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Cubicle 7 taking over 40k RPG!


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#26
PeteySödes

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I've never been an RPGer,not had the inclination in the past. Recently played two short W&G campaigns and we all had a blast.

Genuine question: If you love the FFG RPGs, why would you want a new one anyway? Can't you keep playing infinitely?

Excuse my ignorance,I genuinely don't know as I've never been the GM.

 

For me it's the split preference. DH and the rest of the range are amazing, crunchy, tactical games brimming with character built in. The game is just distilled 40k for me. That said, to your point, the crunch is everyones cup of tea but I would still love to play a 40k RPG with my hobby friends that appreciate a more storytelling based game.

 

Games like Blades in the Dark or Dungeon World are ones that I enjoy immensely too so having a solid 40k ruleset in that style would be wonderful.

 

At the risk of putting words in mouths i don't think anyone is hating on WG for simply not being DH because yea you can just keep playing it. I think the disappointment was with the quality of the game. Like any RPG though with the right group a game that may be night universally disliked can work wonderfully.


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#27
N1SB

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As someone who played W&G over a months-long campaign at his Warhammer Store, just for me I didn't find the comments in this thread snobbish or hatred-filled.  I think the criticisms people mentioned here were valid.  I enjoyed our W&G game, our characters, the storytelling experience, but I myself saw the flaws 1st hand.

 

What were people that enjoyed W&Gs aspects that they would like to see stay or improve in the, what I assume is, new edition?

 

Even before I read this question, I was thinking about the issue, along the lines of "what would I want to see in a new Wrath & Glory edition?"  I think Brother Petey framed the issue perfectly, so I categorised my thoughts under what I'd like to Stay (i.e. the pros) vs. Improve (the cons):

 

What I'd like to Stay (Pros):

 

+ a d6 dice pool system, as everyone has d6s, can even use cool faction dice for RP flavour

+ a points-based character creator, precisely because it feels like building a 40k army list

+ actual RP rewards in the form of the Wrath Objectives (like invoking the Primarch's name in combat)

 

What I'd like to Improve (Cons):

 

- definitely 1000% expand on lore in the post-Cadia 8th ed Era

- I would even completely overhaul W&G's actual d6 pool system

 

I will now elaborate on those 2 areas for improvement (cons that I see in W&G), because it's not negative criticism, it's really what can use a positive change.

 

 

+++ Lore in the Post-Cadia/8th ed Era +++

 

 

"Life outside a 40k battlefield," what Dan Abnett called "the domestic side" of 40k, was something that Dark Heresy and all the FFG 40k RPGs did exceptionally well.  You could enjoy those splatbooks without ever having played the games, just for their lore.  Whether or not people like W&G's game system, it lacked any sort of lore beyond a brief overview of the 40k universe.

 

Even without trying to "win back" Dark Heresy players, I definitely think it's worth expanding on the lore of the post-Cadia era.  Life in Imperium Nihlus that's been split by the Great Rift, how Cadians are preserving their traditions by training Guardsmen on other worlds despite/because their own has been destroyed, life with Primaris, what's it like to be the potentially the last generation of Marine Scouts, etc.  There is a lot of content there that I think 40k fans would like to explore, in the same way that Dark Heresy explored life before.

 

It's totally understandable why the original W&G didn't cover all this material, because it wasn't fleshed out yet when the RPG was in the works.  Now that situation has changed.  TL;DR - the plot has moved forward, but the lore has not, this is an outstanding opportunity to catch up, even for people who don't want to play W&G.

 

 

+++ Overhauling W&G's Actual D6 system +++

 

 

It probably sounds contradictory how I listed a d6 dice pool system as a Pro then W&G's actual d6 system as a Con, but it's not.  The reason is: I love the idea, but I did not entirely like the execution.  As a creative exercise, I tried to brainstorm an alternative that is even more streamlined while retaining 40k's flavour, which I felt was something W&G could've done better.

 

That alternative is...basically actual 40k core mechanic, from any edition.  Most rolls in 40k is a dice pool that involve X number of dice, for values of Y (or higher), that are counted as Z results.  For example, during the Shooting Phase, a full Tactical Squad of Marines rapid fire 20 dice, needing values of 3+ due to their Ballistic Skill, to register as successful hits.  Now I'll re-map that...just as an example...a d6 dice pool RPG system.  I tried to make this as simple as possible, I ask only you keep an open mind.

