Chapter creation/s - initial concept

[Kelborn]

Hey there,

 

it has been a while since I sat down and started to get something done. I was kind of distracted and unsure what to do, so I jumped from one idea to the next within days, sometimes even within hours. Quite exhausting, especially when you don't have the time or discipline to write something down.

 

Inspired by Dos' latest thread and Doctor Perils blog featuring his former Shadow Wolves, I said to myself: "Just start already. You don't have to deliver a finished chapter. This place was made to let ideas evolve."

 

Therefore, I'm here now, getting some ideas together and see what will happen.

 

First concept draft / spitballing ideas:

- chapter with unknown origin and founding, oldest records can be traced back after the Scouring happened

- secret origin: loyal Thousand Sons, which became blackshields and fought on the Imperium's side

- two ways of dealing with fleshchange: eight seals (see below) or turn them into a chimearic blackshield force by adding White Scars -> regular battle brothers have WS geneseed, while librarians are either taught in the TS ways or have TS geneseed

- many librarians; strict in handling the warp; use eight seals to shield themselves; break a seal -> more open to the warp, the higher the seal, the higher the risk of loosing control

- librarians under strict control of both, chaplains and apothecaries, overall brothers are strictly screened for any signs of corruption

- shism lead to the division of the chapter

- faction A: giving into their corruption done by Thousand Sons and are accepted as lost brothers

- faction B: goes into hiding, stays loyal and starts a guerilla war against their former brothers and their new masters

- chapter is based within the newly formed Imperium Nihilus

- maybe situated close to the Dominion of Storms

- homeworld faction A: sophisticated world and culture centered around a sun cult (sun as emobidment of the Emperor's light), jungle, fruitful world, home of faction A

- homeworld of faction B: a safe haven for refugees, ancient xenos ruins, which can be used by librarians to shield areas the world in dire need against the warp, hidden deep within a nebula, ravaged, barren world

- faction B librarians more like druids, nature based witchcraft, like Rune Priests / Stormseers

- special weapons: Tonfa like blades / glaives

- faction A: sorcerers, Terminators, heavy weapons / faction B: scouts, stealth and mobile warfare

 

Second concept draft/ drawing/ sorting some new ideas:

 

- chapter with unknown origin and founding, oldest mentioning can be traced back until the Scouring

- secret origin: loyal Thousand Sons, which fought at the side of White Scars, forming a Shattered Legion / Blackshield force

- were adopted as "official" sons of the Khagan and then counted as a successor chapter of the Vth Legion

- many librarians, make use of eight seals to subdue their powers; in combat, those seals are broken in order to gain more power over the warp; the final eight seal is to be broken in the most desperate moments as this will leave the librarians soul nearly open for the neverborn

- chapter is under strict control of both, Chaplains and Apothecaries in order to prevent the outbreak of mutations / corruptions

- the "Curse" of the fleshchange is very rare if not expunged; over time, chapter made use of Scars' geneseed, which was uneffected; teachings of the Thousand Sons prevailed and became an important part of the chapter's philosophy

- a shism leads to the division of the chapter, leaving a loyal and a traitor faction; traitors join Magnus the Red - for now, put the shism and split factions off

- special weapons: Tonfa like blades/ glaives

- comparable archetypes: nature based magic like Rune Priests / Stormseers -> druids instead of the often used shamans?; swift, precise attacks -> rogues/ hunters?; heavy support -> warriors/ paladins?

- homeworld: sophisticated community, forest, fruitful world, yet lethal enough to provide superb candidates; possibly xenos ruins (Aeldari? A former Maiden world?), maybe hidden within a nebula, possible part of the Vraccarian Rift?

 

- Egyptian + Mongol => Chinese culture? A Chinese themed chapter could represent both, the educated TS and the masterful WS. Maybe mix some Warcrafts Pandaren culture to get a more likeable chapter and not a distant and arrogant one.

- Culture of balance and inner peace, yet savageness in combat

- House Dorne of Westeros, liberal, several different "sub-cultures", lethal combatants

- Draw from several cultures and sources to get a divergent, natural result instead of a overthemed chapter

 

-> Read more into Westeros' southern culture and Houses, especially House Dorne and the eastern kingdoms, whose names I currently can't remember.

