Fallen Angels: good for collection versatility?

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

The best thing about Fallen is that they have both IMPERIUM and CHAOS keywords, meaning they can be taken as allied detachments for both. If one had a small collection of Fallen (say, Cypher and three maximum-size squads of Fallen) one could run said Fallen as a separate detachment for any Imperium or Chaos army one has. I'm considering picking up some Fallen myself. Thoughts?

[Gederas]

I've seen people making Fallen using the new Chaos Marines kit and the Dark Angels Company Veterans kit. Some of the results are pretty nice.

 

Ironically, I was looking at making Fallen to bring some shenanigans for my Dark Angels. Prisoners pulled out of the jail to do a mission and all that.

 

Mainly because I can get Death Hex in an Imperium Army, and that's hilariously good at dealing with Knights :lol:

[Angel of Solitude]

Sadly, they updated it so that if you take the Fallen Angels detachment (which you need to do to unlock Fallen Sorcerors and Rhinos), then you lose the IMPERIUM keyword. Thus no Death Hex in an Imperium army, and likewise, no assassins in a Chaos army...

 

Your minimum-sized Fallen detachment will be a Vanguard, with Cypher and 3x5 man Fallen units. The entire unit can take combi-bolters, and when you combine Bolter Discipline with a natural re-roll 1's to hit if not moving, then they make a nice back line unit. Cypher also offers re-roll 1's to hit if you want your squad to be on the move...at which point you may contemplate an all combi-plasma squad for some serious hitting power. This set-up is both IMPERIUM and CHAOS friendly.

 

If you go with the Fallen Angels detachment, then you get sorcerors and Rhinos. This makes your Fallen a bit more mobile, to the extent that I'm contemplating a 2 Rhinos, a sorceror, Cypher and 10xcombi-plasmas as a rather silly anti-heavy armour detachment.

 

However, the main problem that I have with the Fallen detachment is...other things do the same, but better. Take the Imperium version: Dark Angels offer the same natural re-roll 1's to hit if you don't move, but have natural access to Rhinos and a base Master comes in slightly cheaper as a HQ choice. More importantly, DA get the Weapons of the Dark Ages strategem, which gives +1D to your plasma gun shots. Certainly better than a Fallen detachment.

 

From a Chaos perspective, I am sure that there would be more efficient ways to achieve the same results - titan slayer, backfield support - in a more efficient way.

 

I've invested in a Fallen detachment because of the fluff. And because I think it would be fun. And because I know there is another DA player at my local games club. Competitively? I'd choose some other options.

[Gederas]

Sadly, they updated it so that if you take the Fallen Angels detachment (which you need to do to unlock Fallen Sorcerors and Rhinos), then you lose the IMPERIUM keyword. Thus no Death Hex in an Imperium army, and likewise, no assassins in a Chaos army...

 

Your minimum-sized Fallen detachment will be a Vanguard, with Cypher and 3x5 man Fallen units. The entire unit can take combi-bolters, and when you combine Bolter Discipline with a natural re-roll 1's to hit if not moving, then they make a nice back line unit. Cypher also offers re-roll 1's to hit if you want your squad to be on the move...at which point you may contemplate an all combi-plasma squad for some serious hitting power. This set-up is both IMPERIUM and CHAOS friendly.

 

If you go with the Fallen Angels detachment, then you get sorcerors and Rhinos. This makes your Fallen a bit more mobile, to the extent that I'm contemplating a 2 Rhinos, a sorceror, Cypher and 10xcombi-plasmas as a rather silly anti-heavy armour detachment.

 

However, the main problem that I have with the Fallen detachment is...other things do the same, but better. Take the Imperium version: Dark Angels offer the same natural re-roll 1's to hit if you don't move, but have natural access to Rhinos and a base Master comes in slightly cheaper as a HQ choice. More importantly, DA get the Weapons of the Dark Ages strategem, which gives +1D to your plasma gun shots. Certainly better than a Fallen detachment.

 

From a Chaos perspective, I am sure that there would be more efficient ways to achieve the same results - titan slayer, backfield support - in a more efficient way.

 

I've invested in a Fallen detachment because of the fluff. And because I think it would be fun. And because I know there is another DA player at my local games club. Competitively? I'd choose some other options.

You misread the detachment's unlock stratagem.

 

The Sorcerers and Chaos Rhino lose the <MARK OF CHAOS>, HERETIC ASTARTES and <LEGION> keywords and replace them with the FALLEN and IMPERIUM keywords.

 

You can get Death Hex in an Imperium Army with this.

 

Hell, you can SUMMON DAEMONS in an Imperium Army because of this (well, until they errata that a FALLEN Chaos Sorcerer can't use Daemonic Ritual, because it can do exactly that right now).

