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What’s missing from the Primaris line?


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#1
War Angel

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I’ve been thinking about the boxes upon boxes of unopened of classic Marines and trying to decide if I’ll ever get to them, or if I even should. Any time spent on a tactical squad is time I could spend on intercessors. so I’m trying to get some thoughts from players who have fully embraced Primaris Marines on what if any old Marines do the Primaris still need. (in the sense that they don’t have an equivalent and or still need that role filled)
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#2
Gederas

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They are lacking:

  • Dedicated melee unit (Reivers don't count)
  • Techmarines
  • An actual cheap transport, not the Hovering Bradley (as my friend so succinctly called the Repulsor)
  • Terminator Equivalent
  • Bikers

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#3
War Angel

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They are lacking:

  • Dedicated melee unit (Reivers don't count)
  • Techmarines
  • An actual cheap transport, not the Hovering Bradley (as my friend so succinctly called the Repulsor)
  • Terminator Equivalent
  • Bikers

So do you think aggressors are the equivalent of centurions? I feel like the lack of lascannons makes them not the same.
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#4
Gederas

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They are lacking:

  • Dedicated melee unit (Reivers don't count)
  • Techmarines
  • An actual cheap transport, not the Hovering Bradley (as my friend so succinctly called the Repulsor)
  • Terminator Equivalent
  • Bikers
So do you think aggressors are the equivalent of centurions? I feel like the lack of lascannons makes them not the same.

They're more like baby Centurions, but yes. They're more like Centurions than Terminators, specifically Centurions with Heavy Bolters.

 

The Flamer loadout makes them a bit more unique, but Aggressors are basically mini Centurions.



#5
redmapa

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Melee, strong and deadly melee.


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#6
Canadian_F_H

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Something that adequately fulfils the roles of...

1) melee crusader squads,

2) assault marines and vanguard veterans with jump packs.

3) terminators and assault terminators. preferably just primarisized terminators i guess. Or we can just say that any twrminators may or may not apready be a primaris marine anyways.
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#7
Silas7

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Something that adequately fulfils the roles of...

1) melee crusader squads,

2) assault marines and vanguard veterans with jump packs.

3) terminators and assault terminators. preferably just primarisized terminators i guess. Or we can just say that any twrminators may or may not apready be a primaris marine anyways.

 

Do you have any hopes that Reivers will get new rules to better suit 1) / 2) in the next codex, given that vanguard dropped?


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#8
Gederas

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Something that adequately fulfils the roles of...

1) melee crusader squads,

2) assault marines and vanguard veterans with jump packs.

3) terminators and assault terminators. preferably just primarisized terminators i guess. Or we can just say that any twrminators may or may not apready be a primaris marine anyways.

Do you have any hopes that Reivers will get new rules to better suit 1) / 2) in the next codex, given that vanguard dropped?

I hope so, because as is Reivers are the single-biggest case of "Gameplay & Story Segregation" for Marines. They're described as these spec-ops assassins and killers, elite dudes who go and murder the :cuss out of key targets like a Warboss or Chaos Lord.

 

Gameplay-wise.... They can bully Guardsmen and Ork Boyz. Wow. The things they're SUPPOSED to be able to take on and assassinate would instead curb-stomp them hard.


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#9
MARK0SIAN

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I agree they need melee and terminator equivalents. I also think they need some long range anti-armour. Hellblasters can do the job but they’re not really optimal for taking down armour heavy lists. Primaris need some kind of lascannon equivalent.

#10
sfPanzer

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They are lacking:

  • Dedicated melee unit (Reivers don't count)
  • Techmarines
  • An actual cheap transport, not the Hovering Bradley (as my friend so succinctly called the Repulsor)
  • Terminator Equivalent
  • Bikers

 

 

^ this for the most part

 

Except that they don't "need" an Terminator Equivalent considering that T5 and Sv2+ is in many cases identical (T2 is better against AP0 but both are about equal against overcharged plasma for example) and we already have Aggressors. If it's about the deep striking them we have Inceptors who also have T5. If it's about Assault Terminators then that point is already listed as "dedicated melee unit". If it's about their rank (aka Veterans) then that's a rather weak argument since apart from Indomitus Crusaders Intercessors and the Victrix Guard we simply don't have any Veterans yet and if you play a non-official chapter you can make any unit you want into your chapters Veterans anyway (like I did with my Reivers).

 

Also I want to point out that the Repulsor is far from being a Bradley. One of the biggest issues of the Bradley is that he had basically no armour but appeared like a tank so it would draw all the fire. The Repulsor is more durable than most armies tanks with T8. It just looks like the Bradley because of all the weapons attached to it. ;)

 

 

As for the Bikes ... I agree they are missing, but crunch-wise I don't think they are needed anyway. The only thing Bikes can do better than a unit with FLY is being fast when there's no terrain. They have T5? Great so have Gravis units with Jump Packs like Inceptors. On the other hand Jump Pack units can deep strike and thanks to FLY keep shooting while falling back. Now if they were jetbikes/repulsor bikes, what's the point of Jump Pack units then? An army should have only one type of those imo. Either Bikes (regardless of FLY or not) or Jump Pack infantry. They are just too redundant.


