What’s missing from the Primaris line?

[Marshal Rohr]

Its like Kevlar and Adamatium are two different things with different properties. 

[Panzer]

I think that the next wave of Primaris releases will focus on heavy armour infantry. Someone mentioned earlier that the first wave focused on the standard infantry, and the Vanguard release was built around infiltrators or lightly armoured troops. Both releases had a bit of variation that didn't strictly conform but the theme is there.

 

We can guess, based on this, that the next release will have more elite infantry with a focus on heavy firepower or strong close combat. Hopefully the units will gain some fast moving vehicles or units - not necessarily transports but maybe light tank hunters or bikers.

The first wave focused on nothing particular though. We got flying Gravis, regular Gravis, a Gravis Captain, Phobos, Indomitus Tacticus x2 (Intercessors and Hellblasters) and a bunch of Indomitus characters. If I had to characterise the first wave I'd say it was building the basis and giving us a preview of things to come.

Edited June 19, 2019 by sfPanzer

[Robbienw]

The first wave focused on nothing particular though. We got flying Gravis, regular Gravis, a Gravis Captain, Phobos, Indomitus x2 (Intercessors and Hellblasters) and a bunch of Indomitus characters. If I had to characterise the first wave I'd say it was building the basis and giving us a preview of things to come.

Tacticus x2. Indomitus is terminator armour :)

[Boldthreat]

Agreed with both of you.

 

I think the next major release ala Shadowspear will introduce a Gravis Troop, a Tacticus or Omnis Assault squad (despoiler or Assault squad concept) and a flying bike cavalry unit. We already have a Gravis Captain, maybe an updated one... and a Gravis lt. potentially another character in Gravis or on a bike?

 

That would be my jam.

[Panzer]

 

The first wave focused on nothing particular though. We got flying Gravis, regular Gravis, a Gravis Captain, Phobos, Indomitus x2 (Intercessors and Hellblasters) and a bunch of Indomitus characters. If I had to characterise the first wave I'd say it was building the basis and giving us a preview of things to come.

Tacticus x2. Indomitus is terminator armour

 

 

Ups brainfart on my side. :P

[Dracos]

 

Rant: ;)

I know it's sci-fi and all but this strange obsession I see with "breaching" shields for a squad just rubs me the wrong way. You do realize that an urban combat team using breaching techniques don't really use a shield? One man, a blanket to shield the rest of the team and a well placed explosive. It's entirely unusable as a defensive piece of equipment.

Rant complete

Thank you :)

Blanket? What’s the blanket for?

I can assure you ballistic shields are a thing and do have a use or two in urban combat. Either that or I spent years of my life carrying one for absolutely zero purpose.

Breaching just means making entry into a structure. Using explosives, manual tools or simply just opening a door, it makes no difference. There are pros and cons to each method.

The shield is not there to protect against the explosion of a breaching charge - it’s there to protect the team moving through whatever hole the team is making entry through. If you’re having to move through a fixed entry point, like an airlock for an assault on a ship, then that’s definitely when I’d be considering the use of a ballistic shield at the front of the breach team.

TLDR - breaching shields - a thing.

We might be using different terms for different items. I simply when I saw blanket. It’s a piece of equipment to shield the team from the explosive charge. What you’re referring to I might call a ballistic shield. Which would be useable with a handgun but nothing like a bolt rifle or other two handed weapons.

 

Wouldn’t Storm Shields with Heavy Bolt Pistols and combat blades be more effective? The ballistic shields I’ve seen are for rank and file type infantry. Marines would be giving up the supernatural speed and reflexes using equipment like that. They’d be better off with a round shield or buckled imo. I like the idea I just would like to see it done with a more modern concept than a phalanx of Roman soldiers.

 

I’m not sure I see the point of chainswords for Primaris from a design standpoint. I’d be much more excited if they continued to grow the knife melee rules used by Reivers, Infiltrators, and the new Lt.

