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2k Black Legion/Questor Traitoris

Lysimachus

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11 replies to this topic

#1
Lysimachus

Lysimachus

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Hey all,

So, trying to come up with a list to work towards for my Black Hammers Renegades. In fluff, these guys are very, very old traitors, one of the first (or perhaps even the first!) renegade Chapters after the 2nd Founding, but they're not dedicated to any of the big 4, so Black Legion seemed an obvious fit rules-wise. They don't use lots of daemonic stuff, so the focus of the list is more on standard Marines (although I do want to include a contingent of traitor Knights too!)

List isn't intended to be super optimised for tournament play, but still reasonably capable for friendly play.



Black Hammers (Black Legion)/Questor Traitoris 2,000 pts

Battle Forged (+3CP)

Detachment 1
Black Legion Outrider Detachment
(+1CP)
Host Raptorial (-1CP)

Chaos Lord with Jump Pack 93
WT - The Tip of the Claw
Relic - Ghorisvex's Teeth

5 Raptors 89
Plasma Pistol
Champion - Plasma Pistol, Power Maul

5 Raptors 94
Plasma Pistol
Champion - Plasma Pistol, Power Fist

5 Raptors 89
Plasma Pistol
Champion - Plasma Pistol, Power Sword


Detachment 2
Black Legion Battalion Detachment
(+5CP)
Council of Traitors (-1CP)

Chaos Sorcerer in TDA 121
Force Sword, Combi-plasma
MoS
Prescience, Delightful Agonies
WT - Indomitable

Dark Apostle 100
Dark Zealotry, Warp-Sight Plea
WT - Trusted War-Leader

2 Dark Disciples 10

5 Chaos Terminators 214
3 Combi-plasma, 1 Reaper Autocannon,
2 Chain Axes, 1 Power Fist, 1 Chain Fist
Champion - Combi-plasma, Lightning Claw

5 Chaos Space Marines 94
Plasma Gun
Champion - Combi-plasma, Power Axe

5 Chaos Space Marines 85
Missile Launcher

5 Chaos Space Marines 90
Lascannon

10 Chaos Cultists 52
Heavy Stubber


Detachment 3
Questor Traitoris Super-Heavy Detachment


Renegade Knight 518
2 x Avenger Gatling Cannon+Heavy Flamer
Stormspear Rocket Pod, Heavy Stubber

Renegade Armiger 174
2 x Armiger Autocannon, Heavy Stubber

Renegade Armiger 177
Thermal Spear, Reaper Chain-cleaver, Meltagun

TOTAL: 2,000pts



So the general idea is for the Host to use the Lord's charge boost to get into combat Turn 1, hitting whatever key units they can; heavy weapon squads, backfield troops, etc, having first weakened their target with plasma pistol fire. The TDA + Sorc do similar, aiming for the more juicy/expensive targets. 4 plasma guns (plus Reaper AC) with Endless Cacophony and -ideally- Prescience should put a reasonably solid dent in something important!

The Warglaive Armiger moves up to midfield, supported by the plasma CSM unit.

The other 2 CSM squads hang back, using their heavy weapons to take potshots at whatever targets come their way. Dark Apostle (and Disciples, 10pts spare!) goes between them to use Warp-Sight Plea on whichever needs it (probably Lascannon unless I need to use the Flakk Missile Stratagem on the ML), otherwise he's just there to regain used CP.

Most of the heavy firepower comes from the twin-Gat Knight (24 shots a turn ftw!!!) and the Helverin Armiger. Cultists (which are there more because I had 50pts left over than anything) can hold a rear objective and/or provide the Knight with a little bit of deep strike bubble wrap.

Total of 10CP plus 3-ish back from Trusted War-Leader, so not bad there, probably used if needed for rerolling Turn 1 charges on the Host, then double shoot on the termis.


Any thoughts/suggestions are very welcome, especially if you think there's a better way to spend the spare 62pts than on the Cultists+Disciples? The list is still quite flexible as to what goes in, the only units set in stone (already built) are the TDA squad and Sorc, as they're my 1st + 2nd for the ETL!

Thanks!

#2
SanguinaryGuardsman

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If you dropped the cultists+armigers you could have a 2nd knight with chainsword/gauntlet and ram into your opponents face and force them to deal with it.  

 

Most importantly, wait for the chaos knights codex to come out before list building!  


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#3
Lysimachus

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Fair point on the Codex, this is very much dependant on what we get there!

On the 2 Knight suggestion, it's a nice idea, but I need 3 Knights to fill out the minimum Super Heavy Detachment slots, hence the cheaper Armigers?

Thanks!

