Mortarian

[happyslugger]

Hi folks, hope all is well.

 

Just wondered if anyone is still using Morty in their lists?  

 

I do not play competitively or comps but I have stopped taking him as he just doesn't get the work done 9/10.  He is often lucky to survive turn one.

 

Anyone else having much luck?  What do we think GW could do to make the Daemon Primarchs better/more useable going forwards?

 

When I compare him on paper to Gman it just appears that Gman offers more than he does and is 70 pts cheaper.

 

Any thoughts?

Edited June 26, 2019 by happyslugger

[Special Officer Doofy]

Gman can hide behind infantry. Mortarion can't even hide behind most ruins...

 

For his points he should be tougher. He's the right strength as far as attacking ability, but you're right, he rarely makes it into combat. One more toughness and maybe a standard 2+ save. It's not game changing but for supposedly being the the toughest (maybe Vulkan is slightly tougher) primarch he has the same stats as the wizard of the bunch, which is bull:cuss. If magnus has T7 Mort should be T8.

 

And if chapter masters give reroll all hits, shouldn't the primarchs give reroll all hits too and not just 1's since they are higher up the totem pole? Mortarion is rarely used in death guard armys anymore but Gman is a staple in every ultramarines army I have ever seen.

 

These are just my thoughts. These small changes would make him slightly tougher and his aura better.

 

What do you think happyslugger?

[Indefragable]

Gman can hide behind infantry. Mortarion can't even hide behind most ruins...

 

For his points he should be tougher. He's the right strength as far as attacking ability, but you're right, he rarely makes it into combat. One more toughness and maybe a standard 2+ save. It's not game changing but for supposedly being the the toughest (maybe Vulkan is slightly tougher) primarch he has the same stats as the wizard of the bunch, which is bull:cuss. If magnus has T7 Mort should be T8.

 

And if chapter masters give reroll all hits, shouldn't the primarchs give reroll all hits too and not just 1's since they are higher up the totem pole? Mortarion is rarely used in death guard armys anymore but Gman is a staple in every ultramarines army I have ever seen.

 

These are just my thoughts. These small changes would make him slightly tougher and his aura better.

 

What do you think happyslugger?

 

What if Morty was -1 To Wound?

 

To your point, Mortarion was one of the toughest Primarchs to begin with (Vulkan and/or maybe Ferrus were the only other contenders) back in the day, but now that he's had 9,500 years of Nurglifying, he should take the cake for single toughest Primarch.

[McElMcNinja]

It would be a game changer if he was T8 with a 2+ save. Otherwise you are spending extra points on Deathshroud, Warp Time, etc that take away from other units you could be using for board control and things like that. Once Morty is gone you basically have 1/2 the effectiveness as your opponent.

I've seen him run with Magnus and Knights, but that gets rather expensive (and cheesy). Turn one the knights eliminate any real threats as Magnus and Morty charge across the board. Plus with that drop count, going first has good odds.

[Gederas]

Gman can hide behind infantry. Mortarion can't even hide behind most ruins...

 

For his points he should be tougher. He's the right strength as far as attacking ability, but you're right, he rarely makes it into combat. One more toughness and maybe a standard 2+ save. It's not game changing but for supposedly being the the toughest (maybe Vulkan is slightly tougher) primarch he has the same stats as the wizard of the bunch, which is bull:cuss. If magnus has T7 Mort should be T8.

 

And if chapter masters give reroll all hits, shouldn't the primarchs give reroll all hits too and not just 1's since they are higher up the totem pole? Mortarion is rarely used in death guard armys anymore but Gman is a staple in every ultramarines army I have ever seen.

 

These are just my thoughts. These small changes would make him slightly tougher and his aura better.

 

What do you think happyslugger?

I can tell you why Mortarion isn't Toughness 8.

 

I did a 2v2 3k point game against Space Marines, and misread the Putrescent Vitality psychic power (missed the INFANTRY requirement) and made him Toughness 8 on the first turn. He ended up ACTUALLY tanking the enemy team's entire shooting (literally the only thing that didn't shoot him was the Primaris Ancient who was out of range) and survived just above where he'd be bracketed to his second tier.

 

Toughness 8 and the Miasma of Pestilence psychic power, combined with his 3+/4++/5+++ saves means he's damn near un-killable. Something as strong as Mortarion being Toughness 8 means most dedicated anti-tank can only wound him on a 4+, and the normal way of dealing with any Nurgle unit (weight of fire/death of a thousand cuts) means he'd only be wounded on 6s....

 

His Auras being buffed? That could work. Him getting T8 with the stuff you can normally do? He'd manage to out-cheese Eldar cheese-lists.