 

 

Color scheme:

 

- gold, red and black

- earthern toned colors

- OR dark blue with bronze trim/ details

 

Sources of inspiration:

 

- Thousand Sons, White Scars

- A song of ice and fire: House Dorne and the eastern kingdoms

- Warcraft: Pandaren, Elves (Night, Blood, Void)

- possibly Protoss for the factions after the shism

 

 

Tbh, both factions are not set in stone. Their concepts can still be switched, making the traitor faction the dark, sidious one and the loyal faction the golden, honorable one.

 

So why am I even mentioning two factions?

I'd like to start off with the initial chapter as the basement for the later shism / birth of slightly different chapters. Quite a challenge to lay the foundations for two seperate forces (Chaos and a completely different chapter) and keep similarity at the same time.

No pain, no gain.

Edited June 15, 2019 by Kelborn

[Knight of the Raven]

There's a powerful story in this premise.

A Fellowship of Thousand Sons comes to see the value in the teachings of their esteemed brothers, the Stormseers of the White Scars. Perhaps they realize they don't hold all the answers in a surge of humility, maybe it's only cold hard pragmatism, but the result is the same: there is power in restraint.

This puts them at odds with the rest of their Legion, of course. The quest for knowledge is a neverending, spiraling staircase; while you're wasting time with your precious little restraint, everyone else is taking the steps two at a time, laughing at you the whole way up.

This did give the stragglers a very good view of their brothers coming down to earth after their tutelaries accidentally made them trip, though.

The Burning of Propero was a tragedy, in the oldest of ways. Magnus and his sons had dug their own graves and it was time for them to lie in them. This Fellowship, however, had conquered their fatal flaw and were not found wanting.

As such, they fought for the last family they had left: the Emperor, their cousins of the loyalist Legions, their brothers among the Stormseers.

After all was bled and done though, after the Emperor's dream was consigned to oblivion as surely as his body was to the Golden Throne, after the Imperium was scoured clean of the oathbreakers... the lessons of the past were forgotten.

Knowledge is there for the taking and understanding will leave behind those who are too afraid of their own power.

These wayward twins revolve about this very old motivation: "because I can." The difference between them lies in the second half of the sentence: "doesn't mean I should."

TLDR: You can take the Thousand Sons out of Aperture Sorcery, but you can't take Aperture Sorcery out of the Thousand Sons.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

IIRC, Magnus and the Khan were friends pre-Heresy, with the latter speaking in favor of his brother at the Council of Nikaea. I can see the White Scars accepting Thousand Sons loyalists into their ranks, so their friends won't be punished for crimes they didn't commit. The use of chimeric gene-seed can be explained as the Thousand Sons remaining with the White Scars successors after Guilliman ordered the Legions separated into Chapters; the Successor Chapter collecting the Thousand Sons loyalists' gene-seed when the latter inevitably fall in battle, out of respect for their loyalty; and as the millennia pass, the White Scars successors UNintentionally creating "halfbreeds" using the Thousand Sons loyalists' gene-seed, as they were buried as White Scars heroes instead of a traitor's (Magnus') sons.

 

The flesh-changes are best concealed via cosmetic surgery (what the Exorcists use), amputation of mutated limbs and their replacement with augmetics.

[Kelborn]

Thank you for your input, guys. Appreciate it! :)

 

I've updated the first post, adding some new thoughts regarding culture, inspirations and such.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Were I the loyalist leader, I'd swallow my pride and approach other White Scars successor for aid, admitting some of my former brothers turned traitor and we're now fighting a Chapter war. This is so my faction doesn't get blamed for crimes the traitors committed, and we don't become victims of mistaken identity. The loyalists will suffer injuries to their reputation- the Ordo Astartes will have to be informed, likely resulting in restrictions to our autonomy for millennia- but those consequences are mere inconveniences compared to what the Soul Drinkers went through. We may avoid some of the restrictions if we convince the Inquisition the traitors are Alpha Legion imposters, though.

 

As for how the Chapter should look, Curse of the Golden Flower and House of Flying Daggers are good sources of inspiration if you want the Chapter to look Chinese. Both films also deal with intrigue a Tzeentch worshiper will want to comment on.

[Messor]

I really like this concept, particularly the influence of the 1kSons origins on the chapter's teachings and librarians. The promise of evolving into a couple of distinct groups is also very compelling. Had any luck building livery and heraldry?

