Recovery of Progenoid Organs?

[nooker]

I figure one of you would know this.  Can any Space Marine recover Progenitor Organs from a fallen comrade or is it exclusively the Apothecary?  I got to reading some lore and was struck by the number of situations that a Space Marine can fall without the presence of an Apothecary that I got to wondering if others could do the job.  I know that SM have two, but it still seems like it isn't possible to recover enough if it is simply left to just Apothecaries to do the job.

[Mazer Rackham]

I remember reading somewhere that due to a shortage of Apothecaries on campaign, a Marine who was an understudy or something used a combat knife, I think it was in a Salamanders book or a Silver Skull doing it, but I could be wrong and I think it's a rare exception.

 

A very keen example are the Celestial Lions, whose Apothecaries were assassinated by the Inquisition, ahem Ork Snipers and without the Docs about, their Geneseed was left to rot on Armageddon and left the Chapter in an incredibly precarious position.  Given the hallowed nature of the job and the mysticism around the whole implantation process I'd say only someone with the tools and the skills would be able to recover the Geneseed successfully.

 

Could another Marine do it in a pinch?  Possibly, would depend on the Chapter, how many Marines had the training.  They could also offset the losses by applying to the Administratum to have a portion of their donated Geneseed tithe returned, so they do have a get-out, but it's a slight chance.

 

MR.

[PeteySödes]

The Wolf Priests use the Fang of Morkai which as I understand it is basically just a brutal set of blades. Likely risky for a rank and file to attempt it but since its so precious I cant imagine they wouldn't try in a dire situation.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Hack away the arms and legs, scoop up the torso. Jobs a gooden

[Panzer]

I guess it's mostly a lack of tools that makes it less plausible for other Marines to do it. It's kinda hard to crack through the Power Armour or Terminator Armour and the reinforced bones etc. to get to the organ and then you have to properly extract it and store it while the mission goes on.

[Mazer Rackham]

I would imagine so, trying to store the Geneseed without the stasis capsules in the Narthecium is like trying to transport a heart to a transplant patient in a polystyrene coffee cup.

 

MR.

 

Edit: The_Son_Of_Dorn, doing it that way, don't you mean 'job's a Dreadnought?' 

Edited May 21, 2019 by Mazer Rackham

[Arkangilos]

I think they just leave it in the body, and when they get a chance to recover that they store it until an apothecary can come along.

 

If I remember correctly, they used to say that they would do almost anything they could to recover the fallen for that reason (that and their precious armor).

Edited May 21, 2019 by Arkangilos

[Leif Bearclaw]

IIRC at one point the progeniods removed after X many years anyway, as a matter of course, once they'd matured. So a Marine who's seen a century of service (hardly an excpetional feat by Marine standards) would already have had his glands harvested. Which imo just makes more logistic sense than waiting for Marines to die before getting access to the vital gene-seed to keep the Chapter going. But that's probably been retconned in the name of more grimderp.

[Panzer]

IIRC at one point the progeniods removed after X many years anyway, as a matter of course, once they'd matured. So a Marine who's seen a century of service (hardly an excpetional feat by Marine standards) would already have had his glands harvested. Which imo just makes more logistic sense than waiting for Marines to die before getting access to the vital gene-seed to keep the Chapter going. But that's probably been retconned in the name of more grimderp.

 

Yeah that as well. Any Marine that has been in service for long enough should have it already removed anyway.

[Brother Tyler]

Each Space Marine has two progenoids. If I recall correctly, at one point there was lore that one of the progenoids was removed when the Space Marine was mature enough to don power armour and the other was left in until the Space Marine died (or severely wounded to the point where they might be a candidate for being interred in a dreadnought sarcophagus). I don't recall the source for the timing of progenoid removal, and I don't have time to research it right now. :(

[redmapa]

If Im not mistaken its in Index Astartes where they detailed the Astartes creation process and in it described that progenoids could be removed after a number of years but most chapters didnt do it because it helps regulate the other organs.

[CCE1981]

I remember reading a short story where a Space Wolf recovered the gene-seed of his squad. I think the specialized tools help ensure a “perfect recovery” as well as safely transporting and storage, but isn’t required. The said Space Wolf had almost immediate egress and was on board a ship pretty quickly afterwards.

 

Understandably the books are accounts of especially dangerous missions. Most missions recovering the geneseed of downed Marines is probably a little easier than the lore would suggest.

[Gederas]

Each Space Marine has two progenoids. If I recall correctly, at one point there was lore that one of the progenoids was removed when the Space Marine was mature enough to don power armour and the other was left in until the Space Marine died (or severely wounded to the point where they might be a candidate for being interred in a dreadnought sarcophagus). I don't recall the source for the timing of progenoid removal, and I don't have time to research it right now.

Most recent novel I read that involved progenoids mentioned this (Legion of the Damned) and in it, because the company commander realized it was a near suicide mission, had the apothecary remove every Marine in the company's progenoids and take a shuttle off-planet to safeguard the future of the Chapter.

[Jareddm]

This is a discussion that's decades old (and one I'm sure most of us have had more than once). The clearest answer I've received was from Laurie Goulding here: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/thefirstexpedition/gene-seed-production-t1959-s30.html?sid=721cfd2a1f261e051579d297b61fcdf2&amp=1. Yes, he doesn't work for BL anymore. Yes, he's rough to talk to. Still. He would have a better sense of what's "canon" behind the scenes than we would. He directly states the events portrayed in Legion of the Damned (which was the basis for my whole argument on that thread) as inaccurate and that a marine needs one progenoid still inside him to live. Hence why even though the second progenoid is mature at 10 years, it is not removed.

