Legion Lieutenants Discussion - Just an idea

[StruManChu]

I've been wondering about Legion Lieutenants a bit recently and how to represent them on the table. I can't remember exactly, but I'm pretty sure the rank is at least mentioned in the at least some of the HH novels (Vengeful Spirit has a BA Lieutenant, Loken is a 'Shield-Lieutenant' in Angels of Caliban), and they're definitely in the older 40k lore which a lot of what we see in 30k is harking back to.

 

In any case, there are definitely some standouts in the novels who potentially warrant a better stat line than a Sergeant's in terms of representing them on the tabletop. Nero Vipus, Selaton and Anchise of the XIII - Heck, even Aeonid Thiel's a sergeant and he's a complete nutcase.

 

I'd propose that once a tactical squad hits 20 men, you unlock an upgrade for the Sergeant that allows him to become a Lieutenant, which is basically a Centurion-lite stat-wise. Can't be a Consul, and not an independent character, representing him leading the rank & file element while the actual HQ goes off and chomps through other stuff. Importantly, this stops you from having to use the already crowded HQ or Elite slots to give your Tactical Squads a bit of a boost.

 

This upgrade gives the Sergeant/Lieutenant +1A, +1W and +1LD for +20 or +25 points and access to slightly more wargear - Refractor Fields would be a good one, otherwise he's still very much insta-killable, despite the +1W. I'm not sure about boosting WS or BS, because at that point you get to the equivalent of a Centurion and that's not quite the point. Instead of that perhaps have a rule called 'Fated for Greatness' or something like that, granting a single reroll of one failed to hit dice in a challenge. It's not much, but it add a little flavour without being overbearing.

 

Any thoughts? This is obviously entirely conjecture and unlikely to come to anything, but I feel like there's a gap and I'd like to have a go at filling it.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'm pretty sure that the centurion is supposed to be a broad term to catch a whole bunch of ranks; it actually specifically mentions Shield-Lieutenant in its fluff piece on the side.

[Marshal Rohr]

Skimask is right, a Lieutenant and Centurion would use the same unit entry, 

[StruManChu]

Be that as it may, I don't know if I've ever seen a non-Consul Centurion on the table, because Consuls are just too good. Beyond that, if I wanted to represent a Lieutenant I wouldn't want to waste an HQ slot to do it, so just spit balling an idea to find a different way of doing that.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

I'm in the process of designing a similar HQ unit to what you describe, but they function in a way similar to Apothecaries, in that a single unit consists of 1-3 Lieutenants, and they have to be attached to squads in the same way. Can never be a compulsory HQ in a Primary Detachment, nor a Warlord.

[Marshal Rohr]

I'm in the process of designing a similar HQ unit to what you describe, but they function in a way similar to Apothecaries, in that a single unit consists of 1-3 Lieutenants, and they have to be attached to squads in the same way. Can never be a compulsory HQ in a Primary Detachment, nor a Warlord.

After this was posted earlier I wondered if all Force .org slots shouldn’t be 0-3 choices like tercios. The Legiones one being 0-1 Lieutenant, 1-3 Tactical Squads, 0-1 Support Squads but no more than three squads may be taken.

[UtariOnzo]

Centurion seems the acceptable unit to already represent a lieutenant. Going back to said old 40k stuff, IIRC a lieutenant was a HQ choice with a statline lower than a captain’s. They were good filler HQs and acted as 2nd in command of a company. In real life lieutenants don’t command oversized singular units either, they command platoons that are broken down into smaller units and move between them (or communicate to them) various orders that the unit commanders (corporals/sergeants) would then put into practice.

 

An upgraded squad leader just feels all kinds of wrong for what the fluff and the real life equivalents describe.

[rendingon1+]

I'm pretty sure that the centurion is supposed to be a broad term to catch a whole bunch of ranks; it actually specifically mentions Shield-Lieutenant in its fluff piece on the side.

Basically this. If someone wants lieutneant centurion entry is a go to. Besides how should lieutenant be represented? By additional special rules? If so, normal centurion has none - lieutenant shouldn't have them either.

On the other hand, if lieutenant was some kind of weaker stats HQ/Elites choice for cheap - thanks a lot, nope. They will only act as a carrier for spamming legion specific equipment (like WSglaives) or powerfists.

 

Consuls being more popular is a consequence of centurion bringing nothing to the table in terms of buffing or else. It's only more pronounced with extremely cheap consul upgrades that are not support officer.

 

BTW people do use vanilla centurions when their Legion specific weapons are good. I've seen DoW list with preator and two budget centurions with blades of perdition. You don't always need specialized dude, just a beatstick (and very few consul choices help at that role to be fair). And let's not forget Space Wolves

Edited May 30, 2019 by rendingon1+

[Marshal Rohr]

I think Heresy has been out long enough and Age of Darkness being separate from 40k rules means we could do with a rework of how army lists are built and how HQs work. Like I’m of the opinion each Consul should have an optional RoW. I think each force organization slot should represent its own detachment, the way vehicles and Dreads are taken. I think access to vehicles should be unlocked by points, to encourage infantry heavy games. Don’t even get me started on the core rule changes I’d want :D.

[noigrim]

If a vanilla centurion is a captain then the consuls are his liutenants/specialists

[Gorgoff]

If a vanilla centurion is a captain then the consuls are his liutenants/specialists

But a Centurion can be anything you want him to be from Seargant in charge, a leutnant or a captain.

[noigrim]

The name centurion implies that he commands a company of 100 men

[Gorgoff]

The name centurion implies that he commands a company of 100 men

And his fluff says he can be whatever you want him to be.

Captain of thousands, Shield Leutnant of a boarding party... you name it.

So no need for another HQ.

