Reiver Squad Loadout

[Chaplain Corvid]

I know that the reivers squads aren't really competitive at the moment but what is their best way to set them up? Would the pistol and knife be best or should I use them with the bolt carbines?

[Panzer]

So far they've served me best when they made it into melee eventually. Either by overwhelming a weak flank or by simply tying something up that forces the enemy to deal with them. For that reason and because I really don't need their Bolt Carbines for anything I usually give them the combat blades and pistols loadout. Also ALWAYS with the grav-chutes if you have the points. There's no point in deploying them regularly and the hooks are only better on really terrain heavy boards with lots of LoS blocking terrain.

[MajorNese]

Pistols and knives - sergeant gets carbine and knife instead. Grav chutes too.

 

Ranged, they make little sense. Their awesome grenades are not in range, Ld debuff is not in range, and their shooting is weak or on par with intercessors.

 

To really work, they need to get into CC range and overwhelm enemies in CC by number of attacks and number of wounds. Each reiver is the equivalent of two assault marines in resilience, and 1,5 assault marines in attack count. This might not make them CC powerhorses by any stretch, but when running into objective campers/midfield skirmishers it will show. Also, their cheap deep strike means they can plug a gap where needed or tie down backfield units/score breakthrough/take backfield objectives.

 

So far, in just local pickup games, a squad of 5 was always usable.

[Ishagu]

I run two 5 man squads in almost every game and I'm a big fan.

 

I run them with Carbines, the sgt has a knife and Carbine. You only sacrifice 4 attacks per unit but double your shooting and range. Go Carbine.

 

Don't judge the unit by damage output, instead look at their utility. There is nothing else in the book as cheap in terms of giving you 10 3+ save wounds that can arrive anywhere from reserve without the use of stratagems or transports. 100 points per unit is great.

 

I typically drop mine in turn 3 (sometimes 2) and they mop up the opponent's back field stragglers, score and contest objectives, etc. Very useful.

 

Imagine the board at turn 3. Most big hitters are destroyed, squad sizes are reduced, the armies are scattered around etc. That's when the Reivers should be deployed - not to destroy but to desrupt and mop up. They've won me games and that's saying something

Edited June 7, 2019 by Ishagu

[War Angel]

Do they ever cause many Morale failure?

[Panzer]

I run two 5 man squads in almost every game and I'm a big fan.

 

I run them with Carbines, the sgt has a knife and Carbine. You only sacrifice 4 attacks per unit but double your shooting and range. Go Carbine.

 

Don't judge the unit by damage output, instead look at their utility. There is nothing else in the book as cheap in terms of giving you 10 3+ save wounds that can arrive anywhere from reserve without the use of stratagems or transports. 100 points per unit is great.

 

I typically drop mine in turn 3 (sometimes 2) and they mop up the opponent's back field stragglers, score and contest objectives, etc. Very useful.

 

Imagine the board at turn 3. Most big hitters are destroyed, squad sizes are reduced, the armies are scattered around etc. That's when the Reivers should be deployed - not to destroy but to desrupt and mop up. They've won me games and that's saying something

 

I do judge them by their utility. They have the absolute greatest utility when I get them into melee and there Carbines are completely useless and Combat blades and AP-1 pistols are far more important. Outside of melee my opponent mostly ignores them with Carbines because it's just some few S4 AP0 shots. It's the thought of them getting into melee that makes my opponent pay real attention to them and for that they require the melee loadout.

 

Also the difference between 10 S4 AP0 shots and 5 S4 AP-1 shots is really small. Against Marines it's 1.11 damage vs 0.83 damage. Against Firewarriors/Skitarii it's 2.22 damage vs 1.48 damage. Against Cultists it's 3.7 damage vs 2.2 damage. So at best you kill 1.5 more Cultists. That won't change anything.

 

Their disruptive qualities are simply much higher as melee unit.

 

I agree on dropping them turn 3 though!

Do they ever cause many Morale failure?

 

Never. Morale checks are almost dead this edition again (not as bad as it used to be in 7th though).

[Ishagu]

They still keep the pistols if you equip Carbines so you can still fire them if you chose to, and still get a shot off whilst on combat if you're locked in on your turn.

 

As it stands Carbines are better because it's double the shots at double the range so they can hold an objective and still shoot at a unit 24" away. It's more versatile and the impact to cc is minimum.