#4
Closet Skeleton

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I wouldn't bother with the 10 cultists.

 

I'd want one of those raptor units to be warp talons. You could also go for a jump pack sorcerer in the host raptoral with Tip of the Claw and that would free up your warlord to take flames of spite, might even be worth giving up the 1 cp by rolling all the black legion into one detachment.

 

I'm not sure you have enough units for prescience and warp sighted plea to be useful. Might want Soultearer portent to soup up Ghorisvex's teeth or more likely Benediction of darkness to keep your terminators around a little longer.


Edited by Closet Skeleton, 22 June 2019 - 07:57 PM.

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#5
Lysimachus

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Some excellent points CS, thanks! I like the thought of including a squad of Talons, I was avoiding them for fluff reasons (minimal daemonic stuff) but I guess I could counts-as their rules as some kind of specialised elite equipment, and the no overwatch would be very useful if I'm trying to tie up shooty units.

TDA Sorc is a definite include, I know Jump Sorc is strictly better but I'm super happy with the conversion I've done from the new Termis! Prescience was my first pick for him because he's with the TDA plasma squad, so it was an attempt to avoid 1s? He does have Delightful Agonies as well for added protection of the squad though?

With regard to the DA's powers, he can't drop in with the Raptors or the TDA so I was trying to think about how to use him backfield, hence the CP recovery trait. The -1 to hit prayer could be useful instead, I was just thinking that a 2+ to hit on a Lascannon (or a 1+ to hit with a Flakk missile) might be good for sniping vehicles? But I guess he could try to move up with the Plas CSM squad...?

Anyway, an updated list below swapping the Cultists for: upgrading 1 Raptor squad to Warp Talons, using the extra 20ish pts to put another Plasma pistol in each of the 2 Raptor units (so 3 each, not too bad!) and for an Icon of Excess on the TDA (they're already Slaanesh, they'll be dropping up close and they're carrying some high power CC weapons, so it seemed a potentially very good boost for 10pts?) Oh, and 1pt still left over, so shoved a Chain Axe on one of the firebase Champs!


Black Hammers (Black Legion)/Questor Traitoris 2,000 pts

Battle Forged (+3CP)

Detachment 1
Black Legion Outrider Detachment
(+1CP)
Host Raptorial (-1CP)

Chaos Lord with Jump Pack 93
WT - The Tip of the Claw
Relic - Ghorisvex's Teeth

5 Warp Talons 120

5 Raptors 99
2 Plasma Pistols
Champion - Plasma Pistol, Power Fist

5 Raptors 94
2 Plasma Pistols
Champion - Plasma Pistol, Power Maul


Detachment 2
Black Legion Battalion Detachment
(+5CP)
Council of Traitors (-1CP)

Chaos Sorcerer in TDA 121
Force Sword, Combi-plasma
MoS
Prescience, Delightful Agonies
WT - Indomitable

Dark Apostle 100
Dark Zealotry, Warp-Sight Plea
WT - Trusted War-Leader

2 Dark Disciples 10

5 Chaos Terminators 224
3 Combi-plasma, 1 Reaper Autocannon,
2 Chain Axes, 1 Power Fist, 1 Chain Fist
Icon of Excess
Champion - Combi-plasma, Lightning Claw

5 Chaos Space Marines 94
Plasma Gun
Champion - Combi-plasma, Power Axe

5 Chaos Space Marines 86
Missile Launcher
Champion - Bolter, Chain Axe

5 Chaos Space Marines 90
Lascannon


Detachment 3
Questor Traitoris Super-Heavy Detachment


Renegade Knight 518
2 x Avenger Gatling Cannon+Heavy Flamer
Stormspear Rocket Pod, Heavy Stubber

Renegade Armiger 174
2 x Armiger Autocannon, Heavy Stubber

Renegade Armiger 177
Thermal Spear, Reaper Chain-cleaver, Meltagun

TOTAL: 2,000pts

#6
Lysimachus

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Black Hammers (Black Legion)/Questor Traitoris 2,000 pts

Battle Forged (+3CP)

Detachment 1
Black Legion Outrider Detachment
(+1CP)
Host Raptorial (-1CP)

Chaos Lord with Jump Pack 98
Plasma Pistol
WT - The Tip of the Claw
Relic - Ghorisvex's Teeth

5 Warp Talons 120

5 Raptors 99
2 Plasma Pistols
Champion - Plasma Pistol, Power Fist

5 Raptors 94
2 Plasma Pistols
Champion - Plasma Pistol, Power Maul


Detachment 2
Black Legion Battalion Detachment
(+5CP)
Council of Traitors (-1CP)

