Gederas Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 If Thunder Warriors are more resistant to Chaos and more elite, why replace them with SM? Custodes are simply too expensive, but Thunder Warriors don't have that problem. If a small force of TW could police SM, might as well stick with TW Longevity. Thunder Warriors had a nasty habit of breaking down extremely quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 If Thunder Warriors are more resistant to Chaos and more elite, why replace them with SM? Custodes are simply too expensive, but Thunder Warriors don't have that problem. If a small force of TW could police SM, might as well stick with TW Longevity. Thunder Warriors had a nasty habit of breaking down extremely quickly. Put them in stasis/ cryogenics until needed? Kinda like dreadnaughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted June 26, 2019 Author Share Posted June 26, 2019 About the TW, I don't think you'd want your Astartes-policing force to be dying off left and right or going violently insane. Then you'd have to have a force to police the TW who police the Astartes. Might as well police the Astartes with the Custodes. The TW were a hazard the Empire got by with pre-Unification. The TW are neither suitable to police the Astartes nor suitable as substitutes for the Astartes. They were a deeply flawed product. The short life-span would be manageable I think...the tendency to go berserk/insane was much worse IMO. Skalpynock 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 True, though I don't understand the argument for thunder warriors being more resistant to chaos than an Astartes. An Astartes has the superior mind and psychology than a thunder warrior. If anything the fact that all the traitor legions had plenty of pro loyalists in their ranks, making significant purges a necessity shows they still are more stable relatively speaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTrans Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 True, though I don't understand the argument for thunder warriors being more resistant to chaos than an Astartes. An Astartes has the superior mind and psychology than a thunder warrior. If anything the fact that all the traitor legions had plenty of pro loyalists in their ranks, making significant purges a necessity shows they still are more stable relatively speaking. Not sure if they where more resistant to Chaos, but I've read in a few bits and pieces that they where quite resilient or resistant to warp-power shenaniganry. So like if Chaos tried to turn them with insidious warp-trickery it wouldn't work, but if they logic'd it to them and they where obliging that would work. That make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted June 26, 2019 Author Share Posted June 26, 2019 Honestly, no force in the Imperium could effectively police the roughly 2 million strong Legiones Astartes. Even minus the primarchs, they were the Imperium's ultimate military force. The Custodes were too few and insanely hard to produce. The Thunder Warriors, though individually big and strong, were prone to physical and mental malfunction, and my hunch is that they lacked the unit cohesion, discipline, tactical coordination, and combat intelligence of the Astartes. Also, TW may have been harder to produce, though not as hard to produce as the Custodes. No external force could feasibly police the Astartes. The hope was that the Astartes would self-regulate, with Astartes loyal to their gene-fathers, who would remain loyal to the ultimate father. This all failed rather miserably, and it's understandable that the Custodes viewed the Primarchs/Astartes project as a catastrophic failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 We have a very BIG issue here though, No matter what force gets produced be it astatrtee, custode, TW, it all leads to the question who watches the watchers? Personally I've always leant towards the idea that all the original founding legions should of submitted 5-10% of their gene seed tithes towards a multi hybrid legion. So despite of cultural/primarch influences other legions adopted there would always be some sort of "original" Astartee. Not inhibited by the rivalries/ stereotypes that would come to define some legions and draw a greater wedge between them. A sort of "21st" Legion if you will that reported solely to the Emperor or high council, however internally would of followed a Republican style infrastructure in which hypothetical decisions could be made to engage turncoat legions should it ever arise. Here you would have a force separated from the morality of serving their "gene seed" instead of their imperium. Even greater so, it would reinforce that it was not the Geneseed of a legion that was the cause of corruption, but rather the initiates who received it and their personal actions and misconduct that led to becoming traitors. This would lend strength to the future argument of "can we use all this gene seed lying around? I know the traitors used it once but we aint traitors yo" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elzender Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 b1soul, the thing is that at least in my case, I work under the assumption that the policing force does not need to act constantly, just in case of an unruly primarch