Edited June 19, 2019 by Dracos

[Marshal Rohr]

The shield is there so they can get to their enemies and hit them with a chainsword easier. Breachers in the Heresy are very specifically a zone mortalis and urban assault configuration for tactical squads. Edited June 19, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[Panzer]

 

 

Rant:

I know it's sci-fi and all but this strange obsession I see with "breaching" shields for a squad just rubs me the wrong way. You do realize that an urban combat team using breaching techniques don't really use a shield? One man, a blanket to shield the rest of the team and a well placed explosive. It's entirely unusable as a defensive piece of equipment.

Rant complete

Thank you

Blanket? What’s the blanket for?

I can assure you ballistic shields are a thing and do have a use or two in urban combat. Either that or I spent years of my life carrying one for absolutely zero purpose.

Breaching just means making entry into a structure. Using explosives, manual tools or simply just opening a door, it makes no difference. There are pros and cons to each method.

The shield is not there to protect against the explosion of a breaching charge - it’s there to protect the team moving through whatever hole the team is making entry through. If you’re having to move through a fixed entry point, like an airlock for an assault on a ship, then that’s definitely when I’d be considering the use of a ballistic shield at the front of the breach team.

TLDR - breaching shields - a thing.

We might be using different terms for different items. I simply when I saw blanket. It’s a piece of equipment to shield the team from the explosive charge. What you’re referring to I might call a ballistic shield. Which would be useable with a handgun but nothing like a bolt rifle or other two handed weapons.

 

Wouldn’t Storm Shields with Heavy Bolt Pistols and combat blades be more effective? The ballistic shields I’ve seen are for rank and file type infantry. Marines would be giving up the supernatural speed and reflexes using equipment like that. They’d be better off with a round shield or buckled imo. I like the idea I just would like to see it done with a more modern concept than a phalanx of Roman soldiers.

 

I’m not sure I see the point of chainswords for Primaris from a design standpoint. I’d be much more excited if they continued to grow the knife melee rules used by Reivers, Infiltrators, and the new Lt.

 

 

Even with supernatural speed and reflexes shields would be useful. Especially against enemies with the same traits.

 

Also if you think proper shields aren't useful for Marines you might want to take a look at what already exists. ;)

[Orange Knight]

I've kept an eye on this topic because the discussion has been very interesting and I've seen a few complaints crop up repeatedly. Primaris lack close combat, mobility, stratagems, etc

 

Breachers are slow moving infantry with only a mild boost in endurance, and are armed with limited offensive weapons. They aren't the answer to any of the requests to fill the shortcomings of the range outlined by the various comments in this topic.

[Panzer]

Not any of the requests except for the requests for Breachers you mean. ;)

[Orange Knight]

I love how they look, don't misunderstand me. I'd be happy with some hulking Astartes who carried giant shields, and perhaps spears similar in theme to ancient Spartan

[Dracos]

Also if you think proper shields aren't useful for Marines you might want to take a look at what already exists. ;)

I’ve seen those my friend, and while there a great many things I agree with you on or have been swayed by your thoughts ... those might be some of the most horrific Marine models I’ve ever seen. Too big, too bulky, and firing a rifle weapon like that makes me cring. I’m all for the concept but let’s see it modernized and highlighting a Marines speed and ability

 

Full disclosure; I think I’m riding the high off of watching Pt. 4 of the Astartes animation. ;)

Edited June 20, 2019 by Dracos

[Volt]

 

Also if you think proper shields aren't useful for Marines you might want to take a look at what already exists.

I’ve seen those my friend, and while there a great many things I agree with you on or have been swayed by your thoughts ... those might be some of the most horrific Marine models I’ve ever seen. Too big, too bulky, and firing a rifle weapon like that makes me cring. I’m all for the concept but let’s see it modernized and highlighting a Marines speed and ability

 

Full disclosure; I think I’m riding the high off of watching Pt. 4 of the Astartes animation.

 

Except that's how  you aim and fire a rifle using a shield IRL

[Dracos]

Yes ... and as a method used by police officers in a specific situation yeah okay. Not exactly something that translates well to a military environment. Especially for power armored super soldiers ... and the models are still ugly (subjective I know)

 

I’d still be okay with one shield bearer for the squad.