Edited June 21, 2019 by Gederas

[Angel of Solitude]

As fun as it would be to have some Pink Horrors running around alongside loyal servants of the Imperium, Games Workshop thought this was probably not the best idea and so errata’d the Vigilus Ablaze supplement:

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/warhammer_40000_imperium_nihilus_vigilus_ablaze_en.pdf

 

The errata is as follows:

 

Page 186 – Fallen Angels, Fallen Angels Stratagem Change the third sentence to read:

‘If you do so, they replace their <Mark of Chaos>, Heretic Astartes and <Legion> keywords with the Fallen keyword.’

 

Change the final sentence to read:

‘Fallen units in that Detachment gain the Fallen Angels keyword, but they lose the Imperium Faction keyword (if they have it).’

 

So, Heretic Astartes Sorcerors do not gain the IMPERIUM keyword, and Fallen units lose the IMPERIUM keyword if you use the Fallen Angels specialist detachment. Therefore, despite how much fun it would be, no Chaos sorcerors/daemon summoning in an Imperium army.

[Gederas]

... Well that detachment is now completely POINTLESS to me. Joy

 

They could have just as easily errata'd it so the Sorcerer can't summon Daemons either. But noooo, now you can't have fun with that detachment with your Imperium army.

Edited June 21, 2019 by Gederas

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

Awwww. I was going to start research into boosting summoning to where I can field Mortarion, Magnus and Guilliman all on the field at once.

[Panzer]

Awwww. I was going to start research into boosting summoning to where I can field Mortarion, Magnus and Guilliman all on the field at once.

^ probably one of the reasons why they explicitly made it not work lol

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

Probably. Still would have been fun. Just for lulz, though, if they hadn't errata'd it to where you can't field Sorcerers with Imperium, would it actually be possible to, using only boosts from the Fallen Angels detachment and Imperium sources, summon a Daemon Primarch? Note that the rules do say you can summon any Daemon whose <MARK OF CHAOS> matches yours, and therefore you can theoretically summon Daemon Primarchs with buffs.

[Closet Skeleton]

Probably. Still would have been fun. Just for lulz, though, if they hadn't errata'd it to where you can't field Sorcerers with Imperium, would it actually be possible to, using only boosts from the Fallen Angels detachment and Imperium sources, summon a Daemon Primarch? Note that the rules do say you can summon any Daemon whose <MARK OF CHAOS> matches yours, and therefore you can theoretically summon Daemon Primarchs with buffs.

 

No, you can only summon daemons with the daemonic ritual rule which excludes heretic astartes units. You can also only roll up to three dice unless you use stratagems accessible only to thousand sons, word bearers or death guard and daemon primarchs are more than 18 power.

Edited June 21, 2019 by Closet Skeleton

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

Just looked at the Daemonic Ritual rule. As far as I can tell, it does not, in fact, exclude HERETIC ASTARTES DAEMONS; as long as the DAEMON in question has a KHORNE, SLAANESH, TZEENTCH or NURGLE keyword, which the Daemon Primarchs do, you can summon it. No Daemonhosts or Avatars of Khaine, but (in theory) the Daemon Primarchs are fair play. Although, to be fair, I'm looking at the old Chaos Space Marines codex (first version of 8th ed) so it might have changed in that time.

[Panzer]

Just looked at the Daemonic Ritual rule. As far as I can tell, it does not, in fact, exclude HERETIC ASTARTES DAEMONS; as long as the DAEMON in question has a KHORNE, SLAANESH, TZEENTCH or NURGLE keyword, which the Daemon Primarchs do, you can summon it. No Daemonhosts or Avatars of Khaine, but (in theory) the Daemon Primarchs are fair play. Although, to be fair, I'm looking at the old Chaos Space Marines codex (first version of 8th ed) so it might have changed in that time.

 

Then you have to take another look because Daemonic Ritual is a special rule you can find only on Codex: Daemon unit datasheets.

 

 

 

Roll up to 3 dice – this is your summoning

roll. You can summon one new unit

with the Daemonic Ritual ability to the

battlefield that has a Power Rating equal to

or less than the total result so [...]

[Darnok]

Yeah, you can not summon any of the Daemon Primarchs. And you can (no longer) summon daemons with Fallen.

 

You do not play Fallen for gameplay advantages. Everything they can do, other imperial units can do as well (or better) - with added faction synergies. The one exception is the Death Hex power...

 

You can use Fallen to solid effect in a themed force. Three squads of special weapon wielding, power armoured dudes with support from a sorceror and Cypher can surely add something to Imperial Guard or Adeptus Mechanicus. In terms of raw effectiveness you will find better alternatives with Space Marines of other favours though.

 

None of that changes the fact that Fallen are a very cool modelling and painting project. They can add a lot in terms of theme and variety, so give them a try

[Gederas]

Yeah, you can not summon any of the Daemon Primarchs. And you can (no longer) summon daemons with Fallen.

 

You do not play Fallen for gameplay advantages. Everything they can do, other imperial units can do as well (or better) - with added faction synergies. The one exception is the Death Hex power...

 

You can use Fallen to solid effect in a themed force. Three squads of special weapon wielding, power armoured dudes with support from a sorceror and Cypher can surely add something to Imperial Guard or Adeptus Mechanicus. In terms of raw effectiveness you will find better alternatives with Space Marines of other favours though.