[happyslugger]

I just look at what the UM get with Gman and I don't think Morty is comparable..he's much worse. My son plays UMs and Gman is a solid choice.

 

Want to play gunline, Gman can help with rerolls everywhere. You can send him forward as a beat stick...oh but you can't shoot him due to that single scout there...he can be used to make you think hard about charges..then if you do manage to kill him..oh look..he got back up again with his 2+/3++.

 

You compare Gman and two vitrix honour guard to Morty and 3 deathshroud and it's even worse. Gman and two guard are less than the cost of Morty alone (IRC).

 

Morty should be the toughest to kill, so maybe a native -1 to hit which can be increased to -2 with spells/strats.

 

He doesn't synergize well with DG either..

 

In my opinion he either needs a large point drop or needs a rework. At the minute he's an £85 paperweight.

[McElMcNinja]

As a bonus for the UM's is that the units that are used to protect Gman are units that were going to be included in the army regardless if he was used. The units used to protect Morty are 156 points that would not be used if he wasn't coming and those guys are only good for one turn. After that Morty is gone and they are the slowest unit in the game, hopefully there is an objective near by because they will never reach combat.

Maybe if DG had access to Warp Time this would be a different discussion. Right now that's more additional points being spent to help keep Morty alive.

This isn't just DG players who've noticed this. Any decent tournament player will tell you he's not worth it. To many points spent for what he could potentially do vs what he actually does accomplish.

I enjoy running him, but he is not for competitive lists. I still occasionally run him, but that is determined by which tournament I am going to and what I expect to get out of it.

[Special Officer Doofy]

 

 

Gman can hide behind infantry. Mortarion can't even hide behind most ruins...

 

For his points he should be tougher. He's the right strength as far as attacking ability, but you're right, he rarely makes it into combat. One more toughness and maybe a standard 2+ save. It's not game changing but for supposedly being the the toughest (maybe Vulkan is slightly tougher) primarch he has the same stats as the wizard of the bunch, which is bull:cuss. If magnus has T7 Mort should be T8.

 

And if chapter masters give reroll all hits, shouldn't the primarchs give reroll all hits too and not just 1's since they are higher up the totem pole? Mortarion is rarely used in death guard armys anymore but Gman is a staple in every ultramarines army I have ever seen.

 

These are just my thoughts. These small changes would make him slightly tougher and his aura better.

 

What do you think happyslugger?

I can tell you why Mortarion isn't Toughness 8.

 

I did a 2v2 3k point game against Space Marines, and misread the Putrescent Vitality psychic power (missed the INFANTRY requirement) and made him Toughness 8 on the first turn. He ended up ACTUALLY tanking the enemy team's entire shooting (literally the only thing that didn't shoot him was the Primaris Ancient who was out of range) and survived just above where he'd be bracketed to his second tier.

 

Toughness 8 and the Miasma of Pestilence psychic power, combined with his 3+/4++/5+++ saves means he's damn near un-killable. Something as strong as Mortarion being Toughness 8 means most dedicated anti-tank can only wound him on a 4+, and the normal way of dealing with any Nurgle unit (weight of fire/death of a thousand cuts) means he'd only be wounded on 6s....

 

His Auras being buffed? That could work. Him getting T8 with the stuff you can normally do? He'd manage to out-cheese Eldar cheese-lists.

No offense but in a 3,000 point game if your opponent can't kill one T7 4++/5+++ 18 wound unit turn one they are either a melee list themselves or a terrible, terrible shooting list with no anti-tank. 3k points is alot.

 

We are comparing him to Gman point for point, and Gman brings much more to the table for his cost.

 

If you think T8 is too much, and maybe it is, then they need to scale back a whole bunch of other units. The toughest primarch, now a NURGLE daemon prince as well, should be as tough if not tougher then tanks and equal to knights. Magnus is the same toughness which is just silly.

 

Then would agree if you think Mort is perfectly costed that Gman is under priced at least?

[Special Officer Doofy]

If you do the math, 4 space marine Centurion Devastators with 2 lascannon and Centurion missile launchers point wise comes out to 460pts, 10 less then Mortarion. Doing the math of their Combined 8 lascannon shots and average 8 missile shots, with a lord nearby for reroll ones and factoring in morts 4++/5+++ that's 7.4 wounds average. That's anti tank. So if your opponent has 1k of his 3k points as anti tank that's almost enough to bring him down using 1/3 of your army.

 

Same math but they are ultramarines and next to gman rerolling all hits and wounds it comes out to an average 11.2 wounds from just those 460pts.

