Why are Intercessors so much worse than SB/SS Vets?

[GameDadZ]

Hi, just getting back into Warhammer from many years of absence and have fell in love with the lore of Deathwatch! Sadly it seems they are a difficult race to play and very few units are actually utilized. I am a fan of number crunching and would love to get some advice on this SS/SB spam.

 

I am wondering about how pure most lists for DW seem, with the troop choices almost being exclusively SS/SB vets with captains and masters for boosting those SB shots. It is odd considering pure Intercessors actually beats this very combo, with or without terminators.

 

Here is my understanding of why they are superior:

 

1) They have more damage output at shorter ranges. A deep strike can give them instant 37 shots with -1AP or 2+ Wound with 8x vets, one terminator and VV.

 

2) more survivable due to terminator and SS. Squad has 11 wounds.

 

But those two advantages both seem quite situational and not at all that universal.

 

For the same cost you can have a 9x intercessors with a plasma inceptor.

 

1) they can use 18 rounds of vengeance ammo which is equivalent to about 27 shots from storm bolters against 2-4+ saves. There Hellfire rounds won’t be nearly as strong except that they could do it at 15” rather than 12”. Then there is the 4x plasma rounds from the inceptor which would be much better at tough targets.

 

2) This unit has 20 worlds total but no 3++ or 2+.

 

In theory, Intercessors should have many favorable match ups including against SB/SB vets. I would also think it’s worth mixing them up to actually hold back field objectives, perhaps even with stalker bolters that come with heavy 1 and -2 AP if they don’t plan on getting close.

 

Another variant for the same points is 7x Intercessors , 1x hellblaster and 1x inceptor for 14 Bolter shots and 6 plasma. Gives the plasmas 14 ablative wounds to play with.

 

Perhaps there are just too many 2 damage weapons in most lists, but I imagine that most times people have horde clearing weapons and that heavy weapons tend to target things like my crusader in the back. Intercessors can do very well at long range if there are short range 2D threats.

 

I am clearly just wanting to field a larger variety of troops and gear because I’m a painter/collector first. I am honestly curious from the experienced players what parts of each army are just going to chew through Intercessors. I would personally much rather want to paint two vet squads with a mixed Intercessors squad of course and I will actually invest in the AM battalion with crusader so I have a decent chance. But I am going to buy the whole range of Deathwatch for display so would definitely want to use them once in awhile.

Edited May 18, 2019 by GameDadZ

[GrinNfool]

So SB/SS super squads are better than intercessors, assuming they are in rapid fire range, and GENERALLY in terms of survival.  This comes from leveraging the terms 2+ save vs small arms fire, and the 3++ against anything else, though.  Intercessors, and primaris in general, can suffer pretty badly from weapons that are pretty common to see, like plasma, disintegrators, auto cannons or other ap w/ multi damage weapons.  Vs weapons like that primaris are far worse as 20 wounds is meaningless and the 3++ is much more valuable.  Vs something like a las gun or normal boltgun though the 20 wounds actually become meaningful and the primaris squad is harder to kill.  Often times it depends what you are against as to what the best option is, and that comes down to the groups you play with and what you tend to see a lot of.  In some local metas the primaris can be much more effective than vets in others its the opposite.

 

For me personally I tend to mix, I will run 1 SB/SS super vet team with a term or 2 and a VV, as well as some primaris squads sometimes a big fortis of 5 int 4 HB and 1 intercessors plasma.  Would also say no need to buy into the whole SB/SS or bust craze either, there is room for many different squads and it saves you CP (from not having to teleportarium all of them) and points to build squads in other ways.  Also not every squad needs to be loaded for bear... people do this all the time and I don't get it.  There is something to be said for target saturation for your opponent, if all you present your opponent to shoot are 3 super squads then thats what gets shot.  The super squads tend to be very immobile as well, as you can't shove them in a rhino/razorback, forcing those armies to rely on bikers for mobility which while good can be hard to fit enough of into a list spending 600+ points on 3 vet squads.

 

Basically TL;DR version is the one thats better depends largely on match up and your local meta of what you expect you will end up fighting against a lot.  If you have a lot of DE, plasma, or auto cannon type weapons in your meta than vets are better, if you have a lot of non/low ap 1 damage shooting than the primaris are more survivable, but nothing says you have to use 1 or the other, having both and deploying properly can get things done for you.

[Finkmilkana]

They deal far less damage and are less survivable. Slightly more range (veterans are usually still better up to 30’) doesn’t really help with that. And at long ranges stalker bolter vets are better.