Chaos Sorcerer in TDA 121with MoS
Force Sword, Combi-plasma
Prescience, Delightful Agonies
WT - Indomitable

Dark Apostle 100
Dark Zealotry, Warp-Sight Plea
WT - Trusted War-Leader

2 Dark Disciples 10

5 Chaos Terminators 224with MoS
3 Combi-plasma, 1 Reaper Autocannon,
2 Chain Axes, 1 Power Fist, 1 Chain Fist,
Icon of Excess
Champion - Combi-plasma, Lightning Claw

5 Chaos Space Marines 94
Plasma Gun
Champion - Combi-plasma, Power Axe

5 Chaos Space Marines 86
Missile Launcher
Champion - Bolter, Chain Axe

5 Chaos Space Marines 91
Lascannon
Champion - Bolter, Chain Axe


Detachment 3
Questor Traitoris Iconoclast Household Super-Heavy Detachment
(+3CP)
Corrupted Heirlooms (-1CP)

Knight Despoiler 516
2 x Rapid Fire Battle Cannon,
Stormspear Rocket Pod, 3 x Heavy Stubber
Relic - Helm of Warp Sight

War Dog 172
2 x War Dog Autocannon, Heavy Stubber

War Dog 174
Thermal Spear, Reaper Chain-cleaver, Meltagun

TOTAL: 1,999pts (9CP)

So, a little update based on the new Chaos Knights dex. No massive changes, but decided due to the pts increase on the AGC I'd go with 2 RFBCs instead, which due to the Flamer costing so much more than the Stubber is actually a couple of pts cheaper overall. I know the twin AGC gets a guaranteed 24 shots, but the twin RFBC should still average 14 shots at double the range and 2 higher Str, which also matches better with the Stormspear? Paid the CP to give him the Relic Helm too, no mods on all shooting seems like a no-brainer?

Ended up with 7pts spare so shoved a Plas pistol on the Jump Lord and a Chain Axe on the last CSM squad Champ too!
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#7
Prot

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The dual RFBC is plenty good, and very underrated. The thing is with Iconoclast I advice you keep it moving, and don't be afraid to break ranks for the bonus stomps.  It's something that requires timing and practice, but it's maximizing Iconoclast if you're not entirely conservative.

 

One of the AGC advantages is much needed screen clearing, but Termies are decent at that. 

 

That said the one thing I've grown to like since the codex came out is combi melta on my Termies (usually 3 per squad regardless of size). I like to fire both weapons, and the -1 is just brutal on overcharged plasma. Melta + Bolters with VotLW is actually decent). 

 

I think for a fun, thematic list it looks great as is. Lots of different flavours in there and that'll lead to some fun games imho.


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#8
SanguinaryGuardsman

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Not sure how I feel about the dark apostle in this list.  What is he going to use Warp Sight Plea on?  

 

Give him Omen of Potency and the mark of khorne so he can bust some ass.  


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#9
Lysimachus

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Thanks guys!

@Prot: Great comments, thanks! The TDA are built now, so no changing loadout, but I agree on firing both parts if clearing screens, of course without overcharging! Save that for if they go for a bigger target!

@SG: The original idea for the apostle was simply as a CP source, firstly by being a 2nd HQ for the Battalion, and secondly by his Warlord Trait. However, I couldn't see any way of joining him to the CC/deep strike elements (no option for JP/TDA) so figured he'd end up as a backfielder? Thus the choice of warp sight, which would mean a BS 2+ Lascannon for sniping anything juicy? (Or combo with the ML + Flakk Stratagem if any flyers come along!)

That said, as you point out that might be a waste of his potential? I guess if Marked/Prayered up as you suggest, he could run up midfield with the plasma CSM and Melta War Dog?

#10
Tokugawa

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Comparing with other chaos choices at this(160-200) points range, e.g. DP or Disco, melee wardog is weak.
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#11
Lysimachus

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Hmmm, possibly comparing them one for one within a vacuum. Even then, I don't think the difference is all that big, his shooting on the way in is surely stronger and being Iconoclast adds to his CC power? But the key thing is that the DP/Disco wouldn't fulfil the requirements for a Super-Heavy Detachment and I'd lose several CP?

#12
Tokugawa

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Hmmm, possibly comparing them one for one within a vacuum. Even then, I don't think the difference is all that big, his shooting on the way in is surely stronger and being Iconoclast adds to his CC power? But the key thing is that the DP/Disco wouldn't fulfil the requirements for a Super-Heavy Detachment and I'd lose several CP?

 
Melee wardog is weak, and you can fill the last slot in SuperHeavy detc with shooting wardog/moirax.





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