 

4 obliterators are 460pts too. Assuming average rolls and next to a chaos lord it comes out to just over 8 wounds on Mortarion as well, almost half his wounds. So again 1000 points(ish) of anti tank with barely any support will shoot him off in one turn.

 

Giving him miasma (IF you get to go first, IF you pass the dice rolls, and If it doesn't get denied) at most increases his survivability by 16.66%. Giving him T8 without a small point bump might be too much, but he's far weaker then you are making him out to be. Don't get me wrong I love Mortarion and his lore and the death guard in general and that's why I play them, but for his points he's fluffy not crunchy.

[Panzer]

 

Gman can hide behind infantry. Mortarion can't even hide behind most ruins...

 

For his points he should be tougher. He's the right strength as far as attacking ability, but you're right, he rarely makes it into combat. One more toughness and maybe a standard 2+ save. It's not game changing but for supposedly being the the toughest (maybe Vulkan is slightly tougher) primarch he has the same stats as the wizard of the bunch, which is bull:cuss. If magnus has T7 Mort should be T8.

 

And if chapter masters give reroll all hits, shouldn't the primarchs give reroll all hits too and not just 1's since they are higher up the totem pole? Mortarion is rarely used in death guard armys anymore but Gman is a staple in every ultramarines army I have ever seen.

 

These are just my thoughts. These small changes would make him slightly tougher and his aura better.

 

What do you think happyslugger?

I can tell you why Mortarion isn't Toughness 8.

 

I did a 2v2 3k point game against Space Marines, and misread the Putrescent Vitality psychic power (missed the INFANTRY requirement) and made him Toughness 8 on the first turn. He ended up ACTUALLY tanking the enemy team's entire shooting (literally the only thing that didn't shoot him was the Primaris Ancient who was out of range) and survived just above where he'd be bracketed to his second tier.

 

Toughness 8 and the Miasma of Pestilence psychic power, combined with his 3+/4++/5+++ saves means he's damn near un-killable. Something as strong as Mortarion being Toughness 8 means most dedicated anti-tank can only wound him on a 4+, and the normal way of dealing with any Nurgle unit (weight of fire/death of a thousand cuts) means he'd only be wounded on 6s....

 

His Auras being buffed? That could work. Him getting T8 with the stuff you can normally do? He'd manage to out-cheese Eldar cheese-lists.

 

 

That's just one game and apparently plagued by either bad lists or bad luck.

[Prot]

Complaining about Guilliman isn’t going to make Morty better. I did go 4-1 with him at an ITC GT last year and faced some nasty stuff.

 

Any character is in big trouble these days and that’s a fact. I play Ultras as well and have gone through a lot of struggle lately trying to get him to really pay off. I pulled him from my lists entirely.

 

GW is moving away from aura hammer I believe so every army has that working against them if they put a lot of eggs in the character basket.

 

With Mortarion he is so destructive when he reaches the back lines, and that’s where he pays off. But it’s still a huge gamble. I think his bodyguards are a must. I’ve tanked TAU and a full rerolling Helblaster squad with them long enough to heal him.

 

He does synergize well with Daemons and the psychic phase. I’ve always found his auras strong.

 

When I finally stopped playing him is when Deathwatch got super hot for obvious reasons but they’ve cooled down a bit since.

[Special Officer Doofy]

It's not so much anyone is complaining about Guilliman to make Mortarion better but comparing him to Mortarion for their cost to see if Mortarion is underpowered. And you have to compare the two when benchmarking one (as in us talking about Mortarion), they are fluff wise both primarchs of Legions and recently fighting one on one in the plague wars and game wise both are Lord's of war worth 400+ points with expectations of having similar impacts on the table.

 

I'm happy characters are in trouble because the whole less then 10w characters being able to hide in plain sight is often abused and can be over powered.

 

You say GW is moving away from auras but given that Guilliman and Mortarion are newer units with respect to most units from every codex, Guilliman has two auras and are two of the (if not the two) STRONGEST auras in the game and if you count Mortarion's warlord aura and his host of plagues as an aura he has 4 of them. Seems like auras are still in style and GW is pushing for them.

 

Taking the body guards with Mort is a pain, they cost alot, don't give him the extra attack like they do other characters and movement wise move 1/3 as far and advance 1/2 as far. They are good for a turn one sponge.

 

I think the OP is spot on that Mortarion 9/10 fails to live up to his point expectations.

 

Guilliman's issues are nothing to do with him, it's that the units around him are underwhelming right now. When any other marine unit gets a buff or cost reduction, that makes him that much better. His issues will most likely be rectified much sooner as GW continues to push Primaris and new marine units.

[happyslugger]

Yes I am not moaning about Gman at all, but point for point Morty isn't worth it and Gman wins.