[Hasoroth]

 chapter with unknown origin and founding, oldest mentioning can be traced back until the Scouring

 

 

Is the origin unknown to the Chapter itself? If they do know, are they actively covering up knowledge of their origins? 

 

 loyal Thousand Sons, which fought at the side of White Scars, forming a Shattered Legion / Blackshield force

 

 

I'm not as up to date on Heresy-era lore as I'd like, but I think there were wider implications to Thousand Son's geneseed as a result of the Burning of Prospero, and the Rubric. Arvida suffered from the flesh change during his time with the White Scars, and was only saved by merging with the Janus shard. I believe that by the fluff as written, all of those Thousand Sons would probably have mutated into spawn, or dusted/empowered by the Rubric of Ahriman.

 

 were adopted as "official" sons of the Khagan and then counted as a successor chapter of the Vth Legion

 

 

I'm generally wary of any Chapter's lore that involves being directly involved with important and famous characters. When you say they were adopted by the Khagan do you mean Jaghatai himself met with and adopted these guys? Or was it done on the fringes of the galaxy by a friendly Khan who had worked with the Thousand Son's before. Maybe the Chapter believes they were formally inducted by Jaghatai himself? It also all ties into how aware the Chapter is of their own origins.

 

many librarians, make use of eight seals to subdue their powers; in combat, those seals are broken in order to gain more power over the warp; the final eight seal is to be broken in the most desperate moments as this will leave the librarians soul nearly open for the neverborn

 

 

This is cool. Do you have names for each of the eight seals? Are these seals actual physical objects? Or are they more metaphysical concepts of control?

 

 chapter is under strict control of both, Chaplains and Apothecaries in order to prevent the outbreak of mutations / corruptions

 

 

Just to underline my first point, probably the most important part of figuring out your Chapter is to what extent are they aware of their origins. A Chapter that knows it has a traitorous geneline, and constantly has to fight against Warp induced mutation is very different from a Chapter that once had to deal with mutations, but adopted more stable geneseed and have kept up their purity as a tradition.

 

the "Curse" of the fleshchange is very rare if not expunged; over time, chapter made use of Scars' geneseed, which was uneffected; teachings of the Thousand Sons prevailed and became an important part of the chapter's philosophy

 

 

To what extent is the modern Chapter comprised of White Scars geneseed versus Thousand Sons?

 

---

 

 

 

Here is my suggestion for how to narrow down aspects of your Chapter's backstory.

 

A Heresy-era White Scars fleet on the edge of the galaxy worked closely with members of the Thousand Sons, becoming closely intertwined. When the Heresy struck this group was far away, and their first instinct that something was wrong was when the Thousand Sons element started falling to the flesh change.

 

Isolated, the Scars did what they could to help and when their brothers fell to the flesh change they endeavored to adopt and continue some of their traditions. Eventually this group of White Scars would return to the Imperium, fight in the Heresy, and be turned into a Chapter after the Codex was implemented.

 

This gives you some narrative options into how much of a blend of White Scars versus Thousand Sons you want while avoiding any sticky questions about "well, how come these guys aren't a bunch of raving mutants?". It also opens up possibilities for the schism: maybe those original White Scars turned into two divided camps with one wanting to help the Thousand Sons and one wanting to mercy-kill them for their mutations. Maybe the former group escaped with some Thousand Sons survivors and formed a Chaos war band with a millennia long grudge. Maybe it was the other way around, maybe no one remembers which group was on which side.

 

 

[Bjorn Firewalker]

 

many librarians, make use of eight seals to subdue their powers; in combat, those seals are broken in order to gain more power over the warp; the final eight seal is to be broken in the most desperate moments as this will leave the librarians soul nearly open for the neverborn

 

This is cool. Do you have names for each of the eight seals? Are these seals actual physical objects? Or are they more metaphysical concepts of control?

Good point. Suggestion: Name the Eight Seals after the Bagua from Taoist beliefs. The Eight Seals can be physically represented as an octagonal collar around a Librarian's neck- not a symbol for "metaphysical concepts of control," but a Geiger counter-like device that warns the Librarian and nearby allies how much energy he's drawing from the Warp.

[Kelborn]

Thank you for your feedback and ideas, guys.

