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2k Brigade need fine tuning


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#1
sturguard

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Hey folks,

I was messing with my models today and seeing what bits/ pieces I need to add to my existing force and I decided to try and make a bridge. I know SW has some issues with top tier builds, so I kind of went the other direction, with so many folks bringing high damage weapons, why not go all infantry, yeah, those lascannons will kill a model dead, but its only one model. So this is what I came up with-

 

 

HQ

Bjorn

Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf, wulfen stone, storm shield, frost sword- I probably should change this to pfist or thunderhammer?

Rune Priest

 

Troops

6x5 Grey Hunters 

 

Elites

5 Terminators, 4 with storm shield and storm bolters, 1 with storm bolter and pfist

5 Terminators, 5 with combiplasma and storm shields- Ill probably take off the storm shield or combiplasma off one and give him a pfist or thunderhammer

5 Wulfen, 3 storm shield/hammers, 1 axe, leader with dual claws

 

FA

5 wolves

3 Swiftclaws

1 attack bike with mm

 

Heavy

5 Longfangs 3 ML, 1 Lascannon

5 Longfangs 3 ML, 1 Lascannon

5 Longfangs 2 Heavy Bolter, 2 ML

 

Lots of bodies, terminators are resilient, wulfen are resilient, I have decent firepower, 4 lascannons, 8 ML, lots of plasma.

 

I think to refine, I should stick a plasmagun in each grey hunter squad. I need a bit more close combat out of my lord and probably the terminators too.

 

Honestly, this list is probably better if I just drop the 3 squads of GHs, and the fast attack choices and add the loyal 32. I could keep everything else, and get 2 more command points and have almost 200 pts back.With that, I could add either some more HQs or a unit of WG bikes with storm shields- yes I have the magnetized storm shields  I can put on my bikes.

 

In either case, the core is infantry, lots of bodies, the terminators, the wulfen, the longfangs. I could actually increase the wulfen to say 8 models to make them a bit less fragile. All models above are all painted, so I am just working with painted models, not whatever I can throw together from the codex.

 

Has anyone been playing all infantry?

 

Thanks!



#2
sturguard

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Ok, I think this is better-

 

Loyal 32- Brigade (5 cps)

200 pts

Company Commander

Lord Commissar

3x10 Infantry Squad with mortar team

 

SW Brigade

Bjorn

Rune Priest on Bike 

3x5 Grey Hunters with Plasmagun

5 Terminators- 4 of them with storm shield and storm bolter, pack leader has storm bolter and pfist

5 Terminators- 4 of them with storm shield and combiplasma, pack leader has chainfist and combiplasma

5 Wulfen, 3x hammer and shield, 1 axe, 1 leader with claws

 

Spearhead

Phobos Librarian

5 Longfangs - 2 HB, 2 ML

5 Longfangs- 3 ML, 1 LC

5 Longfangs- 3 ML, 1 LC

 

So without the phobos libby (or whatever the new guy is, I had 236 pts. I would suspect he is around 100 ish, so I should still have 100 plus points to add to the list). What do you think I should add?

 

I have 13 command points. I want to put my opponent in a bind, either try and wipe out the longfangs and disregard the incoming wulfen, terminators etc or shoot those guys and risk a few more rounds of punishing volley from the long fangs.

 

The other thing  I thought about including is a Vindicare Assassin as I have one painted in snow covered camo to help take out enemy characters and buffs. I could also increase the size of the wulfen squad, or add a lord on thunderwolf or bike (or jump pack).

 

A unit of aggressors might go well in this list too.

 

Any thoughts would be appreciated.


Edited by sturguard, 30 June 2019 - 10:49 PM.


#3
jbickb

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Looks like 15 cp by my count (dont forget 3 for battle forged)

So something you may not be aware of is there is a 2cp stratagem where as long as you have 85 points left in you list you can grab any assassin, it sort of let's you side board. Basically if you run into thousand sons, Tyranids, or any of the other myriad psy heavy armies boom a culexus. Lots of scary stratagems? Callidus is you friend. A sniper fit your needs? Send in the vindicare. Allows for a bit of flexibility.

Also your first list looks like a battalion (12 cp+3 for battle forged) so with Bjorn it would actually be one more CP than your second. And I think if you are looking at trying to mass infantry that might be a better list.

Edited by jbickb, 01 July 2019 - 10:55 AM.

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#4
sturguard

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jbickb,

 

Where is the 2 cp stratagem for that listed? Also, where would I find the up to date rules for assassins? The problem with the first list is there is alot of points wasted in FA that really arent effective.



#5
TiguriusX

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jbickb,

Where is the 2 cp stratagem for that listed? Also, where would I find the up to date rules for assassins? The problem with the first list is there is alot of points wasted in FA that really arent effective.


https://www.games-wo...March-epub-2019

assassin rules only available via march white dwarf

good news is digital back order edition is now available so you can ignore people on ebay selling for $40 or higher

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#6
sturguard

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Ok, I made some tweaks, but I am unsure on the final characters- no more brigade.