or a part of a legion going wrong. Thus, you don't need to fight the 2 million astartes, just a couple hundred thousands at most in case of a full legion rebelling (2+ legions rebelling would require an open confrontation and a joint operation from all Imperium forces). Basically, a non-astartes force taking on the role of the Space Wolves to avoid them having the stigma or bad reputation amongst the other legions, and that moreover would be more effective/specialized in such punitive actions. After all, as far as we know, the Space Wolves did not actively police all legions except for their watch packs, which were basically a canary in a coal mine, not a real force able to stop any uprising. I believe the custodes could have taken such a role (and if I recall correctly, they kinda did with the Word Bearers), and a squad of Custodes would probably have more of a chance to arrest/kill a primarch than a squad of Wolves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 Am I the only one who gets the mental image of when the Emperor was leading the Crusade and fought side by side with his sons, they were like "Hey dad! Watch this!" *starts murder blender melee through the strongest enemy formation/position, fatality on enemy commander(s)*. "Very cool son, very cool" *Thumbs up from Emperor*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted June 27, 2019 Author Share Posted June 27, 2019 It would take at least 2 or 3 legions (likely more) to put down a committed, rebellious legion on its home turf without suffering massive loyalist casualties. So it comes back to self-regulation by the legions. No other Imperial force is capable of policing the legions. I wouldn't give the full Ten Thousand led by Valor good odds against a 100,000 strong legion led by a primarch in a war of annihilation. If more than one legion rebels, the Ten Thousand wouldn't be enough. Throwing one legion at another legion would just be silly (and wasn't the original intention of the Emperor for Prospero). It only worked out for the SW because Magnus witheld intel from (and actively sabotaged) his own legion's ability to mount an effective defence. Even then, the SW with Custodes and SoS back-up were mauled badly. As for the TW, I suppose a TW would usually beat an Astartes in one-on-one close combat. I have no idea as to the outcome of a large-scale engagement involving plenty of ranged combat and group maneuvers. So I'm not sure whether a frozen legion of Thunder Warriors would really be that great at bringing down the hammer on a rebellion Astartes legion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionator Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 Some of the advices here do not make sense because the Crusade was rushed. The Emperor feared something, probably uncontrollable rise of Greenskins after the fall of the Eldar Empire. He used whatever he tool he had been able to use with little regard to aftermath. Without primarchs, including the broken ones, he could not achieve that pace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 If Thunder Warriors are more resistant to Chaos and more elite, why replace them with SM? Custodes are simply too expensive, but Thunder Warriors don't have that problem. If a small force of TW could police SM, might as well stick with TW They aren't superior soldiers, even if they're more dangerous fighters close up. Saggitarus the Custodian, dreaming of the Battle of Maulhand Sen, reflects that the Thunder Warriors' advance has none of the cohesion or swiftness that a Legion would bring to the table. "...against the horrors of the Galaxy? The Thunder Warriors would have been annihilated." Vykes 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlisimo Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 True, though I don't understand the argument for thunder warriors being more resistant to chaos than an Astartes. An Astartes has the superior mind and psychology than a thunder warrior. If anything the fact that all the traitor legions had plenty of pro loyalists in their ranks, making significant purges a necessity shows they still are more stable relatively speaking. Not sure if they where more resistant to Chaos, but I've read in a few bits and pieces that they where quite resilient or resistant to warp-power shenaniganry. So like if Chaos tried to turn them with insidious warp-trickery it wouldn't work, but if they logic'd it to them and they where obliging that would work. That make sense? Fighting alongside the two most powerful human (?) psykers ever must’ve helped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D3L Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 If Thunder Warriors are more resistant to Chaos and more elite, why replace them with SM? Custodes are simply too expensive, but Thunder Warriors don't have that problem. If a small force of TW could police SM, might as well stick with TW The TW were short lived and full of genetic instability, they degrade over time, it was and economy of scale decision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted July 4, 2019 Author Share Posted July 4, 2019 Short lived and physically/mentally unstable are not the attributed I look for in a police force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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