Intercessors, while having a slight advantage, also don’t necessarily win a direct duel with veterans. The veterans have twice the shots in many situations (countering the 2 W) and don’t care about the intercessors extra AP.

The only place where intercessors have a real advantage is massed very low AP fire and mortal wounds. While MW are a real problem for vets, marines (especially with a termi in the team) are already reasonably durable against it. It’s plasma and equivalent that kills marines.

 

That said, fielding 1-2 intercessors squads for back/mid field duty is not necessarily bad, they just often don’t really fit into most competitive lists. If the DW are allies, they should not be used to hold the mid field like that, it’s what the rest of the army is for. The DW units are there to kill as much enemy infantry as fast as possible and vets are best at that.

 

And if you play pure DW, adding infantry without invuln adds tasty targets for plasma, grav etc to remove, while only playing SS vets makes enemy high AP weapons almost useless. It’s the typical 40k problem of “skew list >> mixed target list”, enabling the opponent to shoot at near optimal targets with all his guns is usually not optimal.

[Lemondish]

They deal far less damage and are less survivable. Slightly more range (veterans are usually still better up to 30’) doesn’t really help with that. And at long ranges stalker bolter vets are better.

Intercessors, while having a slight advantage, also don’t necessarily win a direct duel with veterans. The veterans have twice the shots in many situations (countering the 2 W) and don’t care about the intercessors extra AP.

The only place where intercessors have a real advantage is massed very low AP fire and mortal wounds. While MW are a real problem for vets, marines (especially with a termi in the team) are already reasonably durable against it. It’s plasma and equivalent that kills marines.

 

That said, fielding 1-2 intercessors squads for back/mid field duty is not necessarily bad, they just often don’t really fit into most competitive lists. If the DW are allies, they should not be used to hold the mid field like that, it’s what the rest of the army is for. The DW units are there to kill as much enemy infantry as fast as possible and vets are best at that.

 

And if you play pure DW, adding infantry without invuln adds tasty targets for plasma, grav etc to remove, while only playing SS vets makes enemy high AP weapons almost useless. It’s the typical 40k problem of “skew list >> mixed target list”, enabling the opponent to shoot at near optimal targets with all his guns is usually not optimal.

The funny part is that he's still going to shoot you with those weapons because they're still 20 ppm 1 wound 3+ save models that operate in such a short threat band and that's still a great return.

[Mr4Minutes]

A Fortis team with 5 hellblasters is really good. And it’s also a good example of why primaris in general aren’t good. One round of shooting with just the plasma (10 shots in rapid fire with a captain and reroll 1s to wound) did 8 ap-4 D2 damage to my friends infiltrators.

 

For me intercessors in general don’t do enough damage to be a big threat. And there’s cheaper options to cover the backfield defence. While a full squad does have 20 wounds, it’s still only 10 models. It’s weakness is multi damage weapons, which usually have high ap values and damage. Which means they usually won’t get a good save against the weapons that kill them in one shot.

 

Where the vets get a 2+/3++ and good transport options they’re far more dependable for board control. And they have a strong damage output.

 

With DeathWatch being an elite army I find you really need a plan for every unit. Vets with SS/SB, 2 Termies and a VV you get a decent amount of flexibility.

[Lemondish]

I'm not sure how that is supposed to prove that Primaris aren't good. Those Infiltrators did what they were supposed to. You just spent a turn firing at a screening unit.

 

Also not sure there are good transport options for a mixed Vet squad with 2+/3++. Land Raiders and Corvus only, I think.

 

And I agree you need a plan with every unit - but the sheer undercosted value you get from a storm bolter/storm shield squad means you really only have one plan.

[Mr4Minutes]

I just meant how quickly they can be wiped. My own squad shooting a mirror of itself would have removed the mirror.

 

In my use I’ve found primaris to be really polarized in their durability. It’s either really tough or really easy.

 

Sorry for not being clearer on the transport comment. What I meant was that Vets in general have more options to be moved around the board.

 

I’ve actually found SS/SB vets to have good versatility. Yes they murder most screens, but they can put the hurt on multiple types of units. The only thing I think they are really bad against is T8 vehicles. With stratagem support they can threaten most other units.

 

To sum up my thoughts on DeathWatch primaris: They die too easily for the points you have to pay for them. They are not a set and forget unit. You really have to pay attention to positioning with them to avoid their hard counters.

