy," however, because it was built up around a situation (the Marines Exemplar sending a force to search for and rescue their Chapter Master when his thunderhawk crashed during the Thirteenth Black Crusade of Abaddon the Despoiler).

 

So "fluffy" might be very general in nature (i.e., representing the overall theme of a Chapter) or it might be situational (i.e., a task-organized force based on the background the player has conceptualized).

 

 

 

 

 

* Not a WH40K link, but what I think of any time someone uses "fluffy" or "fluff" instead of "lore-based" or "lore."

[Panzer]

I'd actually say that having an army painted with the official heraldy and not having more of the same battlefield role from the same battlecompany than the fluff says (eg most battlecompanies only have 2 Close Support squads with a squad being 10 Marines so the 3rd, 4th etc Close Support squad would be from a different company) makes an army much more fluffy than any "pick unit x, don't pick unit y" decisions.

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

I view a fluff list as being a list that you build in lore first before considering points or meta. I'm speaking as someone who runs a Captain in Gravis Armor because it fits with my Chapter's fluff to a degree.

[Panzer]

Yeah there's also the definition of fluffy as an opposed term to competetive I guess.

[Claws and Effect]

I consider a "fluffy" list to generally adhere to either how a faction typically wages war OR the specific units that were present at a particular conflict from a story.

 

For example: I could put together a list comprised of White Scars, Raven Guard, and Catachan with Khan, Shrike, and Straken all present.

 

Or I could run Raven Guard with a lot of Scouts and jump infantry with fire support mostly coming from aircraft.

 

Or I could field a Knight Paladin alongside my Raven Guard if it is painted as the Obsidian Knight.

 

All 3 are examples of what I consider a fluffy list. It doesn't necessarily have to be a list that is deliberately hampered by unit choice to "fit the fluff", but there has to be solid reasoning for why your army has that particular unit in it beyond "it performs the best on the tabletop".

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

Occurs to me another example of a fluffy list would be a counts-as AM Felinid list.

 

Edit: by the way, I meant this as a joke, but it's true. Just like a Gue'vesa list is 100% fluffy done right, or a Heretic Militarum or Dark Mechanicus list without running Forge World's rules.

Edited May 11, 2019 by Zephaniah Adriyen

[Marshal Mattias]

It really can come down to personal taste too.

 

In 7th I ran one of my favourite lists featuring CC-heavy Black Templars lead by a Marshal in an LRC, accompanied by a a Sororitas warrior-priest and a Hereticus Inquisitor, with fire support from a small band of Sisters carrying flamers, and a contingent of Steel Legion guardsmen.

 

To one observer, it would be a game-y soup of imperial factions designed to maximise the crossover of special rules. To another, it's a fluffy tale of a crusade in the Ash Wastes during the third war for Armageddon, rallying the remnants of a hive city's shattered defences, reminiscent of the kind of official artworks you'd find on the 3rd edition BRB or Codex:Black Templars.

[N1SB]

Have I got a story behind a story for you guys here on this question.

 

A FLGS here has a pretty competitive WAAC meta, that even tourney players are a little bit annoyed by it as people tend to chase the most popular netlist of the month, and it gets boring.  For their new tournaments, the shop introduced 1 friendly but mandatory stipulation: write a 1-page story (front & back) about your army.

 

Thus, regarding what makes a list "fluffy", at 1st I thought this was a good check: can you WRITE a short story about it?

 

However...technically any idiot can write, "32 loyal guardsmen at an Imperial base were about to be attacked, so they prayed to the Emperor and suddenly Blood Angels and a Knight Titan showed up.  The End."  The goal is more about explaining an army, not rationalising it.  But during this process, we learned something else.

 

Now that these tourney lists have accompanying short stories, it turns out the best test was this: would someone else enjoy READING your army's short story?

 

The eventual winner of the tourney, or at least 1 of the finalists, was a Genestealer Cult list.  I don't remember the exact result, but it was up there, because what was scariest about that list was its accompanying short story.  The actual army was dominant, lots of GSC tricks, but it's his 1-pager that we all remember.

 

We nicknamed it 50 Shades of Purple, because the guy did his research and used an old Latin phrase as his title, but it was essentially if Cliver Barker played 40k, then wrote about the Borgia family in space...with all their debauchery...and they were Genestealer Hybrids.  It has become legendary in Hong Kong and South China.

 

Judging our own armies' lore-friendliness is like a father judging if his son is handsome just like his old man; there's an inherent bias.  And our learning here is, that simple test of "would someone else read your army's story" is pretty much the real test.  It's ok if you didn't write it, like it's based on a 30k novel, but there it is.