 

 

Battalion 

 

Bjorn

Sw Rune Priest on Bike

3x5 Grey Hunters with plasmagun in each squad

5 Scouts, plasma pistol, plasmagun, pack leader with plasmapistol, Wolf guard with combiplasma

 

Vanguard

Leader to be named late- I am thinking Arjac

5 Terminators, 4 with storm bolter and storm shield, 1 with storm bolter and powerfist

5 Terminators, 4 with combiplasma and storm shield, 1 with storm shield and wolf claw

5 wolfguard with jump packs, 5 with storm shield, 5 with storm bolter

 

Spearhead

Wolfguard Battle Leader with Jump pack

5 Long Fangs, 3 ML, 1 LC

5 Long Fangs, 3 ML, 1 LC

5 Long Fangs, 2 HB, 2 ML

 

So really there are only 2 things I am thinking of tweaking-

1 maybe swap out a unit of Helblasters for Long Fangs, just because they can take the assault version of the plasma and move and shoot whereas the long fangs and more stuck where they are.

 

Characters. I like the idea of Arjac, but lets face it, the wolfguard are not really loaded out for close combat (although I try to have a guy in each squad who can cause some pain). If I take Arjac I am really forced to skimp on points for the WGBL with jump pack. Also Arjac is obviously slow like the terminators. Im thinking a better option would be a more expensive version of the WGBL with jump pack and take a Lord with Jump pack so I can be more aggressive with him and the jump pack wolfguard and scouts. My thoughts are to land next to the scouts and use his rerolls to help the scouts hit with all their plasma. Really I could almost get 3 WGBLs in Jump packs, I could do 1 bare bones and leave him next to the long fangs for counter attack and they could use his reroll 1's to wound. Then I could put one near the wg terminators with the combiplasmas and Bjorn and use his reroll 1's to wound, and finally the third could come down with the scouts and wg with jump packs.

 

Thoughts? Im sure this isnt a great list, but it has a decent amount of shooting, no vehicles to shoot at so all those heavy weapons are pretty much wasted on me, the army is fairly resilient with lots of 3+ invul saves, none of the units are huge point sinks so no loss should sink me (losing Bjorn early would hurt but I have plenty of units to protect him) and I think its a fairly good representation of SW. Lots of characters, lots of infantry. Thoughts?

 

Oh and I have 11 Command Points, not too shabby there either.


Edited by sturguard, 05 July 2019 - 09:57 PM.


#7
sturguard

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Ok, as I look over the SW characters and equipment, I get the feeling that honestly, SW aren't that good at CC. At least the generic versions. The new CSM codex has far more options for beatstick characters and relics. I think Arjac, while not as mobile as a jump pack lord, is definitely far and away more of a beatstick. While not suffering -1 to hit with his hammer. So I think I am back to the Arjac and a cheap WGBL with combiplasma, honestly it seems SW are better off shooting than CC- you guys agree?



#8
TiguriusX

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IMHO space wolves are close quarter fighters

We shoot better than many and fight better than many

However we are not the best at either

I have decided to build around that concept and make flexible lists that change based on the opponent.

If my enemy is better at shooting i am probably better at melee

If my enemy is better at melee i am probably better at shooting

Hope that helps you find your list balance

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#9
sturguard

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Tigurius,

 

I would somewhat agree. I think in a pure setting, just codex units CSM are better at both if they want to be. Their havocs are just as good as our longfangs, their generic CSM squads can have chaincannons and are better at shooting and they cant get +3 command points for being Red Corsairs. Warp Time is an awesome power, and Lord Discordants are very good at melee for their points.

 

That being said its a new codex and SW have been a bit underpowered for awhile now, but the point is to try and make something that can pull its weight and represents SW. I am just really unimpressed with all the big melee weapons (thammer, chainfist etc, anything that does any sort of damage is -1 to hit) So again I went back to the drawing board and I think I am going to try the big 3- Njal, Logan and Bjorn as my HQs. Maybe thats overkill- however my rune priest on bike was 130 and Njal is 30 or so points more. Logan is 170 while Arjac is 145. For 25 more points you can reroll all misses, thats huge.

 

So I am thinking Logan can baby sit at least 2 of the squad of Long Fangs and give them the ability to reroll their misses. In fact, think now the Long Fangs can be mobile. Hitting on 4+ rerollable is 75% hit rate, which is better than a 3+, its probably somewhere along the same lines as 3+ rerolling 1's I would guess. Njal is vastly superior to a normal Rune Priest as he gets +1 to cast and knows 3 powers not to mention his other abilities and stats and Bjorn is well, Bjorn.

 

So do I need to invest in an assassin and if so, what do I cut out, everything seems to have a roll in the list. The other thing I was thinking is, is it worth it to put a wolfguard with storm shield in each Long Fang squad, how much is that 3+ invul with 2 wounds going to help out. Obviously in this list I am relying on the long fangs doing alot of work, so Ill need to get those rerolls with Logan and protecting them with storm caller and the -1 to hit stratagem. 