 

None of that changes the fact that Fallen are a very cool modelling and painting project. They can add a lot in terms of theme and variety, so give them a try

Except, due to the Errata, you CAN'T ally that Detachment in, unless I'm reading something wrong.

 

Because when you use the Stratagem, everything in there loses the IMPERIUM keyword. Which means the army is no longer battle-forged as anything in the Fallen Angels detachment ONLY has FALLEN as its Faction keyword.

[Darnok]

Yeah, you can not summon any of the Daemon Primarchs. And you can (no longer) summon daemons with Fallen.

 

You do not play Fallen for gameplay advantages. Everything they can do, other imperial units can do as well (or better) - with added faction synergies. The one exception is the Death Hex power...

 

You can use Fallen to solid effect in a themed force. Three squads of special weapon wielding, power armoured dudes with support from a sorceror and Cypher can surely add something to Imperial Guard or Adeptus Mechanicus. In terms of raw effectiveness you will find better alternatives with Space Marines of other favours though.

 

None of that changes the fact that Fallen are a very cool modelling and painting project. They can add a lot in terms of theme and variety, so give them a try

Except, due to the Errata, you CAN'T ally that Detachment in, unless I'm reading something wrong.

 

Because when you use the Stratagem, everything in there loses the IMPERIUM keyword. Which means the army is no longer battle-forged as anything in the Fallen Angels detachment ONLY has FALLEN as its Faction keyword.

Damn, you are of course right.

 

You can still do a Vanguard detachment with Cypher and Fallen though. No Rhino, no Sorcerer, but still Cypher and special weapon shenanigans.

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

 

Yeah, you can not summon any of the Daemon Primarchs. And you can (no longer) summon daemons with Fallen.

 

You do not play Fallen for gameplay advantages. Everything they can do, other imperial units can do as well (or better) - with added faction synergies. The one exception is the Death Hex power...

 

You can use Fallen to solid effect in a themed force. Three squads of special weapon wielding, power armoured dudes with support from a sorceror and Cypher can surely add something to Imperial Guard or Adeptus Mechanicus. In terms of raw effectiveness you will find better alternatives with Space Marines of other favours though.

 

None of that changes the fact that Fallen are a very cool modelling and painting project. They can add a lot in terms of theme and variety, so give them a try

Except, due to the Errata, you CAN'T ally that Detachment in, unless I'm reading something wrong.

 

Because when you use the Stratagem, everything in there loses the IMPERIUM keyword. Which means the army is no longer battle-forged as anything in the Fallen Angels detachment ONLY has FALLEN as its Faction keyword.

Damn, you are of course right.

 

You can still do a Vanguard detachment with Cypher and Fallen though. No Rhino, no Sorcerer, but still Cypher and special weapon shenanigans.

 

Welp. GeeDubs missing opportunities again. As it stands, if you take a FALLEN detachment and ally it with Imperium, it's 16-31 models, no deviation, right? And you basically get to take Dark Angels Veterans with a special ability?

[Darnok]

As it stands, if you take a FALLEN detachment and ally it with Imperium, it's 16-31 models, no deviation, right? And you basically get to take Dark Angels Veterans with a special ability?

16 to 61 actually, as you can take up to six Elite choices. Fallen are similar to DA Company Veterans, but not at all identical.

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

Rule of three, though. No more than three of the same datasheet, meaning in a FALLEN detachment - something that only has two datasheets total, one of which is a special character HQ - you can, in fact, only take up to 31 models.

[Panzer]

Rule of three is not an actual rule. It's a suggestion for tournaments/events. So you can use more than three units of the same just fine in your usual games with friends and random people.

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

Oh. I had no idea. I genuinely thought rule of three was mandatory for matched play.

[Gederas]

Oh. I had no idea. I genuinely thought rule of three was mandatory for matched play.

Nope, as sfPanzer said, it's actually just a recommendation for tournament play. So it's not even a rule, people just call it that because "Rule of Three" sounds cooler than "Games Workshop's Recommendation of Three for Tournaments". :lol:

 

Most people tend to abide by it because.... Reasons?

[Panzer]

And to be even more correct, it's not even "of three" if you don't play games in a 1001-2000 points range. 

 

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

If that's the case, then I might consider building a 1k-category Fallen army as follows:

 

= FALLEN Vanguard Detachment, 1000 pts. category =

= HQ =

Cypher (80 pts.)

 

= ELITES =

Fallen x10 w/Combi-bolter x5, Boltgun x5: 136 pts.

Fallen x10 w/Combi-plasma x5, Boltgun x5: 195 pts.

Fallen x10 w/Combi-melta x5, Boltgun x5: 215 pts.

Fallen x10 w/Combi-flamer x5, Boltgun x5: 180 pts.

Fallen x5 w/Lightning Claws (pair) x5: 186 pts.

 

= 992 pts. in total =

[Lord Raven 19]

Oh, my poor wallet