[Gederas]

I'll reiterate what everyone else says:

A Fluffy list can seem like a WAAC list, depending on the observer's viewpoint. For example, I'm thinking of a list that involves Dark Angels and Imperial Knights. To a casual observer, it'd look like one of the many "Knights getting Command Points from another army" list, but the fluff for it is my Dark Angels (non-Primaris) are 30k-based, and the Knights will be House Orhlacc, which was a Knight House the Dark Angels rescued.

 

So the force will, essentially be House Orhlacc fulfilling it's Oaths to the I Legion, even after the breaking up of Legions.

 

The other reasons why I'm doing this list? I LOVE stompy robots, and want to try the Knight Preceptor and Helverins out, I don't like the official House colours outside of Griffith, and House Orhlacc's colours are a very nice combination that I like, which compliments my primarily black Dark Angels :lol:

[MajorNese]

My personal definition: If it could have come directly out of a short story or codex timeline entry, then it's fluffy.

 

Yes, every chapter has a bit of everything, so they may field some of the more atypical units, for a certain situation. For example in Horus Heresy, there was the Alpha Legion waging a large-scale tank battle/siege against Iron Warriors, or Iron Hands being sneaky because their losses don't allow anything else. A short story had Raven Guard engage tyranids on open field, to lure them into an area rigged to blow.

 

But the more inconsistencies in this picture arise, by different armies/timeframes/levels of commitment or very limited battlefield roles present, the more it goes back to WAAC lists. One tournament list back in the day (before mixing detachments was restricted) saw Girlyman himself leading 4 leviathan dreadnoughts, to save 4 IG mortar teams. Having a recently resurfaced primarch show up to save cannonfodder (8 guardsmen), supported by a score of the most ancient (and identically equipped) war machines they can find (leviathans) would be really hard to justify. In this example, it was designed as a tournament list, so fluffy was not a concern to anyone. Now every tournament list starts with "there are 32 loyal guardsmen being rescued by", so that is getting so old and obvious that no one can call it fluffy.

 

How unfluffy a force can be depends on the background too. Astartes fluff has everything ranging from single-marine deployments to full chapter force, every chapter has a unique fighting style, and equipment ranges from "rare ancient relic" to "got that just yesterday". Creating a fitting picture means restricting unit choices, which many people will refuse to do.

As prime example how unplayable that can be - a fluffy battle company of 100 marines, according to standard template, could be done at 2000p if not using vehicles. Drowning an opponent in PA dudes probably won't work, though in fluff it's a singularly powerful force.

 

In contrast, many of the smaller armies are hard to field in an unfluffy way, as long as allies are out of the picture. For example AdMech has so few unit choices, the only typical list that doesn't look realistic is the good old "Stygies dragoons + Carl's Wall" list. Every other list is more well-rounded and has leaders, footsoldiers, heavy support and maybe fast outriders/elites. There are few other choices, and by this, pretty much every battlefield role is present. Fielding Questor Mechanicus knights would be fitting too - the fluff has overlaps, they are stationed on forgeworlds, they fit the same timeframe, and protecting these revered machines would be a given duty to the skitarii. But once other armies start coming into the picture, it starts to make less and less sense. Iron Hands? Yes, fluff fits. Ultramarines? Maybe, if they were in the area. Custodes? Not even the omnissiah knows why they are there. And so on...

[War Angel]

A lot of good responses here. I think most of us are on the same page, and the rest of us are at least reading the same book.

 

I keep seeing talk of “32 loyal guardsmen” can someone explain this?

[ShibeKing]

3 10x man Infantry Squads. 2 Company Commanders. Acts as a CP battery and provides decent board control at a low cost. Vital for most imperial lists to play at competitive levels... from what I'm told.

[Trevak Dal]

In a battalion,

 

Hq should be a Captain, a lieutenant (maybe a second lieutenant), and subsequent detachments should have appropriate HQs (not other captains).

 

The chapter Master if he isn't Pedro Kantor or Gabriel Seth shouldn't be on the table for a mauled chapter.

 

Your army should be a collection with no more than three of a given unit (yes, even tacticals since you get so many options for troops) built around the rough concept of a Company.

 

I like the idea of the veterans being company veterans instead of them being brought in from other companies, but I can see why that would work, but still, in my head my Terminator guys are the same as my sternguard and vanguard and are assigned as needed by the Force Commander (me).

 

Flamers and meltas belong on fast moving units (assault marines), plasma and grav belong on regular infantry.

 

Tacs should take special/Combi of the special and a heavy Bolter or missile launcher.

 

Devs should have appropriate weaponry for the battle. Generalist loadout would be missile launchers.

 

Troops should be 10 man in a battalion.

Edited May 11, 2019 by Trevak Dal

[Claws and Effect]

I keep seeing talk of “32 loyal guardsmen” can someone explain this?

To expand on the previous explanation:

 

It's a Battalion detachment consisting of 3 Astra Militarum Infantry Squads and 2 Company Commanders.

 

It nets you 5 CP for only about 180 points, and any Imperium army can take the detachment without losing their Battleforged status.