 

If the rules for the knives were changed I'd re-visit them. The knives do look cooler, I agree on that.

Edited June 8, 2019 by Ishagu

[MajorNese]

As it stands Carbines are better because it's double the shots at double the range so they can hold an objective and still shoot at a unit 24" away. It's more versatile and the impact to cc is minimum.

I could argue the other way around - once locked in CC, knives add 2A per battle round (one each on your turn and your opponent's), and CC is the one place their Ld debuff might come into play - piling up more bodies definitely helps.

 

Ultimately, 2 shots S4 AP0 at 24" are nothing exceptional for primaris. Intercessors do it cheaper, better, with ObSec and fill a troops slot too. Dakka Redemptor/Repulsor add so many dice (and most of them better than carbine shots), those 4 shots difference between carbine and pistols won't be missed. But having a CC unit with an above average number of attacks and wounds (since few CC weapons are D2) definitely adds something unique.

 

I'd prefer not to limit them for that tiny bit of bolter shots. As said, they're great at disruption with grenades/CC/debuff, trading that for a handful more default shots makes little sense in the role I use those guys. And no one ever feels threatened by a handful of bolter shots, so they don't exactly distract from the important stuff.

[Ishagu]

I'd also argue that they should only engage depleted units in cc, example would be a small infantry squad.

They don't belong in protracted, long battles against hordes that could take multiple turns. Also there's an advantage to shooting the unit you're about to charge with double the shots.

 

As I said combat is only a small part of their utility. Their biggest strength is scoring objectives and mid to late game board control. You've got the rest of your army to blow things up.

Also remember that the sgt keeps the knife and the Carbine. You're only losing 4 attacks in a squad of 5.

 

When I've used them to assault it's only ever been against a relatively small, easy to remove infantry squad. Occasionally I've charged them in to hold something up like a vehicle but the extra cc attacks don't generate much damage in such an example.

I've run a squad with knives but it's never been quite as effective.

[Dracos]

I know that the reivers squads aren't really competitive at the moment but what is their best way to set them up? Would the pistol and knife be best or should I use them with the bolt carbines?

emphasis mine

 

Good to see you’re going into it eyes open. As you can see it’s a two sided coin worth a farthing as far as true value either way though. Math pretty much shows it can go either way ... depending on factors involving your playstyle, army composition, and the games primary and secondary missions.

 

IMO when it’s this close, go with the rule of cool if you don’t see a clear advantage based on your playstyle. I’ll be putting 2 units of 5 together soon and I like the Bolter Discipline rule myself. Thing is though I expect (hope/pray) with a new Codex in the pipeline we might see some rules that improve Primaris combat knifes, and the -1AP on the heavy pistols doesn’t hurt. I’d never refer to them as a melee unit but I’m leaning that direction maybe l be ready to work on mine closer to the end of ETL (yes shameless plugging ;))

[Lemondish]

I'd also argue that they should only engage depleted units in cc, example would be a small infantry squad.

They don't belong in protracted, long battles against hordes that could take multiple turns. Also there's an advantage to shooting the unit you're about to charge with double the shots.

 

As I said combat is only a small part of their utility. Their biggest strength is scoring objectives and mid to late game board control. You've got the rest of your army to blow things up.

Also remember that the sgt keeps the knife and the Carbine. You're only losing 4 attacks in a squad of 5.

 

When I've used them to assault it's only ever been against a relatively small, easy to remove infantry squad. Occasionally I've charged them in to hold something up like a vehicle but the extra cc attacks don't generate much damage in such an example.

I've run a squad with knives but it's never been quite as effective.

I think we understand how your loadout here influences how you use them, I'm just not convinced that I need more of that in my army when I have so much of it already.

 

What I can benefit from is a unit intent on entering melee to tie up a target and throw potentially 8 attacks in the same time I would normally only gain a potential 4 additional S4 AP0 Bolter shots (since you'll often attack in your turn after charging and again in your opponent's turn). They stay a alive longer, disrupt longer, and actually get to use the abilities that make them unique (no matter how weak they seem to be).

 

Not that the carbines aren't viable - you've argued successfully that they are. I just personally don't need any more of what they bring in my force, but I can benefit from the knives because they bring something I don't already have in spades - an aggressive melee disruption unit.

[Claws and Effect]

Leaning toward pistol/knife with mine, with grav chutes. Might magnetize so I can run grapples too.