 

Please don't assume that I lost interest. It's more that I can't find the time to answer appropiatly.

 

What I can quickly say is that I'll consider your thoughts. Yes, the seals were originaly meant in a metaphysical way (Guy of Naruto inspired me). Thus, the Bagua seem to be a decent source.

 

Right now, I'm kind of torn between making it a Chinese-ish (not fully Chinese as I'm not that familiar with the culture, etc. to do it the justice it deserves) and a reclusive Dark Templar-ish one.

Think that I'm using the Chinese / Pandaren (say what you want about them, but their culture and Mists of Pandaria was a masterpiece of lore, imho) chapter as the loyalist part and the secretive factions as a renegade or traitor spin off. Or use the latter as a specialized librarian faction. Some kind of Demon Hunter-ish loners. Let's see.

 

Right now, I'm gonna take your strain of thoughts and think about them before delivering the next update. I'm still thinking that House Dorne of Westeros might be another decent source to work with but I have to read World of Westeros before I can decide upon that.

 

Cheers

Kel

[Hasoroth]

Thank you for your feedback and ideas, guys.

 

Please don't assume that I lost interest. It's more that I can't find the time to answer appropiatly.

 

What I can quickly say is that I'll consider your thoughts. Yes, the seals were originaly meant in a metaphysical way (Guy of Naruto inspired me). Thus, the Bagua seem to be a decent source.

 

Right now, I'm kind of torn between making it a Chinese-ish (not fully Chinese as I'm not that familiar with the culture, etc. to do it the justice it deserves) and a reclusive Dark Templar-ish one.

Think that I'm using the Chinese / Pandaren (say what you want about them, but their culture and Mists of Pandaria was a masterpiece of lore, imho) chapter as the loyalist part and the secretive factions as a renegade or traitor spin off. Or use the latter as a specialized librarian faction. Some kind of Demon Hunter-ish loners. Let's see.

 

Right now, I'm gonna take your strain of thoughts and think about them before delivering the next update. I'm still thinking that House Dorne of Westeros might be another decent source to work with but I have to read World of Westeros before I can decide upon that.

 

Cheers

Kel

 

Dorne's an interesting choice - but I don't see any obvious meshing between a Moorish/Spanish culture with the Chinese/Fantasy Asian cultures you've previously mentioned. For what it's worth you might want to look into some of the more magical cultures of Planetos (Asshai, Qarth, Yi Ti etc).

[Brother Lunkhead]

Nice work Brother Kel I really like the idea of a loyalist Thousand Sons successor chapter, but that rabid mutation problem and Ahriman's tragic Rubric solutions are very challenging barriers to overcome. Here's my lame solution to the problem

 

While attempting to adjust the gene-seed and arrest the mutation problem, Magnus creates a mutation that gives some of his sons a null characteristic or eliminates their psychic abilities in some instances. Rather than destroy them and to ensure that the bulk of his legion is not disrupted by these altered sons, Magnus "exiles" them to far away missions. This effectively isolates them from the Legion and saves them ultimately from corruption, Russ' wrath, and Ahriman's Rubric.

 

…… just an idea

[Allart01]

I think Dorne would be a nice concept to work with, and links well with a White Scars heritage as far as world view/philosophy goes. The World of Ice and Fire book would be a great source for inspiration, I'd definitely recommend it. I think you can shift the balance between "moorish/spanish/desert", chinese and "mongols fom the steppe" as needed to find a nice spot resulting in something different from all of the above, a nice blend of suggestions if you will.

[Brother Cambrius]

This is certainly another interesting and unique spin to share and develop in the Liber, kudos to you Kelborn. :)

 

Now a Thousand Sons successor, without making them Blood Ravens is a challenge as whichever way you would cut it, both would have the desire for knowledge and such, but uniquely, yours is aware of its origins as opposed to the rumours and perpetual hunt the Ravens endure.

 

Merging with the White Scars in and of itself is a difficult one to build and have it balance well within the established HH canon, but the idea of them becoming Blackshields and going incognito possibly with their White Scar cousins during the Heresy and then the Scouring (if Ahriman;s Rubric and the flesh change hadn't caused much issue, this could be an interesting point of writing on how they control the Flesh Change with unique seals etc alongside the Librarians' 8 seals of control/power). Also, what happens when they come across their Chaotic brethren? I would expect there to be a lot of hush hush action if they started spouting taunts and declarations of the loyalists being their kindred.