 

In this example d6 dice pool system, I'll just illustrate how a shooting check is made.  It involves an Attribute + a Skill, Agility and Ballistic Skill respectively.

 

Attributes, like Agility, determine the number of dice you can roll.  A normal but trained human, like a Guardsman, has a baseline Agility stat of 3 let's say (referring to how they've historically had statlines of 3 across the board) and rolls 3 dice.  A superhuman, like a Space Marine, has a baseline Agility stat of 4, as a counter-example, and rolls 4 dice.

 

Skills, like Ballistic Skill, determine the value of the dice needed to register as an Icon, a passing mark.  A regular Guardsman, having gone through basic boot camp, has a Ballistic Skill of 4+, his dice need to roll a 4 or higher to register an Icon.  A Space Marine is better trained, and needs only a 3+ to register an Icon, to show he has better aim.

 

Icons needed, as set by the GM depending on the situation, are what determine if the shot hits, like a difficulty level.  1 Icon needed represents a basic task, like shooting a training dummy.  2 Icons represent a combat situation, like shooting a moving target.  3 Icons represent a tactical situation, like sniping someone hiding in cover.

 

(Putting this together, let's imagine a Space Marine trying to hit a target hiding in cover.  He rapid fires his Bolter (so he can make 2 shooting attempts as an action whereas other weapons usually only get 1).  He rolls 4 dice, needing 3+'s, and wanting more than 3 icons a.k.a. 3 3+'s.  He misses his 1st shot but manages to hit with his 2nd.  I think that's very intuitive while being extremely close to the feel of 40k.)

 

Now, let's consider Critical Successes and Critical Failures, when you do really well or really badly.  Let's say Criticals are based on rolling doubles of 6's and 1's, the highest and lowest numbers on a d6.  A double 6 is a Critical Success that gives a party member a re-roll in that encounter, like that Space Marine hit his target so well it exposed the target, like it staggered him out of cover.  A double 1 is a Critical Failure, like the weapon jammed, the Machine God was displeased or something.

 

But wouldn't that potentially punish characters with high Attributes, since they roll more dice, they risk rolling more doubles of 6's and 1's?  Now we introduce fluff-based rules, like Bolter Drill: any Space Marine character can ignore a single roll of 1 when it pertains to Critical Failures on Bolt weapons.  ONLY Space Marines get this to represent their expertise with their signature weapon, even though, say, Commissars and other Guardsmen officers can get a Bolter.  That's like how in Necromunda high-ranked Gangers can purchase a Bolter, but often suffer from ammo rolls.  It's not just a rule, it's to encapsulate the flavour of 40k.

 

As someone who played W&G for months, it wasn't as streamlined as people may think based on rules-reading, but more importantly, it didn't feel like 40k.  It's hard to quantify or qualify that feeling, but it's like I'm playing a lite version of Vampire: the Masquerade using d6s in a D&D setting.  I did this just as an idea, on the principle that it's easy to criticise but harder to do something about it, so I did something that feels more like 40k.  I'll probably run this idea with my W&G mates next time I see them at our Warhammer Store.

 

 

+++ Conclusion +++

 

 

I picked out 2 aspects for improvement, expanding the lore for a post-Cadia 40k setting and improving its particular d6 dice pool system (while still using a d6 system).  I think it's easier to "fix" the former, not so much the latter.  On paper, both in the rulebook and the comic strip literally illustrating W&G's core mechanic, it looks very simple, but it ends up with quite a lot of book keeping like in Dark Heresy, kind of defeating the purpose of simplicity.  It's probably impossible to make it feel like Dark Heresy Next, but I think it can be made to feel like 40k: the RPG: Imperium Nihlus Special Edition.

 

It's a tough situation.  I spent time on explaining a new d6 pool system NOT to say "see, it's so easy to improve this," but to do the opposite and say "wow, I can see how hard this is, I tried to do it myself and I appreciate the enormity of the task."  Having gone through this exercise, I'm very curious what W&G hopes to change.


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#28
Panzer

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I've never even seen any of the old rpg systems for 40k nor fantasy, but I got to say after reading through the W&G rules and watching some live play, it seemed way too bland for my taste so I can definitely understand where the others are coming from. That being said I'm also simply used to more complicated and fleshed out systems since I'm playing mainly The Dark Eye 4.1 (Das Schwarze Auge in germany) and Shadowrun 5.