 

They're just super thematic for a Raven Guard army, because they are designed for exactly how they operate.

[The Unseen]

If I was going to use them, pistols and blades all the way.

But, I play BA, where those extra melee attacks hit harder than extra bolter shots, and play to their strengths of disrupting shooty units and maybe kill something if your lucky.

 

Grapples seem a waste most of the time unless your playing cities of death.

And grav chutes are still worse than scout infiltration, so that's why I still use regular scouts.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They are great for Blood Angels as a melee unit for sure .

[GenerationTerrorist]

I've had good use so far with a pair of 5-man squads armed with CK and HBP, plus Grapnel Launchers.

The Salamanders Chapter Tactic works pretty well in conjunction with the extra attack that the Knife brings.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Grapnel launchers are well worth it and relevant again.

[Ishagu]

I'll say this again. Being able to assault an objective, hold a position and then chip away at a unit 24" away is the reason to run those Carbines.

[Dracos]

I’m almost afraid to see what would happen in some of these discussions if the Astartes Codex was as well written (from a competitive stand point) as the Eldar Codex?

 

:D

Edited June 13, 2019 by Dracos

[MajorNese]

I’m almost afraid to see what would happen in some of these discussions if the Astartes Codex was as well written (from a competitive stand point) as the Eldar Codex?

 

Well, I guess in that case people would still be divided on the loadout.

"Yeah, knives are unnecessary. Take carbines - sometimes you do have to kill TEQ at 60" - the remaining CC is still enough for an ork blob."

"No, knives all the way. Because sometimes you do have to kill a knight a turn in CC, that ion shield takes too many shots otherwise."

[Claws and Effect]

 

 

I’m almost afraid to see what would happen in some of these discussions if the Astartes Codex was as well written (from a competitive stand point) as the Eldar Codex?

 

Well, I guess in that case people would still be divided on the loadout.

"Yeah, knives are unnecessary. Take carbines - sometimes you do have to kill TEQ at 60" - the remaining CC is still enough for an ork blob."

"No, knives all the way. Because sometimes you do have to kill a knight a turn in CC, that ion shield takes too many shots otherwise."

*laughs*

 

...

 

.....

 

*realizes the inherent truth and is a sad raven*

[Lemondish]

I'll say this again. Being able to assault an objective, hold a position and then chip away at a unit 24" away is the reason to run those Carbines.

Absolutely a valid use.

 

But in my experience, so too is a more aggressive approach by dropping quick to tie up a threat on the flank in melee, where the knives serve you better.

 

I'd say the flexibility to equip the unit to do what you need most of is what makes it so damn cool. Also skull masks.

[Dracos]

I miss the days a bolt pistol = +1 attack.

 

Imagine if something like that would be added to the new Codex. Similar to Bolter Discipline, it would suddenly bump every Marine army new and old into a more balanced, less gunline at least, fighting style. On the face it sounds like a powerful boost, and it is but it would be inline with the current meta of everything having more attacks than they use to and seriously the durability problem would seem less hurtful. (My only answer for that is armor rerolls as the new ATSKNF and I don’t see that flying either lol)

 

.... and give combat knives -1 AP ;)

 

 

PS: crap I got squirreled lol. What that was all about was it’s my thought pistols and knives might be a better option for future proofing your models because I believe GW sees the gunline and is likely to start a swing back the other way. just my opinion on that though.

Edited June 15, 2019 by Dracos

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Broadsides can have -1 AP in melee... come on GW.

[Jacques Corbin]

Yeah, the knives should be AP-1. There should also be a relic knife that is AP-2 and ignores invuls on a 4+.

 

Especially now that Infiltrators have dropped, what makes the Reivers stand out is the Ld debuff and their grenades.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Personally I think I would determine the load out based on rule of cool first, then consider if the unit could fill a hole in your list with the right load out.

 

I just think with list building being as flexible as it is now, that from a competitive stand point your at a disadvantage if not your combining the best units from multiple sources. Reivers aren't on the short list of good marine units so treat them as a fun unit.

 

I’m almost afraid to see what would happen in some of these discussions if the Astartes Codex was as well written (from a competitive stand point) as the Eldar Codex?

 

:D

In my experience you see less of these load out topics and more arguments about whether the 2nd tier of units are worth taking. The internal balance of their units has never been particularly good.