[Maarten]

A good DW player near me runs what he calls bully squads of 6 intercessors, 2 aggressors and 2 reivers to combat squad. These are fairly cheap 5 man units that are relatively fast(assault bolters + no penalty) have a charge deterrent(the aggressor) and can easily tie up an enemy unit in CC(reiver's nade + powerfists on the aggressor) and now that Bolter drill is out again the auto bolt rifle has become valid again.

 

They're not so much a unit you take to kill things, but instead use to grab objectives&annoy units that can't deal too much damage in CC, while your scarier units throw around massive amounts of bolter fire.

[Morticon]

I just played a tournament using both of these squads.  

A ten man veteran squad with five shields, five SBs and 5 bikers (for T5 average and 15 wounds) and then a ten man Intercessor squad (with one riever - who was the most useless addition of the list <_<). 

In short, good opponents targeted the SS vets with high volume, and the Inters with high damage weapons.  Their survivability was situational. That being said, the Termy/SB definitely lasted longest in most cases. 

In terms of damage output - horses for courses.  They both came to bat well when needed and allowed me options. 

I think you'd be gimping yourself if you chose one over the other, instead of both of them. 
 

[Gederas]

I just played a tournament using both of these squads.  

 

A ten man veteran squad with five shields, five SBs and 5 bikers (for T5 average and 15 wounds) and then a ten man Intercessor squad (with one riever - who was the most useless addition of the list ). 

 

In short, good opponents targeted the SS vets with high volume, and the Inters with high damage weapons.  Their survivability was situational. That being said, the Termy/SB definitely lasted longest in most cases. 

 

In terms of damage output - horses for courses.  They both came to bat well when needed and allowed me options. 

 

I think you'd be gimping yourself if you chose one over the other, instead of both of them.

This.

 

Deathwatch is an army that gives you a TON of tools, and not using everything in your disposal gimps yourself.

 

I'm planning on trying the Old One-Two (Three): 2 Squads of Veterans, one tooled as an Anvil and one tooled as a Hammer, and a foot-slogging Fortis Squad (because a properly built Fortis squad can't fit in a Repulsor....).

[Lemondish]

DW is an illusion of choice. You have a lot of options, but if you find Intercessors to be an inefficient use of points, then anything outside of SS/SB is also an inefficient use of points. 

 

Sadly, the outlier happens to be the build that has turned DW into the most competitive Astartes force: storm bolters and storm shields. The storm bolter problem is new to this edition and this codex. The storm shield issue is new as of the latest CA18. Things will shake out over time, but for right now there are two tiers to DW...

 

1. Efficient and effective by using the storm bolter and storm shield combo above all else

2. Less efficient, but every wargear option bar a select few is now available to you

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Which wargear ?

[Lemondish]

Which wargear ?

Anything other than storm bolters and storm shields, which includes all pistols, all combi weapons, all melee weapons, and all heavy weapons. Even frag cannons have disappeared in the face of the cheap and ultra efficient storm bolter and storm shield combo.

[Kallas]

 

Which wargear ?

Anything other than storm bolters and storm shields, which includes all pistols, all combi weapons, all melee weapons, and all heavy weapons. Even frag cannons have disappeared in the face of the cheap and ultra efficient storm bolter and storm shield combo.

Having been using Frag Cannons recently alongside SB/SS I think they're viable. They're expensive, probably 2-5pts too expensive, but they bring a lot of utility and power to a unit.

 

They're maybe not viable anti-armour as the only anti-armour in a list, but they're a good secondary source; and Frag Shells are certainly still damn powerful.

 

They might not be statistically better than SB/SS, but statistical choices aren't the only factor, even competitively. Frag Cannons provide a different S/AP/D profile to the SB, which is important, but they're not wasted against the same targets so can compliment SB Veterans well while covering anti-armour. Unlike, say a Heavy Flamer, they're not wasted when sitting back on an objective as they can fire as far as the SB.

 

Further, Frags can seriously dissuade charges where even massed Storm Bolters probably won't.

 

Basically, statistical viability is one thing; tabletop effect is another. Internet competitive options tend to look at statistical viability only, because it can be quantified against many different things quite easily, but effect is extremely hard to understand because of the wildly differing circumstances (terrain layout, mission, opponent's army composition and playstyle; your army composition and playstyle, etc).

 

 

EDIT:

Point being, I disagree that SB/SS is the only viable competitive option. It's certainly extremely viable, but I'd wager that there's value in, for example, Combi weapons as that gives a good spectrum of targets that is complimentary to the Storm Bolter (eg, T8/3+ becomes more manageable).