 

It's really popular right now to take for competitive armies that struggle with getting CP otherwise, like Custodes and Knights.

[Trevak Dal]

Yo dawg if they had to Max out squad sizes or take transports to unlock battalion command points though...that would pin that Rickey Tick.

[Volt]

The best way to tell a fluffy list from a comp list is that a fluffy list includes underperforming units. You might have an amazing drop list for Tempestus Scions, but you're still going to have a Commissar for an HQ because that's just the way things are organized. You might have a hellblaster death star as dark angels, but there's going to be tactical marines and assault marines too. You might have a Night Lords army with Chaos Bikes and Obliterators; but there's going to be Warp Talons and Raptors too. Etc.

[Jacques Corbin]

This discussion thread is EXACTLY why GW needs to put out more, More, MOAR campaigns! Not everything has to be Ultramarines have Primaris, so now they are even more courageous and more honorable, or Ultramarines delivering Primaris to other chapters, and saying take these guys in, or answer to Guilliman and/or the Custodes.

 

I get the most excited about the 40K hobby, when the edition changes, when my codex for my army drops, when the newest Chapter Approved drops, and when a campaign drops. Campaigns expand the fluff, with new settings and heroes. There are new missions, box sets, and sometimes even new models. A campaign gets my friends and I talking, scheduling matches, brewing up lists, and expanding our collections. Then, there is the rush to assemble and paint your latest acquisitions, so you can show them off at the next hobby night.

 

So, I agree, a "fluffy" list for a faction is one based on that faction's depictions in the lore. We just need more lore, so keep the campaigns coming. Like, I want to see the filthy Tau try to expand into either Night Lord or Iron Warriors territory, thinking Space Marines are Space Marines, and realize, to their horror, that heretics wage a different type of war than loyalists. Or the Black Templars get tipped off as to the activity of the Ynnari. They receive reports of Xenos using strange witchcraft in Imperial Space. Xenos, witches, that are heretics amongst their own kind(s)? I can just imagine Grimaldus giving an epic speech, while a Castellan tells a Techmarine to go wake the Dreadnoughts, because they will not want to miss this.

[Skalpynock]

A few very specific examples:

 

-Not using any volkite or other time-inappropriate tech in a Marines list set in M42. The technology was already prized by the end of the Great Crusade, until Cawl restores it your Chapter's single Caliver will remain in a stasis vault.

 

-not using kinda-specific characters. Most notably Captain Acheran of the Ultramarines, who isn't technically a "named character" ruleswise, but I hope people modify his model if they want to field a Phobos Captain from something other than the Ultramarines 4th (?) Company

[Panzer]

-not using kinda-specific characters. Most notably Captain Acheran of the Ultramarines, who isn't technically a "named character" ruleswise, but I hope people modify his model if they want to field a Phobos Captain from something other than the Ultramarines 4th (?) Company

 

That's a weird one for me. It's only Acheran in the background of the box as GW likes to give boxset characters some quick background fluff. In the grand scale of 40k it's just a regular nameless Phobos Captain. Especially since Acheran didn't survive the events in the box' fluff anyway.

[golfdeltafoxtrot]

This is the sort of discussion that I like to see. I’m a fluff first guy (my main gaming background is in RPGs where fluff is vital) so to see so many people engaging with the concept of fluffy armies warms my fluffy heart.

 

For me a fluffy army is one that coherently fits in the 40K world at large, but also accommodates details that might be too small scale to have been fully recognised in a rulebook.

 

For instance, my Raven Guard force is being built as a combined arms task force from companies 5 and 10. It’s got Tactical Marines, the backbone of most non-Primaris Chapter battle companies. It’s got Assault Marines, it’s got a Devastator Squad - again both the archetypal close support and fire support choices. But it’s also M42 so there are Reivers, who I see the RG using as elite infiltrators, and Aggressors to provide a fire base. It’s got two Scout Squads, one of whom rides in a Land Speeder Storm to enable them to become familiar with using vehicles and rapid deployment tactics, as is the RG way.

 

But you also have to look at the little details that make your force yours, like the way you paint personal heraldry or which marks of equipment you choose. My Sternguard Veterans carry Stalker-like suppressed bolters as in my 5th Company they act as a fire support and HVT elimination unit. My Scouts all wear carapace helmets with inbuilt vox systems and none of my Marines are bare headed - why go into battle not protecting your most important piece of equipment? One of my Scout squads deploys from a LSS as a mobile reserve so they carry Corvidae-pattern bolters - a pattern I’ve created with stocks, reflex sights and extended box magazines to enhance their capabilities in close range firefights.

 

I think the best fluff has elements of both of the above - big picture stuff that believably fits within the established lore, and small scale stuff that you’ve read about or creates yourself that really makes it clear that you’ve thought about how your force fights.