 

In terms of the Dorne personality mixed with Chinese heritage, I could see the chapter having the outlook and personality of being fiercely independent and untrusting of many unless well and truly proven to be an ally, which considering their lineage and secrets would be very apt. Atop this, add in the White Scars' more aggressive and love of the hunt with fast attacks, that would certainly tie in with the Dorne-ian culture and combat styles from what I saw in the show, speed and skill with a bit of poison (or in this case, psyker abilities) to defeat an enemy.

 

Looking forwards to more Kel!

 

Cambrius

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Also, what happens when they come across their Chaotic brethren? I would expect there to be a lot of hush hush action if they started spouting taunts and declarations of the loyalists being their kindred.

The Thousand Sons' claims will likely be met with the same reaction you'd have if I claimed you were Adolf Hitler's son, and should join your "honored ancestor" in committing Crimes Against Humanity: With disbelief at the sheer absurdity of this unverifiable claim, outrage at this insult against your REAL ancestors (none of whom are actually Adolf Hitler, or have as negative a reputation), and a (likely violent) desire to avenge this insult.

Edited August 11, 2019 by Bjorn Firewalker

[Kelborn]

Again, thank you for your feedback, brothers.

 

I owe you an answer/ update!

 

There are quite a lot of great thoughts and ideas, know that I've all taken into consideration und put them into my respective word doc in order to work with them.

 

It has been a while since I last posted something and that has partially to do with a lot of rethinking and considering certain parts of the chapters concept. I don't want to disappoint anyone or let their feedback be for no avail, but overall I've made up my mind and came up with some new, more fitting ideas.

 

For example, I recently started to really get into the Age of Sigmar. I even bought the Stormcasts Battletome and gathered some stories of Guymer and Reynolds (which I can only recommend if you want to start with AoS) to get an understanding for them. Why's that?

 

We got two chapters, the esoteric Thousand Sons and the savage, yet noble and cultivated White Scars. My previous idea was to dive into either Chinese or Dornian culture and to mix them together. This was quite promising, especially as I've already started to work on a Chinese themed Primaris successor chapter of the White Scars. Unfortunately, I concluded that I don't have either the needed knowledge or the interest to dive into a completey "unknown" culture, history, etc. It would have ended in a Pandaren 2.0 made Warhammer ish thing.

 

I don't want that.

 

Instead, I believe that the Stormcast Eternals are a good way of handling to quite different Legions and their unique cultures, etc. and form them into something new.

The Thousand Sons favor arcane arts, studying the starts, gathering wisdom, enacting ancient rituals and such. They lean heavily on their psionic powers.

The White Scars are more restricted, they enjoy live, still they look into "regular" art forms like poetry, they are naturally born hunters, yet they still have their connection to the elements, though very disciplined.

 

Now have a look on Stormcast Eternals: warriors made by Sigmar, have a great focus on storm powers and celestial themes. The Atral Templars are basically Space Wolves / White Scars turned into Stormcasts. On can draw several  parallels between certain Legions and Stormhosts. Like the Thousand Sons, they gather knowledge in order to defeat their enemies. Like the Scars, some of them emphasize lightning strikes. So why not making use of them as a basement to work upon?

 

From those "greater" Stormhosts, the Astral Templars and especially the Celestial Warbringers are very to close to how I see this overall concept.

 

So now I've got a basement to work upon. How about a historical, reallife culture?

 

Although China has a rich history of war, martial arts, discipline and a sophisticated culture, something else drew my attention: the ancient cultures of middle and south America.

 

I know that the 4chan community once created an Aztec themed chapter, the Blood Jaguars. That's not what I'm looking for. Too bloodthirsty, too savage.

The Mayan culture in comparison is something more fitting. Sophisticated, yet "savage", focusing on stelar events, etc. Sounds familiar, right?

 

What we've got thus far?

Stormcast Eternal-ish chapter descending from a Thousand Sons blackshield force with White Scars allies. Their homeworld and overall culture being that of ancient Maya.

 

But we haven't touched upon geneseed and the fleshchange, eh?