 

Any thoughts?


Edited by sturguard, 06 July 2019 - 12:21 AM.


#10
jbickb

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I agree with TiguriusX. We are better than average at both but not king of either.

That said our +1 to hit on charge makes our charges quite strong and makes thunder hammer lords absolutely brutal as they get 2+ reroll ones to hit on the charge/intervention. I would honestly make that battle leader a lord unless you plan on tying him to Bjorn which does limit the flexibility of your 2 main cc beat sticks
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#11
sturguard

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jbickb,

 

What do you think of Logan, Njal and Bjorn? A lord with jump pack, thunderhammer, storm shield is on his way to being the same points as Logan. That being said, my warlord trait is fairly limited.



#12
jbickb

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Njal rocks and is definitely our best psyker though hmyou pay the premium points for it.

I do love logan and I have had some luck with him. He also will actually work a smidge better with the wolf guard loadout you've chosen as he let's them reroll their shooting attacks. I would choose him if not a jump smash lord.

Bjorn is always yes imho.

You will need a 4th hq to fit your current set up and I would recommend and iron priest to roll with Bjorn and take the armor of russ to get him an invuln
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#13
TiguriusX

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So I am thinking Logan can baby sit at least 2 of the squad of Long Fangs and give them the ability to reroll their misses. In fact, think now the Long Fangs can be mobile. Hitting on 4+ rerollable is 75% hit rate, which is better than a 3+, its probably somewhere along the same lines as 3+ rerolling 1's I would guess. Njal is vastly superior to a normal Rune Priest as he gets +1 to cast and knows 3 powers not to mention his other abilities and stats and Bjorn is well, Bjorn.

 

 

Any thoughts?

 

The entire value of Long Fangs is they don't need a support character nearby

 

They reroll 1s and have a BS of 3.  Adding logan for his large amount of points gives a minor mathematical increase in hitting.  Many don't feel that is worth ihis point value.

 

It is important to note you don't get to reroll all misses with Logan and long fangs that walk.

 

The modifier comes after the roll.  So if you roll a 3 it would be a "hit" before modifiers so no reroll from Logan.  The modifier for a heavy weapon would then activate turning it into a miss.

 

 

 

Page 3 of the BRB errata

 

Q: If a rule or ability grants a re-roll on, for example, ‘hit rolls of 1’ (such as a Space Marine Captain’s Rites of Battle ability) does that effect trigger before or after applying modifiers to the hit rolls?

 

A: Re-rolls always happen before modifiers, so the re-roll ability is triggered before applying modifiers.

 

For example, let’s imagine a Space Marine (Ballistic Skill 3+) moves and fires a heavy bolter (a Heavy 3 weapon) whilst within range of a Space Marine Captain’s Rites of Battle ability (allowing you to re-roll hit rolls of 1). The hit dice are rolled and result in a 1, 2 and 5. Re-rolls are applied before modifiers. In this example a single dice is re-rolled because of the Captain’s ability, this time resulting in a 3.

 

Modifiers are applied after re-rolls. In this example there is a -1 modifier to the hit rolls for moving and firing a Heavy weapon. That means that the post-re-roll scores of 2, 3 and 5 are modified to 1, 2 and 4. Comparing the final results to the model’s Ballistic Skill, only one shot hits the target.

 

https://www.warhamme...rulebook_en.pdf

 

 

Space Wolves make a decent psyker spam.  My winning list from league used that as the trick.  They would drop down with a bodyguard of WGTDA having SS and smite and LL the hell out of everything.  1CP for a D6 living lightning as well.  It was fun and worth considering.


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#14
sturguard

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It isnt just the increased chance of hitting, I guess its more that it allows you to put long fangs in areas that normally maybe they wouldnt go- or in this case keeping your whole force somewhat together- ie the long fangs can move and not just be hanging in the backfield. Obviously Logan isnt bad walking behind all those wolf guard with combiplasmas, thats alot of firepower that gets to be rerolled on 3's. Is it worth 170 pts? Probably not, but I was just comparing to say a standard lord where youll still pay 120-130 so in essence its 30-40 more points. If I could take a 4th squad of long fangs I would instead of logan, but that isnt an option, first, I wouldnt ever take 4 squads and next I dont have the painted models.

 

Honestly thats what alot of this is about, Im trying to use just models I have painted. This isnt ever going to be a fully optimized list, because we know its all about taking 3 of this and 3 of that and gaining some sort of advantage on the battlefield. I have probably 5000 if not more in models painted, but cant field one of those armies as I never had a desire to paint the same thing over and over. Now I can make little tweaks, like what to equip terminators with as I have magnetized arms and fortunately I just have like 20 of them. I also have a bunch of long fangs too and dreadnoughts (all different) but I think in this case probably an all infantry army is the best I can manage. Im going to tinker around with it more, I still like the idea of saving 85 pts for an assassin since I do happen to have 2 of them painted in artic camo.


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