 

I still personally like the idea that astartes keep their progenoids as long as possible for superstitious reasons. That they somehow absorb a marine's more intangible traits. His honor, his courage, his charisma. That the longer a marine has his progenoids, the more these traits will manifest in the recruit that eventually receives the organs it produces. However, as stated in the linked thread, this is not the case.

Edited May 22, 2019 by Jareddm

[Trevak Dal]

Regarding the first removed, memba they get taxed. And as the Astral Claws learned, the Imperium is going to take what it's owed, easy way or hard way, you mess around you might get a melta gun facial.

[slitth]

I do not think is a matter of skills or tools.

But more about what is proper and what is not.

Many things in 40K Imperium has left the realm of science and has become a ritual.

 

If a power armour doesn't work right it more likely to oiled 7 times with secret oils while a tech-marine prays to the machine spirit, that be taken apart completely and repaired.

 

I would bet that Progenoid Organs cannot be correctly removed unless the proper rites are performed.

Failing to do this would lead to spiritual corruption of the chapter.

[MegaVolt87]

I thought they could remove both, as long as they were replaced with fresh, un-matured ones? Or do they need at least one mature one for genetic stability? 

[Kinstryfe]

Iirc, and as this thread shows we're all doing a lot of recalling, a Marine gestates two sets. One is removed at maturity, and is basically keeping numbers stable minus the tithes to the Mechanicus. The second is removed at death and is hinted or outright said to be fatal in its removal. Effectively if a chapter recovers every mature gland, they suffer a minimal shrinkage due to tithing. Apothecaries then are to ensure that they can keep growth stable or positive. It seems like this allows a lot of wiggle room for suicide missions and the like, where it isn't able to be retrieved, as long as the first set is removed prior to death.

 

To the original question, I'm honestly not sure. I have to imagine that at least some Marines are given training in how to do some aspects of medical care even if they're not apothecaries (Brother Bob showed great aptitude for healing, but even greater aptitude for killing, so he got some training before becoming an assault Sergeant or what not), but I imagine in some situations it's just an inevitable or expected result of certain missions.

[Brother Tyler]

From the Warhammer 40K Compendium (1989) Chapter Approved article on The Origin of the Legiones Astartes (1st edition):

 

 

 

Phase 18 - Progenoids. There are two of these glands, one situated in the neck, the other deep within the chest cavity. These glands are important to the survival of the Marine's chapter. Each organ grows within the Marine, absorbing hormonal stimuli and genetic material from the other implants. After five years the neck gland is mature and ready for removal. After ten years the chest gland becomes mature and is also ready for removal. A gland may be removed anytime after it has matured.

 

These glands represent a chapter's only source of gene-seed. When mature, each gland contains a single gene-seed corresponding to each zygote implanted into the recipient Marine. Once removed by surgery, the progenoid must be carefully prepared, its individual gene-seeds checked for mutation, and sound gene-seeds stored. Gene-seeds can be stored indefinitely under suitable conditions.

 

From Codex: Ultramarines (2nd edition):

 

 

 

Space Marines rarely go to battle without an Apothecary. The Apothecary is a warrior of supreme might and bravery, whose role is to save what he can of the Chapter's gene-seed.

 

The lore for both the progenoids and apothecaries have remained consistent through the editions. It is the Apothecary whose role it is to remove progenoids from the fallen, and they are equipped with the reductor for that purpose. Any lore depicting non-Apothecaries (Wolf Priests in the Space Wolves Chapter combine the role of Chaplain and Apothecary) removing progenoids probably depict exceptions, progenoid removal conducted in extremis. All Space Marines learn a bit about combat medicine (stated in 1st edition lore), but they lack the deep training and equipment to perform progenoid removal except under duress, and most likely with much more risk than that incurred by an Apothecary.

[Leonaides]

Always added to the fact that if you have removed all your progenoids then you have a pile of fleshy bits that suddenly need to be guarded and preserved or your chapter is toast, while if you only remove 1/2 of them you just need 50-100 surviving marines to be able to rebuild.

[Mazer Rackham]

I thought they could remove both, as long as they were replaced with fresh, un-matured ones? Or do they need at least one mature one for genetic stability? 

 

This is actually brought into question in the book "Wolf of Fenris" when a Silver Skull has both his Progenoids harvested by the ex-Astral Claws Corpse-Taker in chief (name escapes me apologies) and he is returned to his chapter.  There is some stigma attached, as although he is declared fit for duty, the Apothecarion are worried about him for stability reasons and his brothers see him as a lesser individual for not having any of the glands.  It was a full brother, so both glands would have reached maturity.

 

I admit it's an author's take and milage on it may vary, but it's an interesting snippet.

 

MR.

[MegaVolt87]

I would say the Mechanicus tithe is pretty steep, as most decimated chapters seem to struggle re-building after they have mass casualties. I don't see chapters having a big reserve of geneseed. Having one would probably make other organizations suspicious. 

[Stoic Raptor]

Each Space Marine has two progenoids. If I recall correctly, at one point there was lore that one of the progenoids was removed when the Space Marine was mature enough to don power armour and the other was left in until the Space Marine died (or severely wounded to the point where they might be a candidate for being interred in a dreadnought sarcophagus). I don't recall the source for the timing of progenoid removal, and I don't have time to research it right now.

 

This was my understanding as well.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I always looked at that the progenoid in the neck is the one removed early because it is comparatively easy to get to. The one in the chest is hidden behind the rib-shield, which is why the narthecium has the piston-ram and drill for breaking through the bones. Even under laboratory conditions, cutting through a fused plate of ultra dense, ultrahard bone without inflicting other injuries on the subject isn't going to be easy, and besides, cutting a hole in the plate weakens its integrity and thereby makes the subject more prone to injury.

[MegaVolt87]

Lies, Iron Hands just push a button to open up their darth vader robot suits to take out the geneseed jar.