 

Using Thousand Sons' geneseed is extremely difficult for two reasons: the fleshchange and Ahrimans Rubicon

We (or at least I) don't know yet, how far the Rubicon stretched and if it had any consequences on those Thousand Sons hanging in the mortal universe or having not joined Magnus again. Were they affected? If so, in the same way as the "traitor" Sons? Do we have loyal Rubric Marines? Is their fleshchange surpressed? Were they not affected? Do they suffer even worse from the fleshchange?

 

I'm trying to get around this by doing the following:

Due to the instability of their geneseed did the loyal Thousand Sons decide that they'd be teachers and mentors for the coming generations, making White Scars geneseed the main source. With the help of their allied Stormseers were the eight seals created and installed to prevent any future corruption and to restrict their own usage of the great ocean. In time, those few remaining Sons would die, their geneseed locked away. Their teachings though endured, being used for the generations to come. That would make this chapter a White Scars successor when looking at their geneseed. From a cultural, philosophical pov they are a mixture of both Chogoris and Prospero, taking roots in their new Maya themed homeworld.

 

Last but not least: Name and color scheme

I always had the name of Arcane Blades for a Thousand Sons splinter force at hand. Think that this one would fit this concept.

 

Further, here are two color schemes I came up with. I used purple as a mixture of the two incarnations of the XVth Legion red and blue.

 

 

Here's a possible chapter symbol, as well. It's from Warcraft and is the Kirin Tors symbol (an elite cast of mages)

 

 

What do you think?

Edited August 11, 2019 by Kelborn

[Bjorn Firewalker]

The purple armor, white Aquila and pauldrons, is a good look. Purple armor and pauldrons, bronze Aquila and highlights, looks regal, and best reserved for the Chapter's elites.

 

As for a Chapter symbol, how about using an eye over a sword's guard? (See this image of Stormbringer, from Michael Moorcock's stories, for reference.)

[Brother Lunkhead]

Your armor livery schemes both look good I like Brother Bjorn's observations.... definitely worth considering.

 

Relying on White Scars gene-seed to perpetuate your marines and relegating the Thousand Sons as mentors and teachers to perpetuate the chapter legacy looks like a good way to go.

 

I'm familiar with the Blood Jaguars. Very good Aztec themed story, but very bloody indeed. A Mayan cultural theme just might be a way to go. But, have you considered Tibetan culture? Magical, astral charting, meditating, martial monks?... and Yetis

 

Thousand Sons loyalist chapter is a difficult project given all that's going against them. It's almost as though they were designed to be loyalist tamper proof. You've come a long way in unraveling this problem. All looks very promising and I'm looking forward to your final product

[Bjorn Firewalker]

But, have you considered Tibetan culture? Magical, astral charting, meditating, martial monks?... and Yetis

It's so refreshing to see an original idea- something rarely seen in 2019, when Disney and its ilk continuously deface their own works as "remakes" and "reboots," while falsely accusing all who point out this fact of being "Nazis" and "regressive."

 

I personally favor Tibetan Marines over another Aztec/Mayan Chapter- personally, I'm having trouble seeing how to make the latter something OTHER THAN a ripoff of 4chan's Blood Jaguars- or YET ANOTHER Greco-Roman inspired Ultramarines descendant.

Edited August 11, 2019 by Bjorn Firewalker

[Kelborn]

Tibetan, hm? Haven't thought of them. Quite a niche Like my Hawaiian themed chapter. Gonna have a look on it, thanks. :)

 

Color scheme seems to be decent, what about the name? :)

 

And I like the combination idea of sword and eye! :tu:

Edited August 11, 2019 by Kelborn

[Brother Lunkhead]

Chapter symbol.... eye and sword

 

 

 

But, have you considered Tibetan culture? Magical, astral charting, meditating, martial monks?... and Yetis

It's so refreshing to see an original idea- something rarely seen in 2019, when Disney and its ilk continuously deface their own works as "remakes" and "reboots," while laying falsely accusing all who point out this fact of being "Nazis" and "regressive."

I personally favor Tibetan Marines over another Aztec/Mayan Chapter- personally, I'm having trouble seeing how to make the latter something OTHER THAN a ripoff of 4chan's Blood Jaguars- or YET ANOTHER Greco-Roman inspired Ultramarines descendant.

 

 

….. waiteaminute there..... I'm a Greco-Roman inspired Ultramarine descendant