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#11
Red_Shift

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I think the need for terminators is the need, for me at least, for a primaris unit that feels elite. Reivers just don't cut it. All of my primaris guys feel like rank and file with specialisations and the fluff even sets them out that way, with roles interchangeable. I think primaris need an elite, veteran unit, be it a combination of terminators or sword brethren kit as although there is a profile for veteran intercessors I think they need to be visually distinctive.

There is a distinctive lack of melta, I am not sure why.

A dedicated close combat unit - I would favour inceptors with an assault load out personally, mostly because I have seen some great captain smash conversions out there.

Anti tank is being fixed in the near future with the new tank coming out. Similarly, the lack of tech marine.

#12
sfPanzer

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Who needs meltas these days anyway. Lascannons are much better and when you are in Melta range you are also in rapid fire range of Plasma which on average does slightly more damage unless you are in range to use the melta special rule (which barey ever happens due how short ranged it is).

 

Whether the new Repulsor variant fixes the anti-tank issue is completely up in the air. It has a big anti-tank main gun but it looks like it doesn't have the option to take the 4 Lascannons the regular repulsor can take and I doubt the main gun will be better than 4 Lascannons. If it surprisingly can take the 4 Lascannons after all then yes we'll be fine anti-tank wise (and need Meltas even less).


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#13
Closet Skeleton

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Primaris have close combat units, its a fast one they lack. Aggressors and Reivers just need their melee rules re-written.

 

They're also lacking in fast light vehicles, well vehicles in general but the Repulsor is multi-role so its the landspeeder equivalent that isn't covered at all.

 

They have no vanguard veteran equivalent but I don't consider that a core marine unit since it was traditionally blood angels only until 5th ed.

 

Lascannons are only better because melta is over-priced. The -4 on melta is great when there's no invulnerable saves around.

 

Something that adequately fulfils the roles of...

1) melee crusader squads,

 

Veteran intercessors do that fine.


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#14
sfPanzer

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Lascannons are only better because melta is over-priced. The -4 on melta is great when there's no invulnerable saves around.

 

 

The -4 is often just overkill. What makes Lascannons so much better is that it's MUCH easier to make them do anything. Getting Meltas into range takes time and efford. Lascannons just sit there and pew pew away from turn 1 on.


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#15
Leif Bearclaw

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Aggressors aren't melee units. Yes they have power fists, but so did Obliterators until 8th. Their special rules are firepower based, and organisationally/fluff wise they're devastator analogues in Fire Support, not Close Support.

 

What do Primaris need? A whole bunch (plus proper organisational fluff) A proper range of vehicles (so they're not stuck with only 'Land Raider equivalents' with the Repulsors). Veteran units (a stratagem to upgrade Intercessors is a cop out, plain and simple). Multiple melee options (plus making Reivers not trash). Proper devastator analogue (Suppressors come close, but fumble the concept with only 1 weapon option currently, plus jump pack heavy weapons is a dumb idea, there's a reason Scourges were completely redesigned in the 5th ed DE update). Give them all of that, and they start to look like a real range, and a Primaris-only Chapter actually seems viable instead of just a barely half-baked concept that was put into the setting too early, despite most of the detail being a blank space of 'to be filled in later'.

 

More options for sarges and characters would be nice too, as would a redesign of the 'Jump' units, as Inceptors and Suppressors are some of the ugliest units GW have produced in recent years imo.


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#16
MistaGav

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Primaris could really do with another unique vehicle or two rather than just variants of the repulsor. A proper space marine battle and scout tank dedicated to those roles and a proper cheaper, fast transport too. I'm thinking a caladius and pallus RIP off fron the custodes would look cool.

Primaris dont need a straight carbon copy of what we already have otherwise you may as well phase them out. What primaris do is offer something different on the typical battle roles we've already seen.

#17
MARK0SIAN

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Who needs meltas these days anyway. Lascannons are much better and when you are in Melta range you are also in rapid fire range of Plasma which on average does slightly more damage unless you are in range to use the melta special rule (which barey ever happens due how short ranged it is).

Whether the new Repulsor variant fixes the anti-tank issue is completely up in the air. It has a big anti-tank main gun but it looks like it doesn't have the option to take the 4 Lascannons the regular repulsor can take and I doubt the main gun will be better than 4 Lascannons. If it surprisingly can take the 4 Lascannons after all then yes we'll be fine anti-tank wise (and need Meltas even less).


The new Repulsor can’t fix the anti-tank problem as far as I’m concerned for the simple fact that (even if it’s an absolutely brilliant tank killer) it’s too many points. I don’t mean whether or not the Repulsor itself is too many points but that an army like Primaris needs access to ranged anti-tank that doesn’t cost the best part of 300 points.

They need access to ranged anti-tank at a lower points value.
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#18
Sete

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Primaris have close combat units, its a fast one they lack. Aggressors and Reivers just need their melee rules re-written.