[rendingon1+]

I'd rather have new non crappy units (like power maul terminators)/old units revamped instead of another hero option. We're literally drowning in HQ choices

[Vykes]

The name centurion implies that he commands a company of 100 men

 

which gets all the more funny as a century of the Roman Legion wasn't strictly 100, but as few as 60 or as many as 160 (with typically 80) under the more commonly seen system depending on which line cohort it belonged too Tis something of a linguistic false friend, as it were. 

 

Honestly, I still use centurions as lieutenants and then have the 'specialists' as the consul types.  It just makes more sens to me, and the ever so sighted 'praetor' doesn't suddenly feel wonky like a Lord Commander of the Emperor's Children leading a 30-60 man company. A strike captain 'praetor' just feels more sensible with another lieutenant along for the ride. 

 

Like Rendingon said, I'd kinda prefer more 'useful' units and old revamps instead of hero options. But I'd be okay with a lieutenant option under a significant AoD revamp like Marshal Rohr's brought up: retool the force org slots with infantry using 'detachments' like the older Imperial Guard codex which could include something like Tactical platoon (0-1 lieutenant, 1-3 legion squads 0-1 tactical support squads, maybe 0-1 apothecary) then giving him a lighter non-consul centurion upgrade*. I already internally organize my company like that right now. 

 

*In our local league we've been batting the idea back and forth of rites of wars and certain compositions and sizes offering free tactical squads and the like in order to promote their use over rite of war compulsory squads and minimum sized rhino tac squads.  

Edited May 31, 2019 by Vykes

[Gorgoff]

If you want to lure people to play more tactical squads you should give them a rule which benefits from more marines.

Something like bonuses on their shooting strength depending on the numbers of models in the unit or it depends on the actual size of a unit if you hold an objective. So for instance if two units are in 3" the unit which has more models gets it.

Something like that would enforce more marines into the units. Or give units with way more models an advantage in cc phase.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Opening up the FoC in a way that has no inherent disadvantage would be extremely bad imo. One of the core parts of 30k list building is restrictions leading to meaningful choices. Certain rites of war allow for certain units to be more accessible, but always restrict a bunch of other things in return.

 

Free units is far too much 40k 7th with the gladius, and that has nothing on the mess the FoC is in for 8th edition.

[Marshal Rohr]

I definitely would go the free unit route. Building each FoC choice as a detachment selected via points would just go a long way for getting more bodies into one list. Paired with unlocking access to the big table sweeper weapons

[SkimaskMohawk]

You can get plenty of bodies into a list if you want to. The problem is for marines, no one wants to. Whipping up that many marines isn't interesting to a lot of people in general, and only one legion really encourages taking a lot of tactical in an exciting way (looking at you, world eaters). Iron warriors might as well, if you really want to play a meat grinder list.

 

80 tacs is 900. Thats a pretty good cost, all things considered and especially so in iron warriors or world eaters; you can throw 9 javelins that are fully loaded in and not even hit 1500. You can make a very annoying list with a ton of guys already, just no one wants to. That will change if you start handing out free 225+ point squads all over the place, referring back to the gladius.

[Gorgoff]

You can get plenty of bodies into a list if you want to. The problem is for marines, no one wants to. Whipping up that many marines isn't interesting to a lot of people in general, and only one legion really encourages taking a lot of tactical in an exciting way (looking at you, world eaters). Iron warriors might as well, if you really want to play a meat grinder list.

 

80 tacs is 900. Thats a pretty good cost, all things considered and especially so in iron warriors or world eaters; you can throw 9 javelins that are fully loaded in and not even hit 1500. You can make a very annoying list with a ton of guys already, just no one wants to. That will change if you start handing out free 225+ point squads all over the place, referring back to the gladius.

The annoying part is to buy and paint those dudes. And those Javelins. But then... should look awesome.

[SkimaskMohawk]

For sure, and that's kind of my point. A lot of viable lists that you never see are restricted by $ or by lack of desire to build + paint. Everyone has 10 tacs and a rhino though.

[Vykes]

-leans on en elbow, deadpan-

Might not be everyone's experience, but it's not that hard to lose 100 tactical marines over 3-4 turns in a 2.5-3K environment. They don't pull much for their weight, either when conventional wisdom is "If at all possible to just get veterans, then do it." I'm not saying they can't work, I'm saying that we're talking about a very select group of legions in the game can really get them to really work. But this isn't about what tacs can do for you, but what "you (lieutenant)" can do for tacs! Or, y'know, more about lieutenants in general.

Without a change to make a lieutenant/FoC more of the 8E bubble effect I'd struggle to see what use they'd be if it's not just a centurion. Again, without some really unique legion equipment, you rarely ever see normal centurions, just the consuls in play. What benefit would they give aside from being a decent little fighter? In my mind it might well need a rework but that's neither here nor there.

Edited June 1, 2019 by Vykes

[SkimaskMohawk]

I stand by my idea that centurion is a catch-all for a whole slew ranks. As is praetor. And by my idea, I mean how the books explicitly say that.

 

They got rules in the centurion and even in the various support consuls if you thought a particular lieutenant was good at a specific role.

[Majorbookworm]

Yeah I think the Praetor/Centurion distinction is pretty much a vehicle for "build your own Legion Officers", with varying ranks/wargear/stats (and thus points costs). Though there is obviously an implied seniority to the former, given the better base stats and that they unlock rites of war. And trying to model 20 different chains of command would be a nightmare. so abstracting it mechanically (and just leaving the ToE minutiae to the players imagination/fluff) makes sense.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Centurion entry is super customizeable. You can do a plain Centurion with Power Sword for what? 60-65 pts? You could also make a super beat stick Champion with Master crafted paragon blade.