Edited June 20, 2019 by Dracos

[Boldthreat]

This is how I view it. Gravis armor isn’t the assault variant of the Primaris. It’s the anti assault variant. I very much consider it as the culmination of Mark III Iron Armor.

 

We already have two Gravis units, a Fast Attack option and a heavy support choice.

 

The Inceptors can deepstrike,fly, and move 10 inches and are rocking mini heavy Bolters or Plasma Incinerators in each hand. They can drop where needed and shoot the hell out of anything within 18 inches. As Primaris they aren’t slouches in close combat... but only when it’s opportunistic.

 

Aggressors are just as tough as Inceptors. But they are slow. Only moving 5 inches. But they are rocking even more 18 inch goodness. And if they stay still they shoot twice! Anything that gets close deals with 2 power Fists. Oh they can assault... if they can make it there.

 

So what would tie these two units together in the troop slot. I know there is a rumor of heavy infantry with close combat weapons... hinted at things like lightning claws and thunder hammers... but why? We don’t need another 5 inch unit that can’t cross no mans land with T5 and 3+. Heck that would probably be just as expensive as aggressors with none of the range. And aggressors are already swinging power Fists to boot with a Primaris stat line. But imagine a Gravis Breacher Troop. Yes, just as slow as the Aggressor, but with a 18 inch rapid fire version of the Assault Bolter... or it can upgrade that to a Engager shotgun that trades even more range for more damage. It’s shield grants a 6+ Invulnerable save against shooting and a 5+ Invulnerable save in CC. It has Repulsor tech on the shield that makes them more difficult to charge and since it’s Gravis plate, defensive grenade launcher on the backpack mounted rack that can cause blind. And they are still Primaris with 1 extra wound and attack. Three, 3 man squads of these guys being backed up by Aggressors and Inceptors would be a tough position to crack, and make a devestating counter assault group. Bring on Zone Mortalis games in the Dark Imperium!

[Volt]

Yes ... and as a method used by police officers in a specific situation yeah okay. Not exactly something that translates well to a military environment. Especially for power armored super soldiers ... and the models are still ugly (subjective I know)

 

I’d still be okay with one shield bearer for the squad.

The military isn't engaged in firefights in megacities, and it doesn't have shields able to stop rifle rounds.

[Panzer]

This is how I view it. Gravis armor isn’t the assault variant of the Primaris. It’s the anti assault variant. I very much consider it as the culmination of Mark III Iron Armor.

 

We already have two Gravis units, a Fast Attack option and a heavy support choice.

 

The Inceptors can deepstrike,fly, and move 10 inches and are rocking mini heavy Bolters or Plasma Incinerators in each hand. They can drop where needed and shoot the hell out of anything within 18 inches. As Primaris they aren’t slouches in close combat... but only when it’s opportunistic.

 

Aggressors are just as tough as Inceptors. But they are slow. Only moving 5 inches. But they are rocking even more 18 inch goodness. And if they stay still they shoot twice! Anything that gets close deals with 2 power Fists. Oh they can assault... if they can make it there.

 

So what would tie these two units together in the troop slot. I know there is a rumor of heavy infantry with close combat weapons... hinted at things like lightning claws and thunder hammers... but why? We don’t need another 5 inch unit that can’t cross no mans land with T5 and 3+. Heck that would probably be just as expensive as aggressors with none of the range. And aggressors are already swinging power Fists to boot with a Primaris stat line. But imagine a Gravis Breacher Troop. Yes, just as slow as the Aggressor, but with a 18 inch rapid fire version of the Assault Bolter... or it can upgrade that to a Engager shotgun that trades even more range for more damage. It’s shield grants a 6+ Invulnerable save against shooting and a 5+ Invulnerable save in CC. It has Repulsor tech on the shield that makes them more difficult to charge and since it’s Gravis plate, defensive grenade launcher on the backpack mounted rack that can cause blind. And they are still Primaris with 1 extra wound and attack. Three, 3 man squads of these guys being backed up by Aggressors and Inceptors would be a tough position to crack, and make a devestating counter assault group. Bring on Zone Mortalis games in the Dark Imperium!