Edited May 21, 2019 by Kallas

[Trollbeard]

I play against Thousand sons quite regularly, and the frag cannon is one of the better guns for taking out rubrics and scarab occult’s due to the D2. It stops “All is dust” from working which makes the rubrics quite resilient against bolters fire, even with the hellfire rounds.

 

I also play against a lot of orks, and the amount of times it has dissuaded a charge, or severely blunted a charge is awesome, it makes the opponent think of its worth sometimes eating the 2D6 autohits per gun. And I usually run 2 cannons in my vet squads.

 

I love the Frag cannon and never leave home without one!

 

Side note, anyone else feel like it would have been cool to have a dreadnought be able to equip the frag cannon? Or even a twin frag cannon? Would give us a unique option, but alas.

[Lemondish]

 

 

Which wargear ?

Anything other than storm bolters and storm shields, which includes all pistols, all combi weapons, all melee weapons, and all heavy weapons. Even frag cannons have disappeared in the face of the cheap and ultra efficient storm bolter and storm shield combo.

Having been using Frag Cannons recently alongside SB/SS I think they're viable. They're expensive, probably 2-5pts too expensive, but they bring a lot of utility and power to a unit.

 

They're maybe not viable anti-armour as the only anti-armour in a list, but they're a good secondary source; and Frag Shells are certainly still damn powerful.

 

They might not be statistically better than SB/SS, but statistical choices aren't the only factor, even competitively. Frag Cannons provide a different S/AP/D profile to the SB, which is important, but they're not wasted against the same targets so can compliment SB Veterans well while covering anti-armour. Unlike, say a Heavy Flamer, they're not wasted when sitting back on an objective as they can fire as far as the SB.

 

Further, Frags can seriously dissuade charges where even massed Storm Bolters probably won't.

 

Basically, statistical viability is one thing; tabletop effect is another. Internet competitive options tend to look at statistical viability only, because it can be quantified against many different things quite easily, but effect is extremely hard to understand because of the wildly differing circumstances (terrain layout, mission, opponent's army composition and playstyle; your army composition and playstyle, etc).

 

 

EDIT:

Point being, I disagree that SB/SS is the only viable competitive option. It's certainly extremely viable, but I'd wager that there's value in, for example, Combi weapons as that gives a good spectrum of targets that is complimentary to the Storm Bolter (eg, T8/3+ becomes more manageable).

I would like to point out that I never said they weren't viable. I said they were significantly less efficient. There isn't a 1 to 1 corollary between efficiency and effectiveness. Other DW options can work, don't get me wrong.

 

They just aren't nearly as efficient at doing it as the SS/SB Veteran squads.

Side note, anyone else feel like it would have been cool to have a dreadnought be able to equip the frag cannon? Or even a twin frag cannon? Would give us a unique option, but alas.

I always thought it would make a ton of sense if DW could add chapter specific Dreadnoughts like BA ones (where they have an actual frag cannon).

[spacewatch]

Totally agree ...with everyone, haha  SB/SS Veteran Kill-Team has optimal effectiveness yes, but yes it starts to feel a bit boring after several games. Luckily there are good options that work rather well too. I love Frags too and I have had good experiences with Frag unit where there are 2-3 Frags, Vanguard, 3 Termies and rest SB+SS. Frags still are nightmare against troops and Termies give good resilience against counter attacks so you can play very boldly with this unit which is fun. Another good variation I have found rather interesting is unit that has 2 Termies, Vanguard, 3 Combi-Plasmas and rest SB+SS. This unit has practically same effectiveness than all SB+SS unit but it gives options to handle elites and characters and can help in vehicle hunting too. So very multi-purpose and because of just six RF plasma shots very rarely looses a Veteran due to overheating, especially when Capt or WM nearby. If unit feels too expensive or I just need points elsewhere then I just drop SB+SS Vet(s) because Combi-Plasma Vets can have SS.

 

Actually in my most current list my Alpha battalion (my spearhead battalion) is built around these units (one Frag and two Combi-Plasma units) and so far they have synergized rather well: good protection, plenty of SIA shots, Frag autohits and charge protection and when needed up to 12 S8 D2 plasma shots. Other Alpha units I use are Heavy plasma+DCCW/SB Venerable Dread for distraction and jump Smash Captain & jump Libby for extra damage&mortal wounds. At best all these together cause a lot of destruction and dead bodies to enemy army.