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#29
WarriorFish

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Posts have been removed, including some tidy up. Let me reiterate that the B&C is here for constructive and respectful discussion on the hobby. Unfortunately that was missing here.

 

Please do your utmost to ensure this isn't necessary again, if you can not disagree with someone nicely please reconsider the merits of your post. It is very disappointing to see and does not reflect well on those doing it at all. There are some who should very much know better, and know the consequences too. Please stay on topic also, so those who wish to discuss this news and what it may bring can do so in peace. Thanks in advance.


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#30
Bung

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As someone who played W&G over a months-long campaign at his Warhammer Store, just for me I didn't find the comments in this thread snobbish or hatred-filled.  I think the criticisms people mentioned here were valid.  I enjoyed our W&G game, our characters, the storytelling experience, but I myself saw the flaws 1st hand.

 

What were people that enjoyed W&Gs aspects that they would like to see stay or improve in the, what I assume is, new edition?

 

Even before I read this question, I was thinking about the issue, along the lines of "what would I want to see in a new Wrath & Glory edition?"  I think Brother Petey framed the issue perfectly, so I categorised my thoughts under what I'd like to Stay (i.e. the pros) vs. Improve (the cons):

 

What I'd like to Stay (Pros):

 

+ a d6 dice pool system, as everyone has d6s, can even use cool faction dice for RP flavour

+ a points-based character creator, precisely because it feels like building a 40k army list

+ actual RP rewards in the form of the Wrath Objectives (like invoking the Primarch's name in combat)

 

What I'd like to Improve (Cons):

 

- definitely 1000% expand on lore in the post-Cadia 8th ed Era

- I would even completely overhaul W&G's actual d6 pool system

 

I will now elaborate on those 2 areas for improvement (cons that I see in W&G), because it's not negative criticism, it's really what can use a positive change.

 

 

+++ Lore in the Post-Cadia/8th ed Era +++

 

 

"Life outside a 40k battlefield," what Dan Abnett called "the domestic side" of 40k, was something that Dark Heresy and all the FFG 40k RPGs did exceptionally well.  You could enjoy those splatbooks without ever having played the games, just for their lore.  Whether or not people like W&G's game system, it lacked any sort of lore beyond a brief overview of the 40k universe.

 

Even without trying to "win back" Dark Heresy players, I definitely think it's worth expanding on the lore of the post-Cadia era.  Life in Imperium Nihlus that's been split by the Great Rift, how Cadians are preserving their traditions by training Guardsmen on other worlds despite/because their own has been destroyed, life with Primaris, what's it like to be the potentially the last generation of Marine Scouts, etc.  There is a lot of content there that I think 40k fans would like to explore, in the same way that Dark Heresy explored life before.

 

It's totally understandable why the original W&G didn't cover all this material, because it wasn't fleshed out yet when the RPG was in the works.  Now that situation has changed.  TL;DR - the plot has moved forward, but the lore has not, this is an outstanding opportunity to catch up, even for people who don't want to play W&G.

 

 

+++ Overhauling W&G's Actual D6 system +++

 

 

It probably sounds contradictory how I listed a d6 dice pool system as a Pro then W&G's actual d6 system as a Con, but it's not.  The reason is: I love the idea, but I did not entirely like the execution.  As a creative exercise, I tried to brainstorm an alternative that is even more streamlined while retaining 40k's flavour, which I felt was something W&G could've done better.

 

That alternative is...basically actual 40k core mechanic, from any edition.  Most rolls in 40k is a dice pool that involve X number of dice, for values of Y (or higher), that are counted as Z results.  For example, during the Shooting Phase, a full Tactical Squad of Marines rapid fire 20 dice, needing values of 3+ due to their Ballistic Skill, to register as successful hits.  Now I'll re-map that...just as an example...a d6 dice pool RPG system.  I tried to make this as simple as possible, I ask only you keep an open mind.

 

In this example d6 dice pool system, I'll just illustrate how a shooting check is made.  It involves an Attribute + a Skill, Agility and Ballistic Skill respectively.

