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Assault Intercessors instead of SB Veterans


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#1
ambit

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I know that SB/SS Veterans with a SB/PM Terminator or 2 is generally seen as the most efficient load-out for competitive lists, made even more so when you could combine SIA with Better Bolters.

 

However, now that you can't combine SIA and Better Bolters, I'd like to get other DW players thoughts on Assault Intercessor squads with 1 Bolter Inceptor and 1 Boltstorm Aggressor.

 

1) You can drop them 18" from enemy lines, instead of 12" (well out of charge range) and use Vengeance rounds for 2 x S4 AP-2 D1 shots each.

2) Not only can they fall back and shoot, but they can advance and shoot each turn without penalty to stay in ideal range.

3) Max efficiency is at 18", rather than 12". So you are less succeptible to return fire and counter charges.

 

8 Veterans + 2 Terminators is roughly equivalent in price to 8 Intercessors + Inceptor + Aggressor.

 

Yes, you give up the invul saves from a SS, but you get more ablative wounds, higher threat range and more mobility.


Edited by ambit, 15 May 2019 - 09:28 AM.

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#2
SwashBuccaneer

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I've used an assault kill team of primaris in a few games and they have yet to make their points back. They are very expensive and despite having more wounds they get chewed up pretty hard by mortal wound spam and concentrated fire.

I seem to roll like crap though so others might have had better luck with them. :P

Edited by SwashBuccaneer, 15 May 2019 - 10:11 AM.


#3
Kallas

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If you're running pure Primaris, it's a different kettle of fish; if you're running mixed, I don't believe it has much value as the Primaris would be better served bringing tools that Veterans can't (eg, Hellblasters for anti-armour).

1) You can drop them 18" from enemy lines, instead of 12" (well out of charge range) and use Vengeance rounds for 2 x S4 AP-2 D1 shots each.


You could just use Veterans and do the same thing? There's nothing that says Veterans absolutely must drop in as close as possible. For maximum firepower, sure Veterans want to be closer, but they still kick out good firepower at range (it's straight up the same as an Auto Bolt Rifle at over half range).

2) Not only can they fall back and shoot, but they can advance and shoot each turn without penalty to stay in ideal range.


Advancing without penalty is nice; I don't personally believe that it's worth the loss of Storm Shields, though.

3) Max efficiency is at 18", rather than 12". So you are less succeptible to return fire and counter charges.


The models kicking out SIA have the same ranges, but the Inceptor and Aggressor both have 18". If you're firing at 24-30" with Hellfire/Kraken, the Inceptor/Aggressor is doing nothing which is more of a loss in firepower than a Vanguard is.

Veterans have the flexibility there. The difference in maximum efficiency is that Veterans are the same at 18-30", worse at 12-18", but better at 12". If the unit doesn't need/want to move, the Veterans can utilise Bolter Discipline against the targets that the Aggressor likes and be more effective.

I wouldn't say that this is a clear cut 'Intergressor squad has the advantage' because battlefield situation is very important and there are many where the Veterans have their own advantages.

8 Veterans + 2 Terminators is roughly equivalent in price to 8 Intercessors + Inceptor + Aggressor.

Yes, you give up the invul saves from a SS, but you get more ablative wounds, higher threat range and more mobility.


You give up the Storm Shields, but you don't, really, get more wounds because you're now open to all of the anti-MEQ guns out there. Plasma, Disintegrators, etc.

The main advantage of this Intercessor team is that it's kind of faster than other infantry.

Simply put, Primaris are highly vulnerable to too much stuff. A unit that trades away some of their inherent advantages over Veterans (eg, the Bolt Rifles' range and AP) for some slight extra movement is likely not going to be great.

But try it out. It may work well! Let us know!
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#4
GrinNfool

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Intercessors are almost always better served by bringing bolt rifles than auto bolt rifles, especially with bolter discipline being a thing, and assuming you aren't running pure primaris.  There is a range in there that the auto bultgun is marginally better, over 18" and under 24", but thats such a narrow range for such a minor gain I just don't think its worth it in general, 18" for veng auto is the same as 18" kraken bolt rifles. 

 

Also to your point of 18" being out of charge range, maybe for some less threatening armies, but most of the scary melee armies 18" is well within reason, orks, harlies, nids, all of those the difference between 18" and 12" is pretty minor, much better to be 30" away with a bolt rifle if you want to be safe. 

 

In addition the +1 wound vs the 3++ it really depends on how saturated your local meta is with disintegrator and plasma type weaponry, ie, high ap 2+ damage guns.  If you see a lot of that then they are no more survivable and in fact could very well be worse off.  At any rate I don't think the auto bolt is horrible, just a bit out classed by other choices.  Most primaris options are like this though, where 1 option is just generally better than the others.

 

Edit: Honestly I think the auto bolts should be Assault 3 instead of 2, then I think it would be a lot more give and take between the 2 variants of guns, now that bolter discipline is a thing.


Edited by GrinNfool, 15 May 2019 - 06:30 PM.

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#5
ambit

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I don't believe it has much value as the Primaris would be better served bringing tools that Veterans can't (eg, Hellblasters for anti-armour).

 

So the Intercessor squads with multiple Hellblasters + 1 Plasma Inceptor offer something the veterans and intergressors don't (anti-tank).

 

I guess it goes back to what you need more of then - anti-tank, kiting melee armies, or clearing hordes.


Edited by ambit, 15 May 2019 - 11:39 PM.

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#6
Mr4Minutes

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I’ve used the assault versions a few times as well, and they never seem to work out. Primaris seem to be survivable until they’re not. Then they’re dead. And what I mean is they live against the small arms fire your opponent throws at them when they aren’t a priority. Then the opponent realizes they need to die and the just get deleted.

I like the hellblaster fortis teams because they lend themselves to a more tactical set up, and so survive longer. The assault versions I probably play to aggressively and try running them at my opponent.

Assault plasma is an interesting option with them. No additional risk to overcharge if you need to, and the lower strength goes with the targets they’re usually engaging. It’s overpriced and not really competitive but fun sometimes.

And I completely agree with the need to retool the assault/heavy versions of both the bolt rifle and plasma rifle. You end up paying more points for a worse version. Both assault versions should be assault 3(possibly no overcharge option on plasma) and the heavy plasma should be d3 shots and the stalker bolt rifle should have sniper or heavy 2.
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