They have no vanguard veteran equivalent but I don't consider that a core marine unit since it was traditionally blood angels only until 5th ed.


Something that adequately fulfils the roles of...

1) melee crusader squads,

Veteran intercessors do that fine.
No, nope and absolutely not.

Reivers and agressors are not what people expect of a traditional melee unit. They have their niche, they dont need rewritten rules to take the spot of the melee units some actually want.

You dont consider, but other people do consider them core. There are hundreds of chapters, vanguard veterans arent exclusive to BA and you are limiting DiY chapters.

Veteran Intercessors dont do that just fine. They dont do it at all.

Edited by Sete, 08 June 2019 - 10:53 AM.

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#19
Lord Raven 19

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Maybe Primaris chapter specific units (not just smurfs)
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#20
Reinhard

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More vehicles, cheaper and dedicated to a single role. Both  tanks and transports.

Techmarines, perhaps with a primarized thunderfire cannon.

Dedicated Close combat unit, prefferably with swords.

Flyers anyone? Or do they not nead real flyers because all ground vehicles are repulsors based? Bonus points if they dont end up looking dumb.

 

Oh, and the Emperor's champion. nuff said.


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#21
Burias-Drak'shal

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Close combat equiped primaris and a heavy cc unit 


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#22
Lord Raven 19

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Close combat equiped primaris and a heavy cc unit 

Reivers with thunder hammers


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#23
Volt

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They are lacking:

  • Dedicated melee unit (Reivers don't count)
  • Techmarines
  • An actual cheap transport, not the Hovering Bradley (as my friend so succinctly called the Repulsor)
  • Terminator Equivalent
  • Bikers

 

 

^ this for the most part

 

Except that they don't "need" an Terminator Equivalent considering that T5 and Sv2+ is in many cases identical (T2 is better against AP0 but both are about equal against overcharged plasma for example) and we already have Aggressors. If it's about the deep striking them we have Inceptors who also have T5. If it's about Assault Terminators then that point is already listed as "dedicated melee unit". If it's about their rank (aka Veterans) then that's a rather weak argument since apart from Indomitus Crusaders Intercessors and the Victrix Guard we simply don't have any Veterans yet and if you play a non-official chapter you can make any unit you want into your chapters Veterans anyway (like I did with my Reivers).

 

Also I want to point out that the Repulsor is far from being a Bradley. One of the biggest issues of the Bradley is that he had basically no armour but appeared like a tank so it would draw all the fire. The Repulsor is more durable than most armies tanks with T8. It just looks like the Bradley because of all the weapons attached to it. msn-wink.gif

 

 

As for the Bikes ... I agree they are missing, but crunch-wise I don't think they are needed anyway. The only thing Bikes can do better than a unit with FLY is being fast when there's no terrain. They have T5? Great so have Gravis units with Jump Packs like Inceptors. On the other hand Jump Pack units can deep strike and thanks to FLY keep shooting while falling back. Now if they were jetbikes/repulsor bikes, what's the point of Jump Pack units then? An army should have only one type of those imo. Either Bikes (regardless of FLY or not) or Jump Pack infantry. They are just too redundant.

 

Yeah they need a terminator equivilant. As of now Aggressors are godawful for any real purpose beyond clearing chaff; but then leave you asking why you're using an elite slot to mop up light infantry when you could be bringing something with more punch. What Terminators bring is 3++ or 4++ saves with enough melee power on decent units to really inflict some damage, especially with Deathwing Knights. Ideally Aggressors aren't even getting into melee, ever, because they're just there to mow down chaff with bolt pistols. Especially when Gravis units don't even had an invulnerable save which means they're incredibly easy to remove if in the open (which they are most of the time), and lack any means of delivery. What Primaris needs are just straight copies of Terminators and Sternguard, but better, and with better stats. Then they'd actually be helpful.

 

What Primaris need in general are what I would call PAIN units. Things that bring the pain to the enemy team, either in melee or shooting. As of right now their only real delivery of delicious wounds to the enemy is hellblasters. They're completely unable to make smash captains, suffer from a lack of special weapons overall, and have a very poor selection of elites. They need deepstriking units with meltaguns/lascannons, heavy duty melee units with a 3++ save and 2+ armor, and the ability to just slap chainswords on an entire squad of intercessors bring them up all to 3 attacks each. Oh and actually good HQ's too. The current selection of Primaris HQ's are a farce you only take for the ability to stick in a repulsor I guess? Because otherwise I see no reason why to take a primaris captain until they get smash captain abilities. Open up the armory, hand out jump packs, and start decking out captains with some proper wargear so they can deliver a real punch in the charge.


Edited by Volt, 08 June 2019 - 12:36 PM.

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#24
ShibeKing

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Lascannons and Volkite. All the melee options. Gear choices on captains and lieutenants that aren't so damn strict.

#25
sarabando

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i just like the option to take "primaris" as a upgrade to everything in the current marine codex. Now you can have P. Devistators, P.Assault marines, P.bikers. etc.


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