 

Already existing Gravis units beg to differ.

Aggressors are very much assaulty with their ability to advance&shoot without penalties and their rather short ranged weaponry (only one is 18", the other is 8") and power fists on each model. Inceptors are wearing Jump Packs, have a rather short ranged weapon as well and a special rule that triggers when they charge a target. The Gravis Captain has a master-crafted power sword and a fist and aside of that only a pistol weapon.

 

They all are more of an assault unit than any of the Tacticus armour wearing Marines or any of the Phobos armour wearing Marines sans Reivers with Combat blades.

[Trevak Dal]

Do they really need a melee component? I'm asking for discussion's sake, I think assault marines provide a needed element, and if the Space Marine Crisis Suit guys had lightning claws or powerfists with the plasma cannon/heavy Bolter smgs built in they'd do okay, but it almost seems like the Primaris are just being thrown out piece meal and without overall strategy.

 

1:1 Primaris Bolter Jock vs normal Bolter Jock gets more attacks and an additional wound.

[Closet Skeleton]

 

 

If the game swung towards movement and dynamic play rather than sit there and shoot killhammer then perhaps we'd see more Tactical and Intercessor squads inside transports and again the need for a cheaper transport becomes apparent.

You need to move to win 40k, if your games are shooting matches you're using the wrong kinds of terrain and playing the wrong missions.

 

That's not quite the context I intended. Games of 40K might have models moving around, but it's extreme firepower that wins games and putting Intercessors into the firing line or Tactical Marines will just result in their swift removal from the table.

 

 

Yeah I was at that tournament and the majority of games were won because they were a turkey shoot.

 

I was also at that tournament last weekend and players were tabling their opponents and still losing on points. I lost one game on time (ended as a draw) despite being massively outgunned for the first two turns until I could lock his units in combat and another on dice rolls due to those wandering objectives. The uneven terrain also had a massive effect.

 

Firepower is a way to win games yes but there are loads of play formats that complicate things.

 

 

They must have been in the Codex Astartes as an optional unit that a commander could use depending on their style of command or situation.  Otherwise they wouldn't have been used at all.

 

 

Most chapters don't force field commanders to hold to the codex precisely.

[Robbienw]

I know.  But the provision for a command squad must have been in the Codex Astartes.

Edited June 20, 2019 by Robbienw

[Orange Knight]

The command squad no longer exists in the current rules, but players are free to use the various individual characters to create what is effectively one using the current codex.

[Boldthreat]

I’m ok with buying the individual command squad personnel and grouping or spreading them out as needed. Especially if they are all 5 wounds and worth their points. It makes sense even.

 

But we need more. Company Champions are MIA. We also need a Company Veteran Character then. A bargain LT without the reroll buff. Ideally he would be a way to add an additional power weapon, or master crafted bolt rifle or even a plasma incinerator.

 

My hope was that a proper Command Squad would be the one place we could custome tailer a unit to our style. I’m not lamenting the lack of choices Primaris get at a unit level... I think it’s the right direction. But give me 5 guys that I can have a bit more freedom on. Even if I can’t group them in a proper table top unit.

[Sete]

I see lots of people talking about shields. My dudes, "The Emperor is my shield", just need a big ass sword now!

I agree with Bold, a command squad/veteran unit is needed for Primaris. I think it should even be chapter specific or with chapter specific upgrade sprues.

If people have the basics covered, there will less hate when another unconvencional unit for primaris drop, like primaris german shepards. attack unit.

Edited June 20, 2019 by Sete

[Orange Knight]

But how do they work? We no longer have character units (this is for the best), and unless they are characters they'll be a priority target if we're to assume they provide some command bonuses?

[Sete]

Top of my head, Bodyguard rule, free equipment costumization.

Edited June 20, 2019 by Sete