 

I would like to see Morty drop in points significantly or deathshroud drop further..look at the new UM honour guard (vitrix I think) as an example..cheaper and can keep up with characters.

 

Or he needs some additional help to save getting blown off the table turn 1. I like the idea of him being minus 1 to hit with the ability to be buffed to minus 2. Or we could bump him to T8 and have fun for a few weeks before everyone moans about him being OP and he gets nerfed lol

 

How do we go about sending feedback to GW?

Edited June 29, 2019 by happyslugger

[Zombs]

I think he can work in a semi-competitive setting. But in my opinion you HAVE to take his bodyguards. Also Ahriman is a must + some Nurgle daemons stuff for board control and usefull spells. He can survive first turn if the list is set up properly imo.

Edited June 29, 2019 by Zombs

[Wolf Lord Loki]

What about apocalypse? Would he fair better there do you think?

 

I think in small games he is a big target and due to his points cost you aren't likely to have enough 'other' credable threats to distract the enemies guns

 

Also what about building scenery big enough to block line of sight to him? If it gets put in the middle of the table you should be able to block some of the incoming fire

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I think he can work in a semi-competitive setting. But in my opinion you HAVE to take his bodyguards. Also Ahriman is a must + some Nurgle daemons stuff for board control and usefull spells. He can survive first turn if the list is set up properly imo.

I believe ITC is a little more than just “semi-competitive,” and Prot has already stated he had some success with a list that included Mortarion... and that was before all the changes from the most recent FAQ.

 

I’d be curious to see how much better Mortarion would fair in the new meta.

[Zombs]

What about apocalypse? Would he fair better there do you think?

 

I think in small games he is a big target and due to his points cost you aren't likely to have enough 'other' credable threats to distract the enemies guns

 

Also what about building scenery big enough to block line of sight to him? If it gets put in the middle of the table you should be able to block some of the incoming fire

 

Imo it's the opposite actually ahaha. In smaller games Mortarion feels more powerful because the enemy has less points to build a balanced list so he will have less recources to deal with him. In apocalypse I think he will die even faster. If you manage to find a big enough los blocking terrain that's great! But I've never seen someone be able to completely cover him since his wings are so do damn wide lol.

 

 

 

I think he can work in a semi-competitive setting. But in my opinion you HAVE to take his bodyguards. Also Ahriman is a must + some Nurgle daemons stuff for board control and usefull spells. He can survive first turn if the list is set up properly imo.

I believe ITC is a little more than just “semi-competitive,” and Prot has already stated he had some success with a list that included Mortarion... and that was before all the changes from the most recent FAQ.

 

I’d be curious to see how much better Mortarion would fair in the new meta.

 

 

Ofc props to him for being able to make it work, but I think that was several months ago, now the meta is completely different and I don't think he will survive 1 turn vs a decent list. Up untill now I've never seen someone having consistent good results with him, but ofc I hope for some changes. Maybe if the meta will shift away from knights and people start bringing less AT he will make a comeback...

Edited June 30, 2019 by Zombs

[Panzer]

What about apocalypse? Would he fair better there do you think?

 

I think in small games he is a big target and due to his points cost you aren't likely to have enough 'other' credable threats to distract the enemies guns

 

Also what about building scenery big enough to block line of sight to him? If it gets put in the middle of the table you should be able to block some of the incoming fire

 

The new Apocalypse is so different, I don't think it's possible to give a good estimation for such a thing just yet. On one hand it looks like everything is rather fraguile with so few wounds and bad saves once they get a big blast marker, but on the other hand there are also way less shots flying around and both players share their turn (plus the Assault Order is really really good for melee units).

[apologist]

[,...]

I enjoy running him, but he is not for competitive lists. .

 

Seems bang on the money to me. Playing mainly narratively, it's nice to see him occasionally; but I think it's a feature rather than a bug that he's not an 'auto-take'. It stops him becoming obnoxious and avoid the old 'world-destroying star vampire turning up to knock over a water tower' trope we saw so much in 3rd edition.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I think you are thinking second edition - in 3rd ed., special characters were strictly only with your opponent's permission.  That said, I understand where you are coming from. :)

[Closet Skeleton]

I think you are thinking second edition - in 3rd ed., special characters were strictly only with your opponent's permission.  That said, I understand where you are coming from.

 

The 'opponents permission only' thing was a codex rule in 3rd ed not a core rule and the Necron codex had no such restrictions.

 

Necrons didn't get special characters in 2nd edition. Closest thing to a god in 2nd ed was the Daemon Princes that the Daemon World army lists had to take as their leaders and those things litter the battlefield on mass these days.

Edited July 5, 2019 by Closet Skeleton