 

Attributes, like Agility, determine the number of dice you can roll.  A normal but trained human, like a Guardsman, has a baseline Agility stat of 3 let's say (referring to how they've historically had statlines of 3 across the board) and rolls 3 dice.  A superhuman, like a Space Marine, has a baseline Agility stat of 4, as a counter-example, and rolls 4 dice.

 

Skills, like Ballistic Skill, determine the value of the dice needed to register as an Icon, a passing mark.  A regular Guardsman, having gone through basic boot camp, has a Ballistic Skill of 4+, his dice need to roll a 4 or higher to register an Icon.  A Space Marine is better trained, and needs only a 3+ to register an Icon, to show he has better aim.

 

Icons needed, as set by the GM depending on the situation, are what determine if the shot hits, like a difficulty level.  1 Icon needed represents a basic task, like shooting a training dummy.  2 Icons represent a combat situation, like shooting a moving target.  3 Icons represent a tactical situation, like sniping someone hiding in cover.

 

(Putting this together, let's imagine a Space Marine trying to hit a target hiding in cover.  He rapid fires his Bolter (so he can make 2 shooting attempts as an action whereas other weapons usually only get 1).  He rolls 4 dice, needing 3+'s, and wanting more than 3 icons a.k.a. 3 3+'s.  He misses his 1st shot but manages to hit with his 2nd.  I think that's very intuitive while being extremely close to the feel of 40k.)

 

Now, let's consider Critical Successes and Critical Failures, when you do really well or really badly.  Let's say Criticals are based on rolling doubles of 6's and 1's, the highest and lowest numbers on a d6.  A double 6 is a Critical Success that gives a party member a re-roll in that encounter, like that Space Marine hit his target so well it exposed the target, like it staggered him out of cover.  A double 1 is a Critical Failure, like the weapon jammed, the Machine God was displeased or something.

 

But wouldn't that potentially punish characters with high Attributes, since they roll more dice, they risk rolling more doubles of 6's and 1's?  Now we introduce fluff-based rules, like Bolter Drill: any Space Marine character can ignore a single roll of 1 when it pertains to Critical Failures on Bolt weapons.  ONLY Space Marines get this to represent their expertise with their signature weapon, even though, say, Commissars and other Guardsmen officers can get a Bolter.  That's like how in Necromunda high-ranked Gangers can purchase a Bolter, but often suffer from ammo rolls.  It's not just a rule, it's to encapsulate the flavour of 40k.

 

As someone who played W&G for months, it wasn't as streamlined as people may think based on rules-reading, but more importantly, it didn't feel like 40k.  It's hard to quantify or qualify that feeling, but it's like I'm playing a lite version of Vampire: the Masquerade using d6s in a D&D setting.  I did this just as an idea, on the principle that it's easy to criticise but harder to do something about it, so I did something that feels more like 40k.  I'll probably run this idea with my W&G mates next time I see them at our Warhammer Store.

 

 

+++ Conclusion +++

 

 

I picked out 2 aspects for improvement, expanding the lore for a post-Cadia 40k setting and improving its particular d6 dice pool system (while still using a d6 system).  I think it's easier to "fix" the former, not so much the latter.  On paper, both in the rulebook and the comic strip literally illustrating W&G's core mechanic, it looks very simple, but it ends up with quite a lot of book keeping like in Dark Heresy, kind of defeating the purpose of simplicity.  It's probably impossible to make it feel like Dark Heresy Next, but I think it can be made to feel like 40k: the RPG: Imperium Nihlus Special Edition.

 

It's a tough situation.  I spent time on explaining a new d6 pool system NOT to say "see, it's so easy to improve this," but to do the opposite and say "wow, I can see how hard this is, I tried to do it myself and I appreciate the enormity of the task."  Having gone through this exercise, I'm very curious what W&G hopes to change.

 

 

I read your thoughts about the d6 system, what you describe is similar to previous Editions of Shadowrun. You could get some good ideas from there to improve the W6G dice system.

Personly im not a fan of to much mixed groups like haveing a Rogue Trader, Space Marine and  a Cleric in one group.

I preferd the idea of having different rulebooks for different styles of games.

Dark Heresy for a more classic system or some eldritch horror alá Lovecraft

Rogue Trader for exploration theme like Star Trek or some adventure liek Firefly

Deathwatch for amore  action packed hero experience

 

Go with your group and choose your poison. 


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